Salvation...

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

This might belong in the Current Events section, and if it does, I urge the mods to move it there.

 

As-is, I'm agnostic. I'm not saying there is a higher power, nor am I saying there isn't. Do I believe in God? No. Do I not believe in God? No. Give me proof, and I'll worship whatever the hell you want me to worship. But no way in hell am I changing my lifestyle to fit your beliefs.

 

As to the title of this thread, it pisses me off how Jehovah's Witnesses try to manipulate current events and the faults of other religions to only make you want to join their faith. I was just visited by a pair of JWs, and I must say, they had me convinced for a short period of time that JW is a good faith. Now, I'm not knocking anybody here that practices the Jehovah's Witness faith, but I will say this: they're great manipulators.

 

The man, in his 40's or 50's, dressed neatly and spoke to me as a peer. That right there makes me want to trust him and believe in him, as other practitioners of other faiths usually talk down to you. I told them flat-out I was agnostic, and I believe my mohawk and "Cowboys From Hell" Pantera t-shirt helped aid in the assumption that I wasn't religious at all. But this man did talk quite well.

 

He was nice to me. How many other people trying to sell their faith were nice to you? He told me that there isn't much to hope for in current society (which I actually agree with), and that everybody's interpretations of the word of God is going to be different due to human error. Right there, this turned into an intelligent conversation.

 

He quoted the Apostle Paul, when speaking of the Apostle Peter, and spoke something along the lines of "those are who are untaught...lead to their own destruction."

 

To make a long story short, he almost had me wanting to convert from my born-faith of Methodism (which, by the way, has the coolest religious symbol ever: a cross with a flame at the bottom) to the Jehovah's Witness practice. I don't practice any religion, and I'm all for people practicing whatever they choose, but this guy was being a manipulator. He tried to bring my hopes down, and then bring them back up through "faith." I need to take some lessons from him about public speaking, because he rarely moved his eyes from mine, memorized his entire speech, and didn't hesitate once. Hey, it's like Adolf...

[Guest Red Hot Thumbtack In The Eye]

I know what you mean. I get visited once a year by a couple JH, and it is nearly frightening how influencial they can be. when a guy comes to your door and you open it wearing a cradle of filth t shirt and blasting Suffocation of your stereo, and the guy doesnt even flinch...damn. Anyway these people are smart like a predator.

 

I don't understand how they don't just join amway and make millions. They are amazing salepeople. I wonder what kind of training they do?

 

I really like the comparison to Hitler, it's damn close to being the same thing.

[Guest DrTom]

really like the comparison to Hitler, it's damn close to being the same thing.

 

It's nothing like it at all. Hitler killed ten million people. When they guy knocking on your door asking you to join his religion has that kind of a death count on his shoulders, then you can make the comparison. I HATE it when people throw Hitler around like the name means nothing. Go to Israel and start comparing people to Hitler if you're so bloody enamored of it.

 

Anyway, their job is to try to make what they're selling sound appealing. Just ask them about Charles Taze Russell's many inaccurate end of the world predictions, and when the Apocalypse is scheduled for next. That's probably something of a sore spot with them.

 

(Moved to Current Events after this post)

[Guest Some Guy]

If you have no interest in the religion why even bother talking to them?

I don't, I just tell them I'm not interested and good luck next door (my neighbors are Jews on one side and Hindu on the other).

[Guest Sandman9000]

True story

 

A friend of mine was sitting in his garage, cleaning his rifle, when a group of JW were walking up his driveway. They got about halfway, before seeing the gun and stopping. One yelled out, "Would this be a good time?"

 

My friend stares at them, and merely says, "Nope."

 

The two JW turn a 180 and racewalk down that driveway.

 

I just thought it was hilarious, but I may be wrong.

[Guest Ram]

Jehova's Witness = The Watchtower Cult

 

They're crazy, really.

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

DrTom, the comparison to Hitler was about how Hitler could take minor truths and lies, most of which the mass public thought anyway, and twisted them to fit his mission better than any other politician to date.

 

Dammit, Hitler is my favorite political leader ever*.

 

 

* = This is NOT because of the Holocaust or Anti-Semitism. It is because his ideas were so fucked up and beyond rational, yet he somehow was able to convince over a million people to agree with him.

[Guest NoCalMike]

I remember when I was too young to understand "alterior motives" and some Jehova witnesses knocked on the door and I answered it, and they started asking me about technology and if I thought it was a good or bad thing that we can explore space....I was puzzled and confused at what the hell their purpose was, so My dad sees this and quickly rescues me from their grasp and right before I get in the door, they slip me one of their literatures.....I looked at and had a good laugh.

[Guest evenflowDDT]

really like the comparison to Hitler, it's damn close to being the same thing.

 

It's nothing like it at all. Hitler killed ten million people. When they guy knocking on your door asking you to join his religion has that kind of a death count on his shoulders, then you can make the comparison. I HATE it when people throw Hitler around like the name means nothing. Go to Israel and start comparing people to Hitler if you're so bloody enamored of it.

Yea, really. I kind of understand what you're saying Corey, but I have to agree with DrTom here. It wasn't even Hitler that did all the propaganda, it was his fellow high-ranking guys, I've got a really bad headache so my memory's shot, but I want to say Himmler, I can't remember right now if that was any of them or not, so my apologies if it isn't, I'm usually not that dumb. Honest.

[Guest DrTom]

Actually, I think Goebbels was the master of propaganda, but it's late and it's been some time since I studied history. The important thing is, comparing anyone to Hitler for any reason is dangerously irresponsible. Sure, the guy had a lot of fucked-up ideas, but managed to get a lot of people behind him (he was a strong nationalist when Germany was bent about the Treat of Versailles, go figure...) despite that. He also killed ten million people, which rather trumps anything else he might be known for.

[Guest godthedog]

yup, goebbels was the prop. man. himmler was in charge of the death camps.

[Guest gthureson]

* = This is NOT because of the Holocaust or Anti-Semitism. It is because his ideas were so fucked up and beyond rational, yet he somehow was able to convince over a million people to agree with him.

The basis of his arguments wasn't beyond rational though. Leaders and their political successes must be viewed in the context of their times. Hitler was elected Chancellor in 1933. The important details of this time are:

 

1) Germany was screwed at the Treaty of Versailles because there was nobody else to screw. The Russians were in the midst of a civil war in 1918, so there was no point laying war guilt on them. The Americans had just entered the war fresh in 1917, and the Germans really had little choice but to accept an armistice because they had been fighting a draining static war for 4 years, and even though they had been close to breaking the deadlock before the Americans entered, they knew they couldn't continue it with a fresh enemy army involved. So...even though the majority of the war was fought in France, and the Germans didn't *really* lose, they got bent over and raped in epic porportions at Versaille. It's a laundry list treaty terms that cripple them for fifteen years until they started ignoring them. Briefly:

a) Return of Alsace-Lorraine to France

B) A large chunk taken off eastern Germany and given to Poland.

c) The disolution of the monarchy and the instituion of the Weimar Republic, which *everybody* hated.

d) The demilitarization of the Rhineland, a cap of 100 000 men in the army, no tanks, no air force, and essentially no navy.

e) ALL reparations would be paid by Germany. They would have to accept all fault for the war.

 

2) Communism was a far bigger deal before the war than after it, because it was an actual threat to governments in Europe. It was a scare tactic after the war, because, believe it or not, the Soviets didn't want to fight another war. They had just gotten a whole generation killed fighting the Germans. Before the war, however, Communism was a rising force, and in contintental Europe, most countries had a Communist party that was crusing around 25-30 per cent of the popular vote. What, thats not much? Not in a two-party state, no. European democracies have always had a boatload of parties, and 30% of the vote makes you a major player when no one is getting 50%. Unstable coalition governments had to be formed with the express purposes of keeping the communists out. Fascists garnered alot of support in countries because they were vehemently anti-Communist.

 

3) Depression: The war reparations crippled the German economy. And this blame was laid on the Weimar Republic. Since unification in 1873, the German economy had been a juggernaut, growing by leaps and bounds every year. Then Versaille and the Weimar Republic happened, and the currency was useless and the country a mess. A country that had been built on pride in the monarcy, the army and their economic might had been reduced to weak, pitiful thing. This stung at most of the population.

 

So who do you throw in to this mix?

 

Someone who shows up saying all the right things. Someone who is saying that Germany should be a strong nation again, that the Weimar Republic is the worst thing that has happened to the country, that he can stop the violence in the streets and turn the country around.

 

Yes, the anti-semitism was there. Europe has always been Anti-Semite though. They still are. Yes, Hitler's Brownshirts were the cause of most of the street violence, but they were beating the crap out of the Communists, so they were alright. So the National Socialists were a solid anti-Communist, strong-Germany vote in the elections, and Hitler was the obvious choice to be Chancellor, the thinking being he would be held in check by von Hindenburg. They were wrong, as the National Socialists were beyond ruthless, and engineered a revolution once they were in power that left the Republic dead and Hitler as the Fuhrer.

 

Even that, however, was not seen as a bad thing. Because things did turn around. The army grew, the economy got better. Germany was becoming strong again. Yes, Jews and deviants got sent to labour camps. But consider what the right wing suggests these days about having tough anti-crime, three strikes and you are out, stop coddling criminals attitude. Well, you can see where you get support for the camps.

 

The 'fucked up and beyond rational' ideas were not up for public consumption until after the war.

 

Remember, most of Europe and the States supported Hitler to a certain degree throughout the 30s because he was an anti-Communist. The last thing anybody wanted was a Communist Germany with a Soviet/German power bloc in the East.

 

Hitler rising to power was much like any other politician. He told the people want they want to hear, and they responded. He was different in that he actually followed through on it, and then some. He didn't have to convince anybody that they wanted a strong Germany. They already believed it. He was just the only one saying he would wipe his ass with Versaille to achieve it.

 

If you want a better political leader, take FDR. While he was not an excellent diplomat, he had an excellent grasp on what he needed to do to make it through the times he was living in. He took a horrible situation (The Depression), and used it to modernize much of rural America. All those Alphabet organizations did much to bring power and communications to areas that were backwoods before hand. He kept America out of the war when they were not ready to be in it, while supporting Britain and keeping them in. When finally entering the Second World War, he left the actual fighting to his Generals (which Hitler would not do, hence the disaster in the Soviet Union) but got them through to the end of it with low casualties in comparision to everybody else, and in the strongest position of anybody. (Yes, I know Truman was President at the time of the peace, but Roosevelt's hand was still very much evident.)

 

The US was a military and economic juggernaut at the end of the Second World War, which is quite impressive considering the state of both at the beginning.

[Guest big Dante Cruz]

Thureson beat me to the whole Hitler thing. Props to ya, man.

 

I'm a member of a campus ministry at my university, and for the most part, we get along perfectly fine with everyone else. We don't impress on anybody because there's no way people listen if you yell at them, tell them they're going to Hell or condemn them. We don't go door to door trying to convert people, either, because that's pretty much solicitation.

 

What the JWs are doing basically boils down to the idea of getting you comfortable before hitting the sales pitch. Treat someone as an equal. Ask their opinion. Find out what they like you can identify with, talk on that and then you go with what you're selling and try to pass it off as one friend recommending it to another. Not quite psychological warfare, but you hit it on the head, manipulation.

 

The only problem with that is once someone figures out what you're doing, they get somewhat pissed off and don't want a thing to do with you anymore, so it's not the best method of conversion.

[Guest DrTom]

And what does Hitler's laundry list of achievements do to lessen the fact that he murdered ten million people? He improved the economy and built roads. Big fucking deal. He sent millions of people to gas chambers, too. That overrides any positive things he may have done before the fact that he was a mass-murdering fuckhead became apparent to the world. The bottom line is that Hitler wantonly killed a lot of people, and that is what makes any comparison to him stupid, contemptible, and irresponsible. The same could be said for attempts to defend him.

[Guest gthureson]

Not saying they do anything to lessen the fact that he murdered ten million people.

 

Just saying you cannot remove the man from the context for understanding how he got the German people behind him. The gas chambers, and much of the sheer lunacy of the man only came out at Nuremburg and through the diaries of the inner echelon.

 

Yet most people try and paint it as a Sven Gali like politician who hoodwinked an entire nation with all of this on the plate right from the start.

 

No, there is no defence for National Socialism. The anti-Semitism/Aryan superiority was right there for everybody to see.

 

If anybody had taken the time to read the damn book he wrote, the plan was more or less spelled out.

 

But the key to avoid repeating of situations is to understand why they occured in the first place.

 

And just saying Hitler = Evil, while garnering lots of support, does nothing to do that.

 

Hell, I agree with you. The terms 'Nazi' and 'Hitler' are bandied around so much by the right and the left that have lost all meaning. Skateboarders call their local government Nazis for not letting them skate in front of city hall. The right bandies about Nazi's and Hitler as a holy shield against gun control.

 

Why?

 

Because the events in question are getting into the distant past. The end of the second world war is approaching sixty years ago. The numbers of people who are old enough to actually remember it (not just born during it and hearing stories from their parents) is dwindling. The numbers of veterans of either side is getting pretty scarce, and the ones that are left are generally in failing health. The power of words diminishes as people who *understand* what they mean diminishes.

 

My point was not to set out a laundry list of achievements. Its to put Hitler's early reign into proper context, and punch a hole in this theory that he was some kind of guru. No, he was a political opportunist, pure and simple. An engaging public speaker, but still an opportunist, and by 1942, definately insane.

 

The fact of the matter is that if there had been a ruthless enough leader of the German Communist party, they could have pulled the same coup, as they had the same amount of support as the National Socialists. Hitler didn't accomplish something nobody else could have done.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

<<<And just saying Hitler = Evil, while garnering lots of support, does nothing to do that.>>>

 

Agreed. I've always disliked the notion that because Hitler was so evil, there's something wrong with discussing him. The best way to handle the Holocaust is to actually study it, which includes studying the man behind it. However, it always seems like attempts to study or discuss Hitler always result in people accusing you of defending him or being anti-semetic or whatever. I find Hitler fascinating, and I see nothing morbid or wrong with that. I certainly don't support his slaughter of millions of innocents, but like you said, the best way to make sure nothing like that happens again is to understand why it happened the first time, not just to declare Hitler evil and then make it taboo to mention him.