Perfection

actually he didn't get 3 words in before orielly went nuts on him and started shouting over him. In the opening promo he said "is the benoit murder case going to finally be the thing that brings down professional wrestling". Of course, Orielly came across as acting like every wrestler is a doped up, high on crack, wife abuser and steriods nutcase. annoying watching someone who really knows nothing about the business act like he knows everything about it.

I have no idea if its true or not but he knows a few people on the inside of the business so I feel like it was noteworthy to post what he says.

We don't know where the bruises were placed on the kid. All we have is the CMI report, which may or may not be true. He even says that the arm wasn't mentioned, but he says that there was the implication. And nothing like that has been mentioned by the police yet. And you can say "You're getting into semantics", but looking into where his body is placed, its an absurd position to try and choke someone out from. It only makes it harder if you are doing what you said (Sliding your forearm across) because you are not really using your other arm anymore. Not only that, but it'd require him to flip his son over and likely shift his entire body around. Again, I call bullshit. It doesn't make sense, even for someone who isn't making sense in the first place, and to me it sounds like someone is trying to make a story. Not to say that CMI is trying to, but perhaps his sources are. This was posted by the administrator of the wrestling classics board. "My information is that the bruising matched what the cops and the DA saw when they watched Benoit wrestle on tape after the autopsy and that the identification was made by them and communicated to the media. Not made BY the media. The way it was said to me was unequivocal that it was the CCF. It wasn't mentioned specifically about the arm, but the clear implication is that yes it was on the arm as well. If I can get clarification I will."

Up until recently of course, I considered that possibly the greatest moment in wrestling history for me personally. I remember having tears in my eyes after him winning it. Moments like that are really rare in wrestling and its been completely ruined. Now....it will do nothing but remind anyone who watches it what an evil and twisted bastard Benoit was.

It's no more far fetched at this point than, you know, that Benoit killed his wife and child. After I head that he actually tied Nancy up and brutally killed her instead of just in a simple split second moment of passion, there's very few details that I wouldn't find believable. I agree. The more we learn about Benoit, the more it seems he really was twisted and for quite some time and him using the crossface or some variation of it would not surprise me at this point. Sometime within the last few years Benoit lost his mind (or maybe he was never all there to begin with). I posted this a few pages back but here is what Bob Ryder says "This wasn't roid rage, this was insanity. Roid rage doesn't last for 48 hours. There were signs that something was wrong. Stories have emerged that a year ago he became paranoid and believed he was being followed. He wouldn't let Nancy leave the house because he believed someone was out to get them." We already know you have to be a sick fuck to kill your wife and kid but really it does look like Benoit may have been a real fruitcake. I just rewatched the moment where he won the world title and it just blows my mind he was capable of doing this but it goes to show, you should never draw any firm conclusions about what you might think you know about someone.

41 pages, 800 or so replies and over 100,000 views. they did away with the non stick forum for some dumb reason. i think though they deleted the original thread for it too.

I didn't get to see Abrams on msnbc that folks were talking about earlier but it sure looks like they sliced and diced wrestling and the wwe via kellers transcript For anyone who missed it. WWE News: MNBC dedicates extensive time to discussing Benoit with doctor, author, reporter By Wade Keller, Torch editor Jun 26, 2007, 23:17 Email This Article - Printer Friendly Page - Back to Main Listing On MSNBC, after the Bret Hart interview, Dan Abrams interviewed a reporter with the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, author of Wrestling Babylon Irvin Muchnick, and Dr. Drew Pinsky. Irv said he documented 87 wrestlers who have died over the last generation of drugs. "Wrestling fans are used to wrestlers dying; they're not used to the sensational details of this particular case," he said. "It's a sad commentary on the wrestling industry these days." Abrams asked if drugs could explain why someone so many say is a nice guy did this. Pinsky said toxicology reports may not exonerate drugs as the issue because the withdrawal from getting off of drugs can lead to desperate acts. Abrams read the WWE statement that Benoit tested negative on Apr. 10, 2007. Pinsky said, "That doesn't tell me anything. People cycle steroids, they don't use them every day. They use them in cycles for brief periods of time." He reiterated that it's when wrestlers get off of drugs that can lead to "depressions, irritability, abnormal thinking." He said he has seen gruesome suicides and intense suicides on the drugs and off. Abrams asked if it's a case of simply an angry husband. He read details of his martial problems. Muchnick said, "We can look at the pattern of the pandemic of deaths in wrestling in recent years and it's reasonable to speculate there was something more going on here than a simple marital dispute." Abrams asked again about the way they met, and how it is "part of a wrestling stunt." Muchnick explained in detail the Kevin Sullivan-Woman-Benoit storyline in WCW. "Art imitated life and they ran off together," he said. He said Sullivan is known as the wrestler who booked his own divorce. Abrams then went after WWE for blaming the media for speculating about steroids being involved in the subject. He then ripped them for honoring Benoit last night and said they have answers to give. After the break, they aired a clip of Vince McMahon's announcement at the start of Raw last night. Abrams said WWE attacked the media for associating it with roid rage. He then editorialized: "My Take: The night they were all found dead, the WWE celebrates Benoit's life for three hours on TV. The first thing we talked about in the news room last night based on the facts we knew then was that it was a murder-suicide. I hope Vince McMahon apologizes, but even if he dies, he really insulted the victims hour after hour last night. It was a celebration of his celebrity rather than a cold, hard look at the facts of the case first." They went back to Muchnick, plus MSNBC resident commentator Steve Adubato. Adubato said the problem he has with McMahon is, "They should have waited. It was the only responsible thing to do. They're so pressed in these events to put on a show on, they didn't even wait to figure it out. They were afraid if they waited, they might have missed an opportunity for a storyline that they weren't responsible. An apology is too late; they should have known." Abrams asked Muchnick about WWE's celebrating a murderer. Muchnick said there is a little bit of piling on against WWE, "not that Vince McMahon doesn't deserve it." He said that they aired repeats after they knew more. He said it doesn't matter whether it was classic roid rage or another concoction of chemicals that caused him to act that way, he and his wife and son are dead. He said we should care because it could be repeated in the future. Abrams said it didn't set right with him that excuses seemed to be being given for Benoit's actions rather than blaming the individual for his actions. Adubato said: "Dan, there's a history, there's a pattern, there's a culture. It's not just the death - a ridiculous number of deaths. An absurd, unreal, statistically unreal number of deaths. The fact that when Eddie Guerrero, when he was the WWE Champion and he dies the way he dies, then Vince says, 'Now we're going to crack down on steroids.' Ten years ago there was a case that involved McMahon and Hulk Hogan and steroids. And Vince got off there. Instead of saying ten years ago we're going to crack down, they waited another eight years for Eddie Guerrero to die. It's absurd."

I haven't read anything from ryder in years so I dont know where his credibility stands right now but FWIW WARNING SIGNS THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG WITH CHRIS BENOIT By: Bob Ryder 6/26/2007 5:08:55 PM In speaking with close friends and confidants of Chris Benoit contacted this afternoon, apparently there were some warning signs that something was wrong with Benoit. Some of the information learned by 1Wrestling.com by colleagues and friends that did not want to be quoted: "This wasn't roid rage, this was insanity. Roid rage doesn't last for 48 hours. There were signs that something was wrong. Stories have emerged that a year ago he became paranoid and believed he was being followed. He wouldn't let Nancy leave the house because he believed someone was out to get them." “Chris hated religion. He didn't believe in it. I cannot comprehend him putting bibles by the bodies. I am shocked.” (Note: We have been contacted by other friends of Benoit who say he had recently become a religious person) In addition, 1Wrestling has learned that sources close to Nancy are reporting that she had a safety deposit box with evidence of past rages and that authorities should check the box if anything ever happened to her.

This was a great ECW show tonight. Although, oddly, I felt myself pulling for Burke even though I'm a CM Punk mark. I hope Punk doesn't win the belt right away; I think Nitro can shine as a heel/tweener champ on the "C" level show even with his mic skills. I just hope Punk and Burke have some bigger program together down the road, as they really f'd up Burke's character just when he was relatively hot with the whole CM Punk/New breed angle being so rushed. I really like Burke and tonight was another good match with him. He does a lot of extra little things that make his matches more enjoyable. I hope the wwe doesnt fuck up with him because I think he's got great potential to be a star. I can honestly say I like him more than punk because punk just seems too goody two shoes or something. If he was a heel I'm sure I'd like him much more but at this point, I give Burke the nod.

Wrong. There is a reason why premeditated murder is usually considered a more serious crime and given harsher sentences than a heat of a moment outburst. What he did in terms of its calculation and premeditation shows he was in control of what he was doing, which makes it even worse. When I say "more understandable" is the fact that a lot of people can lose it in a moment of extreme anger but its a differant ballgame when someone plans out and executes two murders over the span of 24 hours like he did, than a several minute deranged outburst. Most people realize there is a difference in the degree of evilness between the two....except your brilliant self of course.

Given what he did, it's best not to say anything. I don't fault WWE for the tribute show, unless they absolutely knew that Chris probably did it. I don't think they would go out of their way to pay tribute to a murderer I don't necessarily fault them for the show but according to keller the moment everyone found out, everyone had a suspicion it was the act of Benoit. I think a case can be made either way for if they should have done it or not. UPDATED: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 11:11 a.m. Here are some random thoughts that reflect what I've been thinking and talking about the past 20 hours... -Raw last night was a mistake. WWE personnel had reason to believe (because I did at that point from people I was talking to) that it was a murder-murder-suicide and that Chris Benoit was likely the perpetrator (based on what I was told about the text message contents they received the day before). Doing a tribute show to someone who very possibly had just killed his wife and son was a bad call. Now, that said, I soften my criticism in this respect: As after the Owen Hart death, people were under duress and not thinking clearly and had a three-hour show to create quickly. Not acknowledging Benoit would seem crass, if not presumptuous of his guilt. The tribute to him as a great family man may have been a true reflection of the person they knew, but it does in retrospect seem akin to a Hollywood or sports world tribute to O.J. Simpson's contributions as the details were sketchy regarding what happened with his wife. -What was the other option? Cancel the show entirely and air reruns of a USA Network movie or syndicated series in its place with a crawler at the top of each hour explaining the cancellation. Or have Vince introduce the show as he did in mid-ring, then broadcast a PPV or a previous edition of Raw or even a DVD documentary on tag teams or another innocuous subject. That'd be my call, and it's not a case of 20/20 hindsight because everyone in WWE suspected what's come out today, with less precise detail of course, at the time that show was put together. Wrestlers can mourn without cameras filming them.

Interesting Bret is defending the wwe here also...I realize bret was close to him but to call him a great man after what he did? ugh.. WWE News: Bret Hart speaks on MSNBC about death of Chris Benoit By Wade Keller, Torch editor Jun 26, 2007, 20:08 Email This Article - Printer Friendly Page - Back to Main Listing Bret Hart was a guest of Ross Abrams on Scorborough Country on MSNBC. He said he never saw Chris Benoit lose his temper or composure. He said when he first heard early reports, he hoped there was "a better explanation than this." He added: "I think it's going to be a long time before anyone gets over this in the wrestling business." Abrams asked about Benoit dating Nancy while she was still married to another wrestler. Bret said he didn't know such details. He said Chris never confided marital problems to him. "I always thought he was a good family man and a good husband," he said. Bret said most of his experiences with Nancy came at funerals. Abrams seized that and asked about the deaths of wrestlers of the years. An on-screen graphic said that since 1997, there have been 1,000 pro wrestlers 45 and younger and 65 of them have died - 25 by heart attacks, five of 25 from steroid use, 12 deaths from use of other drugs. The death rate are seven times higher than the general population. There is 12 times the chance of a wrestler dying from heart disease. Bret talked about steroids and pain kills. He said he understands a lot of that was remedied in recent years. "I don't want to see this pinned on steroids," he said. "I think that there is a deeper - it goes beyond that at this point." Abrams asked: "Is this going to bring wrestling down? Is this going to be a pock that wrestling won't be able to overcome." Bret said, "No, wrestling will always keep going." He said there's no reason for this to ruin that for everybody. He said everybody loved and respected Benoit, noting, "That's why this is so hard to accept. We all loved him. This is a great man; I can't think of any wrestlers who wouldn't have come to the aid of Chris Benoit and support him in whatever he was carrying around." He said wrestlers are reeling from the deaths of so many of his peers, it's hard to accept. He said depression is a big part of it and this will only magnify it. Abrams asked if people misread Benoit or was it steroids or another kind of drug that set him off. Bret said that should be left up to forensic experts. He said WWE had a strong drug testing policy in place since Eddie Guerrero died. He said they stamped out steroids. "There is no happy medium; it's no steroids, period," he said. He again said he hopes it's not related to steroids. But then he added that steroids may have been a factor and you need to look at the info as it comes in.

I was as big of a fan of Benoit as anyone but I completely agree with you. The details we are finding out is that he is nothing but a cold blooded murderer. If he had just snapped and killed both in the span of a few minutes that would be at least somewhat understandable. But what we have found out is that there was premeditation involved and he knew EXACTLY what he was doing. This is contrary to what I thought as early as this morning but the sad reality is Benoit was not this great guy everyone thought he was but rather an abusive husband and a calculating cowardly murderer who planned and executed the killing of a woman and a defenseless child...his own damn child. I am absolutely pissed at this scumbag and the more I think about it, the more I get angry about it. The shock of it is still there but Benoit has etched his name into professional wrestling history as one of the most evil and sadistic people to ever be associated with it. After reading the details, which I'm sure there will be more to come, he didn't snap and just do something...he was just a cold blooded bastard, a cold hearted murderer and a coward. I can't believe that just one week ago he was probably my favorite...now I wish he could be brought back to life just to see him killed again.

Its crossed my mind quite a few times. Someone on fox this afternoon after the press conference talked about such a mental breakdown and in some cases he compared it to completely blacking out and not realizing what you are doing. However, he tied nancy hands and feet togethor and waited up to a day to kill his son. That doesnt sound like someone suffering from roid rage...just a complete mental case. I suppose we will never know what he was thinking and why he did it.

I'm sorry, but who the F is the WWE trying to kid with this? Okay maybe Benoit cycled off in April and this weekend, but come on. Has there been a "postive" test (for steriods and performance enhancers) in the history of the WWF/WWE's "testing program" Im guessing lashley tested negative too.

I just love it when people make stuff up that noone ever said. Noone is saying the wwe or mcmahon is done but there is no doubt in my mind at least that his company and their policies are going to be scrutinized a lot and since its apparent he won't police his own company, there is a decent chance the government will do it for him. Likewise, noone, including me, is saying mcmahon or the wwe is personally responsible for benoits actions. Benoit is totally at fault here.. HOWEVER, you are a fool if you don't acknowledge the way the wwe operates and what it expects out of its talent has an effect on people in a negative way with respect to drugs to keep going or to look a certain way, while mcmahon and the wwe turn a blind eye to it. Those who say this is just another story that will fade quickly seem to forget this is really uncharted waters as we are dealing with a popular and well known top wwe star that has murdered his family. I would be absolutely shocked if its just ignored and forgotten in a couple of days or weeks if its found out that steriods played a role, even if they were legally prescribed. I certainly could be wrong that this is a turning point but if anything would change the way the wwe operates or forcing the government finally stepping in, this is it.

We all knew that but if challenged they'd simply say he had them legally by prescription as they said there.....They didn't say he had illegal drugs. They might be able to explain benoit's prescriptions but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see people like bobby lashley are so jacked up on steroids. If mcmahon and the wwe didn't put such huge pressure on wrestlers to look a certain way and frown upon anyone taking time off to heal up, things could be a lot better...at least with respect to current and former wwe stars. I have a feeling Mcmahon is going to rule the day they decided not to enforce the wellness policy more and take this shit seriously.

man the folks on fox are really really hitting the wwe/wrestling hard with regard to all the young deaths and talking about big consequences for wrestling if its found out this was roid rage. this could be a monumental turning point in wrestling

Well we knew this would happen but cnn just got done talking about benoit and they noted how many wrestlers have died young, noting it was "two pages long". This tragedy is going to shine a very bright and negative light on Mcmahon, the wwe and wrestling in general and I have a feeling major changes are going to be in store. Maybe..just maybe, if Mcmahon and the wwe had actually enforced their pathetic "wellness policy", Benoit would have been off those steriods long ago and this maybe not would have happened. Certainly its no excuse for what Benoit did but steriod rage certainly could have played a role in this. It can all be traced back in a way to what Mcmahon and the wwe expect certain wrestlers to look like and the grueling scedule they are put through. If there is any good that comes from this, lets hope that it changes the policies of how much the wrestlers are put through and the idiotic stigma that if they take time off due to injuries its frowned upon by the wwe. MSNBC just reported 2 of the 3 autopsy reports have been recieved and they are waiting for the 3rd to start the news conference.

There are more ways to determine time of death in the short term than just body temp. Once a person is dead, the body goes through certain transformations/decay, some of which I'm sure are almost immediate. And the degree to which those changes occur can give a clue on the time of death. So its not just about body temp.

Doesn't sound good at all. Just hope that's been badly phrased. where did you get this from?

there is nothing wrong with wondering what happened and discussing it as long as you don't try to present it as fact. So please spare us the self-righteous act

Scherer description sounds absolutely frightening. As someone else said, what could be worse than killing them. I might be way off base but I suppose he might have mutilated them or something else. I hate speculating like this but when someone words it like that, it would appear something more than just suffocating them to death occurred and it makes you wonder.

I doubt very many really care right now.