Lei Tong

Yeah, it's the one by krikit posted at the UFC.

I really wish UFC would find a way to put more submissions into their little video packages, as opposed to purely strikes & the occasional slam. Then again, the UFC seems pretty intent on turning most of their fights into Toughman-esque brawls, so I guess it's to be expected.

Well, I was actually refferring to the excitement of each guy's bouts, so my bad. Switch Baroni with someone like Robbie Lawler or Alksandr Emelianenko and it'll probably fit better. BTW- A Kawjiri highlight video: http://s23.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=06JZTRR...TI1XLXZKVKOU2Q5

I get hard at the prospect of Kid mauling Morkevicius if given the chance... almost as hard as at the thought of him defeating Melendez.

Jason Black is a now retired welterweight who never got a shot at the big time because: 1) He was a boring fighter 2) Militech already had 2 welterweights fighting in the UFC (Hughes & Lawler). He was a good, undefeated fighter (with a single draw to spoiler/awesome L&P fighter Antonio McKee) with some good wins. Upon his retirement, he was widely considered a Top 5/10 WW amongst those "in the know," putting him right behind Ricardo Almeida in the "Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda" category.

Some other quick points: - For another example of why you don't move straight back: Swick vs. Schoenauer from last night. - Liddell has KO'ed two Top 5 level LHW's (Couture & Babalu) in the first round, as well as defeat Ortiz, Overeem, Belfort, White & Randleman. Amongst LHW's, he has the highest ovlume of wins vs. Top fighters. And if he fights as smart and as paced as he did vs. Couture, I dare say there's no one in the world he couldn't beat.

Then why should any of the top fighters ever bother fighting each other? Would it simply be better if Shaolin simply continued to choke overmatched fighters out in the first round or, rather than putting on a less entertaining display against Hansen? Hell, Gomi gets more credit LOSING to Hansen than Shaolin gets for CHOKING HIM INTO SUBMISSION. Put Ribeiro against Gomi's PRIDE competition, and he likely submits every single one of them in the first round. Frankly, I'll take a fighter who puts on workmanlike performances against tough competition regularly (Kawajiri), than a fighter who can look like a million bucks against cans (Gomi). I'll call Sean Sherk & Jason Black better fighters than Phil Baroni anyday. Also, comparing Gomi to Couture is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS. Both Tito Ortiz & Chuck Liddell were in the top 5 of the LHW division when Couture UTTERLY DOMINATED them (and Belfort was in the Top 10). Gomi has not come within miles of doing anything that impressive. I really think what all this comes down to is exposure. The vast majority of North American fans don't have access to non-PRIDE Japanese shows, or even small-time American shows, and thus it becomes a matter of "If I can't see it, it doesn't exist." Why weren't people paying attention to Gomi when he started making his fighting style more appealing than his previously L&P style (vs. Mishima, Ertl & Hansen)? Because he didn't fight in the UFC, which at the time was the only place most fans saw LW fighters. Yet as soon as PRIDE brings him in: "Hey, I've heard about this guy before... I've never seen him fight before these past couple of exciting bouts, nor have I ever bothered thinking of him as a Top 10 fighter, but if Bas & Mauro say he's the best, it must be true!" The fact is, there have been tons upon tons of fighters who got no repsect until they showed up in either of the Big 2, in spite of already being at an elite level, including the likes of Noguiera & Fedor.

- And what about Hansen's right hand/knee to the body combo in the opening seconds of the round (shown on replay)? Or the fact he threw more punches from his guard than Gomi did whilst on top of him? And further, kept Gomi from landing even a single meaningful punch during the entire round? The fact is, everyone going into the final round knew Gomi was going to have to either knock Hansen down, "catch" him, dominate him, or outright finish him to win the fight. As it was, the vast majority saw the 3rd round as a draw, with neither fighter doing enough to win the round. - I don't see how you can't see the size difference in those pictures alone. And again, Pulver had NOT been a force at 155lbs+ for a LONG time. If he had, he wouldn't have dropped to FW to try and renew his career. If Georges. St. Pierre had to fight Rich Franklin on 3 weeks notice after having trained to fight Frank Trigg, I wouldn't give Franklin a whole lot of credit for that win either. - Any boxing trainer will tell you moving straight back is the WORST thing you can do when under pressure from a striker. See Belfort/Silva. - And I'd say that if Silva can't handle the likes of Leigh Remedios on the ground, he isn't that good. I'd say almost every single fighter in the Top 15 of the division is better (excluding Boku off the top of my head). - As I've already pointed out, the difference between wins over Thomson, Mishima & Franca is that they were all ranked and clearly known of as better fighters at LW than the likes of Silva, Pulver & Azaredo. So are Joachim Hansen & Mitsuhiro Ishida (whom Shaolin beat). AND, Kawajiri beat both Edwards & Shaolin, TWO Top 5 caliber fighters, which is 2 more than Gomi ever has in his career. So it looks like this: 1) Kawajiri: wins over 2 Top 5 fighters (Ribeiro, Yves) & 2 Top 15 fighters (Bow & Nakayama). 2) Shaolin: wins over a top 5 fighter (Hansen), a Top 10 fighter (Kawajiri) and 3 Top 15 fighters (Bow, Nakayama & Ishida) 3) Hansen: wins over a Top 5 fighter (Gomi), & 2 Top 15 fighters (Uno, Nakayama) 4) Edwards: wins over 3 Top 10 fighters (Thomson, Franca x2 & Mishima) 5) Gomi: wins over a Top 10 fighter (Mishima) & 2 Top 15 fighters (Gracie & Bow) PLEASE tell me how Gomi could be ranked ahead of any of the 4 above? - Kawajiri has already accoplished far more than Gomi, so him being called the best LW in the world will doubtfully bother me. I could only hope that he gets half of the crddit Gomi does on a regular basis. - He's fought 2 larger men in his last 2 bouts, yes, but when you're being hyped as the best fighter in your weight class, you should be expected to face the best in your class, not simply decent-to-good fighters. He has yet to do that in his PRIDE tenure thus far.

IIRC, Mir tried bulking up to about 270 during a lay-off at one point, around the same time Roy Nelson tooled him in grappling comeptition. In regards to Ludwig, he's still a bit better as a striker than the vast majority of guys in MMA; on the flip side, he's not unbeatable on his feet, as Sam Morgan's recent KO of him shows. Oh, well. Just gives me more reason to hype Akira Kikuchi.

The thing is, very few fighters can simply "bulk up" and do better than they had been, unless they wre draining themselves making weight. More often than not, they either end up putting on too much excess weight (Murilo Rua), or drain themselves anyways when they have to cut that weight (Frank Mir).

Mine are nigh identical, but move Overeem ahead of Tito.

Question: outside of conjecture based on in ring performances (in other words, strictly on who they have beaten), do you honestly think GOmi should be ranked #1 in the division?

-Gomi got the best of Hansen standing, but again, he couldn't continue to do it when it counted: the 3rd round. In the 3rd round he essentially gave up the fight with a lackadaizacal effort from the top. Hell, people often give UFC shit for overrating the importance of simply obtaining and keeping top position. The fact is, Gomi lost the bout fairly, and I don't see how he could be ranked ahead of Hansen with comparable resumes and a head-to-head loss. - Pulver had NO size advantage. Gomi used that weight advantage every single time he struck Pulver. Weight plays a factor not only in the grapping aspect of MMA, but striking as well. The fact is, Pulver was never a big LW, and the talent in the weight division had become so that the size he gives up is no longer negated by his skills. Also, I don't know how you can say that Gomi's size advanatge didn't help him. This day and age in MMA, a fight between skilled fighters seperated by 15+lbs is never going to favor the smaller guy. As far as technique, Gomi was able to shrug off Pulver's shots and bang through Pulver's guard without any fear of retribution from a weaker fighter. The fact is, physical advantages had as much to do with that win as skill. - No one's arguing that Lugwig isn't a good striker, but combined with the Maxwell loss, it's hard to give THAT much credit to yet another fighter for doing the same, especially one of arguablly more skill. - I don't necessarily see how the flaws Azaredo exposed were fixed in the Silva fight, outside of Gomi taking the fight to the ground more often. As a striker, Gomi has always relied on his chin & wreslting ability to get him out of danger, as opposed to solid defense. Also, I meant to say "good" ground fighters (in regards to Silva & Bennet).over lackluster competition, but when faced with a decent grund fighter (Remedios, who's ground skills are far from elite), he needs his stand-up skills. As far more well rounded, I'd say Thomson & Edwards jump out. Both have solid striking, as well as good ground & submission skills. Thomson has some good takedown skills as well, and Yves has good takedown defense. - As stated before, he won the fight based on the judging criteria. Besides, I rank him two spots ahead of Gomi because not only did he beat Gomi, but Yves Edwards has a better resume than Gomi as well. and thus gets placed just ahead of Takanori as well. Also, Hansen doesn't deal with the "overrated" stigma simply because no one ever talkes about him as being the #1 LW in the world as they do Gomi. - As those pictures showed, Sherdog's stats are often inaccurate, from fighter stats to match endings, etc. Gomi has bulked up since arriving in Bushido (thanks to the 160lbs limit). He's bigger than Shaolin overall, and also bulkier than Edwards & Hansen. The issue was never that big until he came to PRIDE and started feasting on smaller men en route to his current overrated stature.

-The scores for Hansen/Gomi were 28-28, 29-28, & 29-28. Due to Shooto's "catch" rules, locked submissions give the applier an extra half point (Shooto also uses half points), and further the judges gave Hansen an extra half point, giving Hansen a full point advanatge in the 3rd. Gomi got the takedowns, but Hansen had no problem defending on his back of oft-times outworked him from there. The fact is, Gomi went into that round knowing he was down, but continued to be lackadaizacal and apparently assumed the judges would give him the benefit of the doubt. - How does Pulver being undersized not matter? That's like saying Amar Suloev should've gotten credit for taking out Din Thomas, in spite of being nearly 25lbs. heavier than him at fight time. The fact is, Pulver had not been a threat at 155lbs, much less 160lbs in a long time, and had been training for a fight at 17lbs. below that only a month before. And if Gomi gets credit for taking out Pulver on his feet, what about Duane Ludwig & Jason Maxwell? I certainly don't hear much clamoring to get those extremely limited fighters ranked. -I think Gomi's well-roundedness is a bit overrated. Azaredo exposed his standing defense a good bit, and Silva & Bennett are hardly ground fighters. His wrestling still stands up to the test, but his takedown D is questionable (Hansen has pretty average takedowns; certainaly uncomparable to the likes of Shaolin's). - Trying to invalidate Gomi's legitimate loss to Hansen? Come on. Anyways, Penn was actually the 2nd fighter he's fought in his career who matched up to him size-wise, and it showed. Besides that, nobody would care much about the Penn loss if Gomi were beating some ranked opponents, instead of undersized opponents and limited regional fighters.

Actually, Shooto's weight classes are similar to American ones, but their closest counterparts are usually listed differently. For example (and the most relevant one in this case), 155lbs. is the limit for LW division in the US, while in Shooto that's the WW limit.

Imanari/hansen was not simply a mismatch of size, but of styles. Imanari is pretty much a living exagerration of Rumina Sato's flaws, and the G&P beating Hansen gave Sato is pretty infamous.

Gomi vs. Shaolin: It's unknown whether Gomi has Kawajiri's takedown defense, but if not, expect a repeat of Penn mounting Gomi and then taking his back, with Ribeiro in the role of BJ. I also doubt Gomi was ever as strong as Kawajiri at 155, though PRIDE's extra 5 lbs. limit has helped him fill out a bit. I'd give a 60-40 advantage to Shaolin. Gomi vs. Yves: Though I doubt he'd have any more success G&P'ing the lanky Yves anymore than Kawajiri did (who struggled to do damage within Yves' guard), I could see him controlling him to a JD. However, Gomi might get a hair up his ass to try and prove something standing, and thus get KO'ed in short order, regardless of his admittedly good chin. However, his match with Silva would seem to indicate that he learned a lesson in the bout with Azeredo. 60-40 Gomi. However, this is all theoretical. The fact is, Gomi has lost to the 2 best fighters he's fought, and has only 1, arguably 2 wins vs. ranked opponents.

PS- I'll try and hook you up with some fights and/or events when I can.

An impressive showing vs. sub Top 20 opponent is HARDLY reason to rank Gomi ahead of the 4 men ranked above him. Some comparisons of recent opponents (Hansen excluded, since you don't argue with him above Gomi): Takanori Gomi: Joachim Hansen- Top 10 LW at the time with wins over Nakayama & Sato, now widely considered Top 5. Lost a Maj. Decision. B.J. Penn- Formerly argued as a the number 1 LW & WW in the world at different points. Numerous big wins. Submitted to an RNC in Rd.3 Jadson Costa- undersized and very limited Chute Boxe fighter. 3-3-1 with no notable wins. TKO'ed in Rd.1 Ralph Gracie- had a good win over former Top 10 LW Dokonjonosuke Mishima in his only other bout this millenium. KO'ed in 6 seconds. Fabio Mello- undersized BTT member. 3-3, with his biggest win being over the extremely limited Takumi Yano. TKO'ed in Rd.1 Charles Bennet- tough journeyman LW. Submitted by Takumi Nakayama & Dave Hisquierdo immediately before & after, respectively. TKO'ed via kimura (technical submission) in Rd.1 Jens Pulver- undersized (sensing a patern here?) Top 10 FW. Was coming off solid wins over former Top 10 FW's Stephan Palling & Naoya Uematsu. 2-2 in his previous 4 fights at LW, with losses to Jason Maxwell & Duane Ludwig. KO'ed in Rd.1 Luiz Azaredo- decent former WW with wins mostly over inexperienced fighters as of late (sans a good showing vs. Buscape and a loss vs. Tony DeSouza). KO'ed in Rd.1 Jean Silva- exciting but untested LW. Biggest wins over Leigh Remeidios & Gerald Strebendt (who's also drawn with & loss to, respectively). Won a unanimous decision. Tatsuya Kawajiri: Takumi Nakayama- solid LW. Plenty of losses to top LW's. Rebounded slightly to win the KOTC LW title, though that's far from anything to write home about. TKO'ed in Rd.1 Yves Edwards- Top 10 LW at the time. Came into his own immediately after, with wins over Hermes Franca (2), Josh Thompson & Mishima. Won a Unanimous Decision. Ryan Bow- solid LW. Previously lost decisions to a few Top 10 LW's (and Top 5 FW Joao Roque). Rebounded slightly before losing to teammate Kotetsu Boku. TKO'ed in Rd.1 Caol Uno- former Top 10 LW. No really notable wins since 2002, though had good showings in losses to Franca & Hansen and a draw with Penn. Draw. Mindaugas Laurinaitis- Winless Lithuanian. Not notworthy. TKO'ed in Rd.2 Vitor Ribeiro- Considered by most non-Americans as the number 1 LW in the world at the time. TKO'ed in Rd.2 Jani Lax- European Shooto champion. A few solid wins, but far from world class. TKO'ed in Rd.1 Kim In Seok- supposedly one of Korea's best fighters in his weight, but that's not saying much. TKO'ed in Rd.1 Luiz Firmino- Formerly being built as a big test for Gomi, he was derailed by Azaredo. Tough, if unspectacular fighter. Won a unanimous decision. Yves Edwards: Eddie Ruiz- tough wrestler. Had nothing much to offer but a granite chin. Won a unanimous decision. Tatsuya Kawajiri- See his record. Lost a unanimous decision. Nick Agallar- solid. 8-1 in last 9, with the loss to Yves and wins over Mitsuoka & Diniz. TKO'ed in the 2nd round. Deshaun Johnson- strictly a JTTS. Hermes Franca (x2)- formerly a Top 10 LW, he's dropped to 2-4 in his last 6, with disputed decision losses to Edwards & Thompson. Won 2 split decisions. Josh Thomson- solid, Top 10 LW. Wins over Franca, Strebendt, & Sugie. KO'ed in the 1st. Naoyuki Kotani- decent LW who has yet to actualy beat anyone notable outside of some solid FW's, including Tokoro & Morkevicius. TKO'ed in the 1st. Dokonjonosuke Mishima- former Top 10 LW. Has some solid wins, but has routinely lost to his best comeptition. Submitted in the 1st round. Vitor Ribeiro: Eddie Yagin- formerly undefeated Hawaiian. Tough but limited fighter. TKO'ed via sidechoke (techincal submission) in the 3rd. Tatsuya Kawajiri- See his profile. Won via unanimous decision; lost the rematch via 2nd round TKO. Ryan Bow- Previously mentioned. Won a majority decision. Ivan Menjivar- Top 10 FW. His only losses have been to opponents out of his weight class. Won a unanimous decision. Joachim Hansen- Previously mentioned. Fresh of the Gomi win and widely considered in th Top 3. Submitted via sidechoke, Rd.2 Mitsuhiro Ishida- Top 15 LW. Tough Japanese wrestling stylist with wins over Boku & Sugie. Won a unanimous decision. Tetsuji Kato- former Top 5 WW. On the downside of his career, with losses to Mishima, Lynn & Ribeiro. Submitted via sidechoke, Rd.3. Gerald Strebendt- Exciting, nigh .500 LW. Only notable win vs. Siva. Submitted via guillotine choke in the 1st. My rankings: 1) Kawajiri 2) Shaolin 3) Hansen 4) Edwards 5) Gomi

Gomi being ranked at number 5 in my LW rankings is as much respect as he deserves.

Come on...Jorge Paez and JCC were no less shopworn than Marquez, Eastman, and Joppy. I honestly believe that Rafael Ruelas was somewhat effected by the state of mind of his brother that night. Vargas and David Reid were in the same boat as Taylor. Both were brought along nicely by their promoters/managers against an array of veterans, different styles, and contenders. The difference is that Vargas/Reid met a prime Felix Trinidad at the top, Taylor got to face an older rustier Hopkins. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Eastman? Where'd he come from? Paez I'll give you (though he still stacks up to much of Taylor's weak resume himself), but though as shopworn and disadvantaged in size as much of Taylor's opposition, JCC was a greater fighter than any on Taylor's resume, and DLH stopped him in 4. Also, the difference between Vargas'/Reid's & Taylor's list of opponents is one of quality, as well.

I still stand by the fact that up until this past Saturday, Taylor's competition was weak considering his hype and ranking. By his 23rd fight, DLH had fought Ruelas, Chavez, Leija, Molina & Paez, to name a few. Within 20 fights, Vargas fought Campas, Quartey, Marquez, etc. Did Taylor do better than I expected? Yes. But at the same time, his win has as much to do with Nard's inactivity as anything Taylor did. In the end, Taylor squeeked out a decision against a smaller, aged champion who left him bruised, battered & concussed.

BTW- There have also been plenty of other fighters with better opponents on their ledgers at the point of their careers that Taylor is now at.

- "Very impressive" is taking it a bit far. White was a decent journeyman, nothing more. - Marquez was an outsized former Jr.MW who was 7 years past his prime and has skin like tissue paper. - Joppy came out of retirement for a payday, plain and simple He looked totally out of it, and yet even on a few occasions when Jermain had him dead to rights, he couldn't pull the trigger. - But for as overrated as though two wins are, they're btter than Daniel Edouard, who was a prospect in no one's mind. The win over Gibbs made him a slight name, but nothing more. The other guy to blemish his record, Beaupierre, is nothing special himself and recently got blasted in 2 by true prospect Kelly Pavlik. He's simply a decent brawler who's clueless about how to deal with a jab in his face. Also, I never claimed Hopkins recent resume has been great as of late, but if you really think a past-his-prime former Jr.MW, a shot, formerly retired champion and a one-hit wonder of a "prospect" are all that better than Hopkins' recent opponents... then there's nothing I can really say in response to that.

There actually is a short writeup on Taylor in this very thread, in the first post. He is definitly a legit challenge...to summarize my preview earlier - He is young, talented, and hungry...he had a great amateur career and has beaten an impressive lists of opponents already as a pro. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hardly an impressive list. The former World champions on his resume were either retired and/or Jr. Middleweights.