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What's better?, Push then title, or title then push?
Naked Snake
post May 11 2005, 01:06 PM
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At times we have seen a debuting wrestler (think Carlito) win the title in one of the earliest television/PPV matches in their career and then get a push.

Other times we have seen wrestlers get a push and then win the title and then continue the push, but not as strong as the initial one that made them a contender (think Batista).

So what do you think is better in hopes of getting a wrestler over. For me, I like the anticipation of a wrestler finally winning a title or regaining it, but they lose a little juice as soon as they hold it once, because it's anti climatic. A wrestler winning a title just like that with no real push before does not tell a story, however. Hmmm...
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King Cucaracha
post May 11 2005, 01:10 PM
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Push then title.

There's only so many times you can assume the champion underestimates the challenger and loses. That and the fact the chase is always more entertaining than the payoff. It's the chase people pay for.
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Guest_Prof_Plague_*
post May 11 2005, 01:13 PM
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All depends. Push then title, but there has been exceptions: JBL.

But then again, I was probably the only one who liked JBL a year ago or so. It took a while for some fans to accept him as champ. Now people want to see him as champ over Cena.
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DrVenkman PhD
post May 11 2005, 03:18 PM
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Back when I was a teenager, I was sold on the NAO when they won the tag titles for no reason. They were just two random guys who had a winning streak by cheating, then ended up wit hthe tag titles. Once that happened I figured they must be "legit" and the South Park shirts were the icing on the cake. The push that followed once they won the titles was secondary to me.

But that was years ago and those titles mean different things now. I think fans are more apt to rally behind someone being pushed higher up the card towards a title than a guy who wins on a fluke. Though he's not super over or anything, Paul London is a god example of someone they decided to push in 2005 by winning matches (albeit on Velocity) then gave him the title while he was on a winning streak.

It's also wise to time things right... Cena got a push in 2003 and probably could have been a huge deal as champ in the fall of 2003 or summer of 2004 but is just winning it now in 2005. He's still over but there are now a lot more people that have seen through him and don't care for him. Batista started catching fire in the fall and his push to the title win was well timed, I feel.
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CheesalaIsGood
post May 11 2005, 03:33 PM
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Hogan wasn't anything in the WWF before he was champion. They made a boatload of money too. Like it or hate it, success it was.
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Youth N Asia
post May 11 2005, 04:37 PM
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I hate seeing titles go on people in their first match or so. Early title runs didn't help the Bashams at all, they still aren't over at all. And while I like Carlito, it made no sense for him to get a belt in his first tv match, a match he got squashed for 90% of it.

Seemed like any time a new lightweight debuted they put the lw title on them...Christian, Essa, Gillberg, Lynn.
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Dobbs 3K
post May 11 2005, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE(CheesalaIsGood @ May 11 2005, 10:33 PM)
Hogan wasn't anything in the WWF before he was champion. They made a boatload of money too. Like it or hate it, success it was.

Hogan was already a known commodity in US pro-wrestling, and very over. People forget that he was already a big star in the AWA when he came to WWF. He also debuted in a big angle with Bob Backlund. His match against Iron Shiek wasn't just out of the blue, you know.
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DrVenkman PhD
post May 11 2005, 06:12 PM
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What would Randy Orton's world title run be classified under? While true that he was being pushed, being placed in SummerSlam's main event did seem rather random, and in the end his title win was only used to say "ok fans, Orton won a world title, please buy him as a WM main eventer next year".

I would have to classify that as "title, then push" myself and the result was poor.
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Just John
post May 11 2005, 06:35 PM
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Orton's run would be a case of the writers blowing their load too soon (or Vince not wanting Lesnar to be the youngest champ ever). Orton should've been in Batista's spot heading into Mania. Although, I thought the Batista turn and push was handled nicely. They didn't rush anything and let the fans warm up to him as a face, unlike Orton who won the belt as a full-fledged heel then turned out of nowhere.
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Guest_Crimson Idol_*
post May 11 2005, 07:26 PM
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Push then Title.

It's disrespectful to the other boys in the back who have been workin hard and getting nowhere to put the title on a rookie
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CanadianGuitaris...
post May 11 2005, 10:03 PM
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Push than title. See Benoit last April to illustrate that point.

JBL is the exception to this rule.
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Jericholic82
post May 12 2005, 12:58 AM
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jbl took two ppvs to get the belt, so he kinda got pushed first then won the title. True he didnt beat abunch of guys to earn it, but then again he hardly ever cleanly won a match during his entire reign.
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Jericho2000Mark
post May 12 2005, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE(Prof_Plague @ May 11 2005, 03:13 PM)
All depends. Push then title, but there has been exceptions: JBL.

But then again, I was probably the only one who liked JBL a year ago or so. It took a while for some fans to accept him as champ. Now people want to see him as champ over Cena.

JBL's push was by all accounts, a failure. How can people not see that?
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iggymcfly
post May 12 2005, 01:06 AM
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I think this should be a completely obvious question. Push then title is the only proper way to book a roster. Pushing an unover worker by giving him or her the title is just a lazy booking crutch that is completely ineffective in today's market.

It devalues the title, and actually makes the fans less interested in the worker in the long run, as what they're trying to "earn their way up to" is the same level they were at shortly after entering the company.
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Jericholic82
post May 12 2005, 01:09 AM
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QUOTE(Jericho2000Mark @ May 12 2005, 07:59 AM)
QUOTE(Prof_Plague @ May 11 2005, 03:13 PM)
All depends.  Push then title, but there has been exceptions:  JBL.

But then again, I was probably the only one who liked JBL a year ago or so.  It took a while for some fans to accept him as champ.  Now people want to see him as champ over Cena.

JBL's push was by all accounts, a failure. How can people not see that?

and this had nothing to do with sd just plain all out sucking last year after mania.
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Myxamatosis
post May 12 2005, 01:47 AM
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In terms of unpredictability, I like the title then push sequence.

It creates that feeling that, much like in pro football, basketball and baseball, any one team or individual is good enough to compete on the same level. And after a big win over a stronger opponent, these teams usually turn their seasons or fortunes around.

That's why I never liked enhancment talent. It makes the federation look weak by allowing some no-talent in on their shows. Better competition equals more interest.

This concept just gets a bad rap from all of Russo's quick title changes (IC title on Venis, European on Mark Henry, etc) that actually devalued the title rather than increase the illiusion of competition.
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Guest_Ransome_*
post May 12 2005, 01:55 AM
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QUOTE(Jericholic82 @ May 12 2005, 07:58 AM)
jbl took two ppvs to get the belt, so he kinda got pushed first then won the title. True he didnt beat abunch of guys to earn it, but then again he hardly ever cleanly won a match during his entire reign.

In March 2004, literally one week after Faarooq was fired, Bradshaw apparently gives up his alcoholism as he suddenly remembered the millions of dollars he's earned and the fancy limosuine he owns and renames himself JBL. Two weeks later, without winning a single match or drawing any heat, JBL is inserted into the main event of Judgment Day 2004 by an online poll (!) which listed John Cena as the winner. On what planet does this constitute a smartly-booked push? It's no wonder Judgment Day sold so poorly, because it's a stupid business move to stick an untested and unestablished character into a main event and expect people to pay money for it or take his title reign seriously.

JBL could have had six months, minimum, to mould his character before touching any titles.

Obviously, push before title, no exceptions.
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Carnival
post May 12 2005, 08:48 AM
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JBL may be over now. But him winning the title first did major damage to smackdown.

They are still recovering.
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Guest_JMA_*
post May 12 2005, 11:41 AM
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Wrestlers should, in most cases, get pushed before they win a promotion's top title. JBL isn't an exception, but Hogan is.
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Guest_JMA_*
post May 12 2005, 11:42 AM
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QUOTE(CarnivalizComing @ May 12 2005, 09:48 AM)
JBL may be over now. But him winning the title first did major damage to smackdown.

They are still recovering.

Agreed.
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Jericholic82
post May 12 2005, 11:54 AM
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I didnt say the push was good, just said they at least had him one ppv before the title win. This all wouldn't have been neccessary if Trips hadnt been a bitch and went to SD. Though that woudl probably mean that it would be he holding the title all year lol.
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