Scientists: Same sex couples found in nature.

[Jorge Gorgeous 0]

I've been going to gay weddings for years! I went and saw a couple of lesbians get married when I was eight or nine, long before they had legalized gay marriage (essentially) in Oregon. So... gay marriage has been happening for at least 15 years. Is Christianity okay? Yes it is. It's doing just fine. Homosexuality poses no threat to Christianity (or any other religion.) Since when does a major religion need the United States government to justify it?

 

Christianity's assault on homosexuals is ridiculous. I honestly believe gay marriage has about as much to do with religion as the very soil of Gettysburg had to do with the ideological struggles of the Civil War. Gay marriage isn't "Why" the battle, gay marriage is "Where" the battle, if that makes sense. Honestly, why would someone care about this small section of levitical law?

 

That said, there are issues here (duh.) Gay people aren't really being discriminated againt. They're free to marry, just like straight people are. They just can't marry each other. Elton John could marry Melissa Ethridge, for example. So... gay marriage isn't legal, it isn't illegal, it just sort of "isn't."

 

What needs to happen, in my opinion, is the abolishment of marriage from government. Let marriage continue to be something that people do in churches, or backyards, or Niagara Falls (slowly I turned) and then have the people go to the government for a civil union. Have the civil union carry all the legal weight that marriages carry now, but let certain Christians continue to pretend that they invented marriage and own the idea.

[At Home 0]

Homosexuality poses no threat to Christianity

I don't know about that.

 

 

And marriage has practical applications in the government sphere, especially for tax purposes. It's not gonna go away, despite how hard Joni Mitchell fights it.

[Jorge Gorgeous 0]

Homosexuality poses no threat to Christianity

I don't know about that.

 

 

And marriage has practical applications in the government sphere, especially for tax purposes. It's not gonna go away, despite how hard Joni Mitchell fights it.

 

Oh yeah? How does homosexuality threaten Christianity? Try and avoid the hyperbolic "Well if everyone was gay, then there wouldn't be any more people, and then there wouldn't be any more Christians" argument, not that I'm saying you were thinking about it... just in case.

 

And I agree, marriage has practical applications, did you read my original post? That's why we keep those practical applications and give it a new name. I know it's just semantics, but semantics is actually a big part of the problem in this case.

[At Home 0]

I was kidding.

[SuperJerk 0]

I paused a Miles Davis album to click on Y2Jerk's video. Good choice by both of us. That said, I don't care for "well, animals do it" as a reason why it should be tolerated, because animals do lots of things that wouldn't constitute acceptable human behavior. I don't know. There should be better ways to say "stop hating gay people."

The "well, animals do it" response is useful as a counterargument to the "homosexuality is a choice and contrary to nature" argument that's been used for as long as homosexuality has been debated.

[SuperJerk 0]

I am opposed to gay marriage on the grounds that, like it or not, this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, and gay marriage is not a part of that tradition.

 

Some of the English colonies that would later become the original 13 states were founded on Judeo-Christian principles. The United States, the official internationally recognized soveriegn nation that has existed since 1776 and whose government and laws we now follow, was not.

 

There is nothing in the Bible that remotely resembles anything in either the Constitution (including the 27 Amendments passed since 1789) or Declaration of Independence. There's no mention in the Bible of freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, no taxation without representation, habaes corpus, representative democracy, separation of powers, equality under the law, inalienable rights, states rights, election of representatives or chief executives, term limits, women's suffrage, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, or other procedures and principles embedded in our founding documents. The only governments mentioned in the Bible are kingdoms and monarchies. Contrary to popular belief, God is not mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, but "our creator" which some people believe to be God.

 

Perhaps the only thing the Bible mentions that the Constitution reinforces is owning slaves, but even that was counteracted by the 13th Amendment.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

I've never really understood why animals doing something means it's okay for people to do it too. If someone person was discovered to be a cannibal who ate their kids, do you really think anyone is gonna argue "No, it's okay, some animals do that!"

 

Who has said this?

 

Nobody; the point I was trying to make was simply that I don't think that animals doing something instantly means it's 100% okay for humans to do, is all.

 

And futhermore,

Niagara Falls (slowly I turned)

 

You are my hero.

 

[Gary Floyd 0]

This thread makes me wonder where Marney went.

[the max 0]

I just don't see how this affects people so deeply. If you're not gay, and aren't planning on being gay, how does it concern you?

 

The religious objection to this is always laughable.

 

 

[Jingus 0]

Do you really know people who throw a fit like the one you just described? It reeks of something that you made up.

Never spent much time around hardcore activist college students? Oh yeah there are people like that. Not legions of them, but they exist. Some people are just so angry about their chosen cause that they go around looking for fights with anyone who disagrees.

 

I've been going to gay weddings for years! I went and saw a couple of lesbians get married when I was eight or nine, long before they had legalized gay marriage (essentially) in Oregon. So... gay marriage has been happening for at least 15 years.

Even longer than that. There were already gay marriage ceremonies at least as far back as the late 60s. The first openly public one was in 1969. And there's plenty of ancient historical examples, in the Roman empire and such.

 

This thread makes me wonder where Marney went.

She's having trouble with her cancer and the treatment, so she's not around much. But actually she argues against gay marriage. Not against the gay part, but the marriage. She has some odd ideas about how nobody ought to ever get married.

 

 

Checking wikipedia, it turns out that America is literally the only English-speaking westernized country left which doesn't at least recognize civil unions.

[Gary Floyd 0]

This thread makes me wonder where Marney went.

She's having trouble with her cancer and the treatment, so she's not around much. But actually she argues against gay marriage. Not against the gay part, but the marriage. She has some odd ideas about how nobody ought to ever get married.

Damn, poor girl.

 

I never really had a problem with gay marriage. So far, I have yet to hear a good argument against it.

[Guest]

Marney had a job down in Florida. She left for a week.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I (and millions of others) have a right to say "That goes against my religious views."

Sure, you have the right to say it. You don't have the legal right to do jack shit about it. It's against your religion? Tough titty. Separation of church and state. And marriage laws belong to the state, not the church.

 

Yeah, except it's not legal in most states, and when put up to public referendum, the voters in the US have almost universally voted against it. But, yeah, I'm sure the will of the "enlightened" minority is supposed to trump the will of the many, right?

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I (and millions of others) have a right to say "That goes against my religious views."

Sure, you have the right to say it. You don't have the legal right to do jack shit about it. It's against your religion? Tough titty. Separation of church and state. And marriage laws belong to the state, not the church.

 

Yeah, except it's not legal in most states, and when put up to public referendum, the voters in the US have almost universally voted against it. But, yeah, I'm sure the will of the "enlightened" minority is supposed to trump the will of the many, right?

 

The majority also supported the war in Iraq at one point.

 

And opposed interracial marriage.

 

And believed in a geocentric universe.

 

And lots of other stupid shit. Saying that a majority if for/against something is not a strong argument either way.

[Jingus 0]

Yeah, except it's not legal in most states, and when put up to public referendum, the voters in the US have almost universally voted against it.

And why did this majority (same one that voted for Bush 1.5 times) feel that way? Because of religion. Religious teachings should never, ever dictate civil law. I'm still waiting for an argument against gay marriage which doesn't boil down to "because the Bible said so".

 

But, yeah, I'm sure the will of the "enlightened" minority is supposed to trump the will of the many, right?

Pretty much exactly what happened when Lincoln (hey look, another non-Christian deist!) freed the slaves. Most people back then either wanted slavery or didn't give a shit about it.

 

But that's the facetious answer. The real one is that this moral majority has never reasonably explained how it hurts anyone or anything to allow this minority of consenting adults to marry whoever they want.

[Twisted Intestine 0]

They've explained it countless times. If gay people get married, God gets angry, and things like 9/11 happen.

 

I'm not saying that's true, but for people who really believe it, that's the only reason they need to be against gays.

[Jingus 0]

So why doesn't God just kill the gays, why does he kill these other random people, I DEMAND EXPLANATIONS

[SamoaRowe 0]

I just don't see how this affects people so deeply. If you're not gay, and aren't planning on being gay, how does it concern you?

 

The religious objection to this is always laughable.

 

Well, when you have gay friends and family, who you know to be wonderful, perfectly well adjusted people, who have never done anything to hurt anyone in their entire lives, and then you see screaming idiots on television saying things like "gays shouldn't get married because it JUST ISN'T RIGHT" you start to get pissed off very quickly. I know gay couples who have great relationships, and they put some of the heterosexual couples I know to shame when it comes to simple things like, you know, respecting one another.

 

 

 

Oh, and if homosexuality poses any risk to Christianity, it's because a lot of people look like huge assholes when they say things like "God hates gays." That is a huge turn-off to most rational people.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Oh, for the record, I've known and even lived next to plenty of gay people in college. Most were perfectly nice people. So don't try to think that I don't know any, or haven't been exposed to them.

[Twisted Intestine 0]

A gay guy touched me once. I went to emergency to get a blood test... You can never be too careful.

[Cowboy Battlenuts 0]

I think it's just a matter of people not knowing how to explain it to there kids.

 

I never understood the concern, it's sometimes like people are afraid once gay marriage is legalized San Francisco is just gonna explode on the country like a disease. Why concern yourself with how a person lives there life when it has absolutely no affect on your own life? Seems beyond pointless.

[Ripper 0]

I just don't see how this affects people so deeply. If you're not gay, and aren't planning on being gay, how does it concern you?

 

The religious objection to this is always laughable.

 

 

because of the dumb prescident it starts. Who is to say we can't have a law against women wearing pants? Or cutting their hair? Or working for that matter.

 

You can't let the beliefs of one people dictate completely dumb laws.

[SamoaRowe 0]

Oh, for the record, I've known and even lived next to plenty of gay people in college. Most were perfectly nice people. So don't try to think that I don't know any, or haven't been exposed to them.

 

Well, then you're taking a big old shit on all of them with your attitude on this subject. I bet you wouldn't say any of this to their faces either.

[SamoaRowe 0]

A. I see nothing in this about people being born gay, all you say is "defend yourself if you oppose gay marraige."

B. You tell anti-gay marriage folk not to sound like a jackass, but you didn't seem to apply that rule to yourself.

C. End it now? Because some animals are gay we can end the whole debate? Like this is some ultimate evidence? Give me a break. It's one point for one arguement, it's not some definitive thing.

 

A. Yeah, people do need to defend themselves if they oppose gay marraige. They should back up when they claim that someone else shouldn't have the same rights they enjoy.

B. Hey, if I come across like a jackass it's only because I'm frustrated with people who hate gays and follow the same lies and talking points when they try to back up why they should be deprived of equal rights.

C. No, you've missed the point (like many have). The whole animals thing is evidence that being gay isn't a choice, but just how some people are. That destroys any notion that people choose to be gay as if they could turn it on or off and they choose to be that way just to piss off religious and conservative people.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Well, then you're taking a big old shit on all of them with your attitude on this subject. I bet you wouldn't say any of this to their faces either.

 

Yes, yes I would. I would say "I have nothing against you as a person, but I think marriage is traditionally defined as between a man and woman should stay that way."

[SamoaRowe 0]

Well, then you're taking a big old shit on all of them with your attitude on this subject. I bet you wouldn't say any of this to their faces either.

 

Yes, yes I would. I would say "I have nothing against you as a person, but I think marriage is traditionally defined as between a man and woman should stay that way."

 

So you would deny them the same rights as you just because of you're traditions? How would them getting married upset the traditions of marraige when it comes to your own life? Are you going to be laying awake at night going "Dammit, they're married, that's not the tradition!!!!"

 

And if they got upset at you for saying something like that, they would be completely in the right.

[Jorge Gorgeous 0]

Who, day and night, must scramble for a living,

Feed a wife and children, say his daily prayers?

And who has the right, as master of the house,

To have the final word at home?

 

The Papa, the Papa! Tradition.

The Papa, the Papa! Tradition.

 

Who must know the way to make a proper home,

A quiet home, a kosher home?

Who must raise the family and run the home,

So Papa's free to read the holy books?

 

The Mama, the Mama! Tradition!

The Mama, the Mama! Tradition!

 

At three, I started Hebrew school. At ten, I learned a trade.

I hear they've picked a bride for me. I hope she's pretty.

 

The son, the son! Tradition!

The son, the son! Tradition!

 

And who does Mama teach to mend and tend and fix,

Preparing me to marry whoever Papa picks?

 

The daughter, the daughter! Tradition!

The daughter, the daughter! Tradition!

 

 

 

 

...Sounds crazy, no?

[Markme123 0]

Why shouldn't gay people be miserable like the rest of us?

I long for the day when this tired, Jay Leno monologue-filler "joke" gets retired. I really do.

 

We are not equivalent to animals, anyway.

I don't view the fact that some animals in the same phylum have sexual relations with the same gender as an equivilation of the species, but as proof that same-gender sex may, in fact, be natural in some animals. We being animals, and this being fact, could lead to the conclusion that homosexuality is not always (though sometimes) a choice. And if it isn't, I wouldn't feel right denying gay couples government-issued marriage licenses.

 

If marriage was still strictly instituted through "the" church, I would back the religious yahoos 100%. But because in today's world you don't even need a church to get married through, I believe allowing gay marriage is the right thing to do. I take comfort in the fact that, 20 years from now, we will look back at this decision as the start of the widespread legalization of gay marriage.

[NoCalMike 0]

I never understood the ".....founded on Christian Values...." argument, because that would imply that the "values" from that time period, which include a lot of ugly things used in the name of "Christianity", should still be in place.

 

I always viewed our society as an ever evolving culture, that strives to keep the good things going and over time discover what should be changed, and well, change it.

 

 

[SamoaRowe 0]

Who, day and night, must scramble for a living,

Feed a wife and children, say his daily prayers?

And who has the right, as master of the house,

To have the final word at home?

 

The Papa, the Papa! Tradition.

The Papa, the Papa! Tradition.

 

Who must know the way to make a proper home,

A quiet home, a kosher home?

Who must raise the family and run the home,

So Papa's free to read the holy books?

 

The Mama, the Mama! Tradition!

The Mama, the Mama! Tradition!

 

At three, I started Hebrew school. At ten, I learned a trade.

I hear they've picked a bride for me. I hope she's pretty.

 

The son, the son! Tradition!

The son, the son! Tradition!

 

And who does Mama teach to mend and tend and fix,

Preparing me to marry whoever Papa picks?

 

The daughter, the daughter! Tradition!

The daughter, the daughter! Tradition!

 

 

 

 

...Sounds crazy, no?

 

::Marks out for the Fiddler on the Roof reference::

 

And NoCalMike hit the nail on the head.