justcoz

Rudo, I agree with you for the most part. If anything, I'm playing devil's advocate here for Vince and trying to comprehend why he refuses to see the writing on the wall. There has to be more to it and I think it does really all come down to family... keeping the business with the family and having his daughter learn how to run the show (the product part of it at least). I think we could all agree that if Paul Heyman was made creative director in 2001 and the product was producing as poorly as it has the past four years - Heyman would be demoted or unemployed by now. There is an obvious tolerance there for Stephanie that wouldn't exist for a non-family member and this is all I'm really getting at. The production and pace of the show should have absolutely changed years ago. There is no reason that Shane and Stephanie can't be on the BOD and hire wrestling minds, mixed with TV writers, to handle the creative side of things. For Christ sake, they employ Paul Heyman, Jim Cornette and Eric Bischoff. My point by saying that Stephanie knows how creative works by now wasn't to insinuate that she performs the job well. She understands the creative process and how to work backstage for the production of a Raw and Smackdown. She has that understanding already so for the sake of the product - move her on to something else already. What I was getting at with my posts is trying to understand why Vince hasn't done this already and what his line of thinking could possibly be. And of course he is never going to admit to errors, dropping the ball on angles or creating new stars and personalities. It's never been his style.

All that I'm saying is he may not be as out-of-touch as everyone would lead you to believe. Unless you are hanging out with the McMahon family on a regular basis one really wouldn't know. My guess is that Vince does see holes in the product but if you are the baseball coach and your son is the shortstop and underperforming, do you necessarily take him out of the game or do you work closely with him to make him better for the next game? I'd also like to see the company run differently but if you are Vince McMahon and trying to groom one of your children to some day take over the family business - just as Vince Jr. did when Vince Sr. stepped down - what do you do? Remove her from the position just because business is down? Is that the best thing to do when trying to prepare her for one day running the entire show? I personally feel that the four year experiment with Stephanie leading creative has run it's course and she should learn how to work in a capacity like Linda McMahon's position. Stephanie knows how creative operates by now, move her on to something else. Right, there were terrible things that we all complained about even when the product was at it's peak in popularity. There were just characters like Rock, Austin, DX, Foley, etc. that people cared about to wait through the garbage. That isn't the case right now. I think the bigger problem is the talent that people like Johnny Ace are calling up and the breed of wrestler that he seems to get all excited about. I think he's going for a certain look because he feels that is what Vince likes and everyone that works with the company is too preoccupied with making Vince happy. That isn't necessarily Vince's fault. I agree 100%. If Vince truely believed that the company's competition, with the demise of WCW and ECW, is the rest of the entertainment industry, then show us something besides a product with the same look that it had in 1998 trying to pull in an audience with the same stunts, the bimbo pillow fights, etc. If Monday Night Football has a season with declining ratings, they make the changes. The change up the announcers. They make production changes. They don't go into the next season the same show as the previous year. It is complacency and the only reason Vince is still in business right now is because Eric Bischoff came along and forced changes on Vince's presentation of his product. As an indie concert promoter, I'd disagree with you here. It's harder to get people to come out for shows any more even if you have a real quality band. My friend owns a bar and business isn't what it was five years ago. Vince is right about declines all around, I do tend to agree that this is used as an excuse more than it should be however. But there does seem to be an audience that isn't going anywhere. They've been watching a stale uninspired product for four years now and they haven't gone any where yet. The things that are good... your HBK/Edge match, the storyline leading into the Batista turn, Foley vs. Orton, etc. is keeping a larger audience more so than Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels did when the business cycled down following the Hogan era. The one thing that fascinates me about pro wrestling is that rarely do you find people who admit that they are current fans but almost everyone was a fan of a specific era. You always encounter something like "I used to watch it back with Bruno Sammartino" or whoever. Although I really don't see it in the ratings, I do believe there is a certain audience that knows when Wrestlemania time is and tune in during that time to observe things. That's why I think the best thing for WWE right now is doing whatever it takes to get WWE 24/7 in as many homes as possible and trying to build it into a full fledged network with advertising, etc. rather than a video on demand service.

Does anyone believe deep down inside that Vince McMahon knows the product isn't very good right now and that HHH/Stephanie's power hurts locker room morale just like the Kliq did previously? He just doesn't do anything about it because he wants to make damn sure that one of his children is capable of running the show when he's gone and he gets some kind of jollies from testing Stephanie's McMahonerisms and seeing if she can overcome obstacles to succeed? In some ways, Vince beating Ted Turner and buying his competition may have been the end Vince's fire. Maybe now he's just sort of in a leader/fatherly role and trying to guide his successors? Also, I'm sure Vince realizes that Brock busted his neck for the company (almost killing himself at WM as well) but who can blame him for being pissed? The money, hours and manpower that went into pushing him to the top - the aggrevation of trying to keep him happy, actually agreeing on letting him out of his contract to persue a dream and then watching him go the media and pretty much disrespect the business and acting like he was above it.

Of course, you are oozing machismo mang....

Seriously, we are treated like an audience of a bunch of ignorant inbred hicks that don't buy Pepsi or Coke products, beer or male sexual enhancement products. The $500 tickets to Wrestlemania is a good example. I'm not saying that wrestling doesn't have a redneck presence or that the industry never attracts the lowest common denominator - it does - but there is no reason advertisers should treat it in such a low-brow 'the audience is beneath us' manner. We purchase video games, CD's, DVD's, books and go to the movies. We eat fast food, have the occassional bout with erectile disfunction, drink alcohol, surf the net, buy homes, need car insurance and all of that.

Spike should put TNA on at 8pm to 9:30 at least. Perhaps a UFC show within the Raw timeslot as well.

I'm waiting for Eric Bischoff and Shelton Benjamin in Collateral.

There is no reason to suspect that it's a work because Lita isn't even with Matt in storylines, she's married to Kane. If the Kane thing didn't happen and Lita and V1 were together in storylines, then I'd be buying that it's potentially a work. I think this is as real as it gets. Edge, just married for the second time in October, just screwed a woman that's involved with one of his better friends in the business. Now if this could be turned into a storyline... great! I think the real-life tension is probably too heavy however.

Bradshaw will still be entertaining without the championship. It was never the character or his portrayal of the character that I had a problem with. My problem was with the fact that he didn't need the championship. Had he been playing this role, without the title, leading into Wrestlemania, I would possibly even suggest that he be given the championship. It was just the fact that they used the belt to establish his character when it should have been vice versa. My suggestion would be to bring an HBK, Jericho or Christian over to Smackdown. Any of those guys could get a good match out of Cena. Dare I say, let RVD return to WWE as a heel, with Heyman maybe as his "agent", looking to get him the WWE title, main events and movie roles. It would be hard to get people to boo RVD but it's possible against Cena.

Are there any Divas besides Molly and Stacey that have real tits? My God, those things look awful. Some of these women I prefer seeing clothed rather than looking at their deformed tits.

I wouldn't say ALL fans have rejected Orton as a babyface. He still gets huge pops with scattered boos. His pops remind me of someone from the 80's, like Magnum TA or Ricky Morton, who would get huge pops from females in the audience and scattered boos from the men. He's got a definite 80's face vibe. The same thing happened in the 90's, when they turned Shawn Michaels from a cool heel to a weak babyface around the Boyhood Dream theme. The women still went crazy for HBK but the guys even resorted to cheering Sid. He played a much cooler heel and they could've went further with the Legend Killer angle that would have brought on more interesting television than his current head of the midcard role.

I'd rather see a Mordecai/Viscera tag team with James Mitchell managing.

People who overlook the classic records and fun music made by KISS from 1974-1978 and dismiss them for being about nothing but makeup, theatrics, bombs and pyro. I'll put Strutter, Love Her All I Can, C'mon and Love Me, Christine Sixteen, Mr. Speed and the entire Ace Frehley solo album right next to anything dubbed "classic rock" from that generation and state that it sounds better and has withstood the test of time rather nicely. Great musicians? Fuck no. Good enough to make some decent tunes, that's all. Of course the band will always be known for the makeup, partly due to Gene being a money grubbing whore and marketing himself like he's Mickey Mouse, but don't tell me the music was never there. They wouldn't have lasted 31 years without some good tunes. 13 of those years being without the makeup. They did produce a lot of SUCK, with Paul wanting to ride every trend that came along in the 80's, but the music was still an important part of the package.

Off topic but the KISS albums from 1974-1978 did not contain terrible songs but rather some of the best rock n roll from that era. Were KISS talented musicians? Hell no. Just like The Ramones though, the simplicity in what they were doing made the songs fun. Just like WWE, yes the packaging is very important with the glitz and the hype but by the end of the PPV, if you don't see any decent wrestling, the audience would dwindle. KISS haven't lasted 31 years because of makeup and pyro alone. People needed songs to sing along to and there are plenty of good ones from their catalog. Back to the subject at hand, the ECW PPV will only succeed with Paul Heyman's involvement in the planning and creative product. I really hope that despite their differences, and the reasons Paul doesn't work well with other WWE creative team members, Vince will realize that this is Paul's baby and the ECW fan base is aware and respects this. Deep down, I think Vince believes in Paul's passion and knowledge of the business but for whatever reason values the opinion of people like Stephanie, HHH and Gerwitz more.

When I heard about Chris Candido working in OVW, hoping to get another shot in WWE, I was holding out hope that they'd run an angle with the Bodydonna and Simon Dean. I really wanted to see Simon Dean hyping a WWE Diva return of Sunny, playing the video packages of her back in the day, only to realize when she returned that she was overweight. He would try to use his Simon System to whip her back into shape and she'd ultimately get tired of it, turn face and Candido could come to her rescue. She could then cut promos about how she was the original WWE Diva and how she succeeded in the business for her beauty and her brains rather than implants. Where was everyone who downloaded photos of her when she was fighting addictions. Where is she ever credited for changing the business for women? That type of thing. I also think that Simon Dean should totally do a gimmick where he's the innovator of wrestling thanks to his Simon System. WWE's problems aren't the return of gimmicks. It's that they don't have fun with the characters. Hurricane is a super hero who hasn't had one arch nemesis. Eugene is a wrestling idiot savant who always gets outsmarted and never wins. Simon Dean's act is already thin because they've thrown the gimmick out there without any ideas as to where to take it to make people care and maintain interest.

Rock is only 30, right?

There is no reason why they can't mix up the talent every few months yet keep the brands seperate. Creative just doesn't have the ability to do so. They've had some interesting things going on with the dueling GM bit but for whatever reason they fail to follow through. They could've went further with GM Vince vs. GM Flair. They had some interesting dynamics going on between GM Bischoff and GM Stephanie. Where was their kiss going??? Most recently, during the draft lottery, the dynamics between Bischoff and Heyman made that episode. As a smart fan (or even a casual) who followed all of the companies during the 90's - it was believable seeing Bischoff and Heyman compete for the better show. It was just an interesting dynamic to have men who were once Vince's competition run each of his brands. Before the show ended however they screwed up that up by having Heyman quit Smackdown to be followed by the weak GM Angle. They could have partially recreated the vibe of the Monday Night Wars by having talent occassionally jump to the other brand (when their contracts expire for example). The GM's could orchestrate trades. They could tap into legitimate sports by having the GM's acknowledge perhaps that someone's contract is up for renewal and contemplate if they are willing to let this particular talent go to open up their pocket books or re-sign them. Angles where the talent and their agents try to push the GM into a larger contract (which would also serve to bring back the role of a wrestling manager). Maybe even have good strong wrestling manager characters serve as a common link between shows by representing talent in each of the brands? Set several trade deadlines througout the year maybe? One after Wrestlemania and maybe another after Summerslam? There is nothing wrong with having a someone from one show make a suprise walk-in on the competing show if it's somehow tied into one show or GM trying to play a power move on their competition. Teddy Long on RAW this past Monday was fine as he was there to disrupt the show and steal one of their top talents. Bischoff showing up during the Chuck/Billy Wedding was alright because he was their to wreak havoc and bring attention to RAW. Remember the pop when he removed his Reverend mask? People ate that shit up as if it was someone from RAW showing up on Nitro. By doing nothing like this, WWE runs into the problem they've come to now with the brand split. One year of the same restrictive matchups and uninteresting repetetive television. They currently try to compensate by bringing in talent that is too green or just bad (Snitsky, Heidenreich, etc.) just to introduce new characters to freshen up the shows. Meanwhile, talent already on their roster is misused or restricted because they don't jump brands to switch off who they are programmed with so their characters get tired and stale. I like the idea of having one Unified World Heavyweight Champion going back and forth between shows. I like the idea of having a Smackdown TV Champion and a RAW TV Champion in addition to the U.S. and Intercontinental Champions. I like the idea of bringing back the territories for new talent to develop. Use OVW. Bring ROH into the fold so TNA doesn't have access to the talent they build. Maybe two more - LA and Calgary. Have them do small-budget television, get them on syndication in their markets or maybe show their shows on WWE 24/7. Hell, if they get back on USA, bring back All American Wrestling spotlighting all of the regional shows. I also believe there should be TWO SEPERATE CREATIVE teams and Vince should capitalize on any tension among creative team members by pitting them against each other to produce the better show. Instead of sending Paul Heyman home because he bugs Stephanie, Gerwitz and HHH - put him in charge of Smackdown's creative department, maybe have Shane work with him and have them try to outperform the RAW team. HHH is Raw's wrestling mind. Heyman is Smackdown's. Stephanie understands the business more by being with HHH and Shane learns from being with Heyman. You are solidifying a future for the company by not just focussing on two people (Steph and HHH) to groom for the future.

The Rundown was way too good of a movie to pull in so much less than Scorpion King and barely more than Walking Tall. I've even seen it rated *** on cable which never rates anything well (whoever rates those movies). With the Hollywood theme, wouldn't it make sense for The Rock to work with someone from Hollywood? Rock vs. Michael Clarke Duncan or Rock vs. Vin Diesel. I understand him wanting to work with Sting in a wrestling dream match scenario but it would also be logical for him to use his Hollywood connections to pull off something that would draw legit media attention to the event and not make today's stars play second to two non-active wrestlers.

Maybe they are waiting until there is an actual audience before they run month's worth of high quality stuff. I want to see some classic matches too but a lot of this channel's potential appeal is just reliving what you grew up on. That would include things that are deemed "bad" from a smark preference. For instance, there may not be a **** classic at that '92 MSG show but I'd want to watch just to watch Bret Hart's face while he teams with the Bushwackers and to see a Shawn Michaels work his way up the card as a singles wrestler. Not to mention listen to Gorilla Monsoon's commentary which I miss so much. I remember back in the day how much I HATED the Bobby Heenan Show. Even at 16 years old, I wanted to see wrestling matches during that half hour. Now that I'm older and I appreciate the legend that is Bobby Heenan - I'd get a kick out of seeing those shows. I'm more into the concept of watching an entire episode of Georgia Championship Wrestling or WWF Superstars or Challenge rather than Steamboat vs. Savage for the 100th time.

Punk hasn't been involved with TNA since the Teddy Hart incident.

sorry man :-) it probably is annoying to any one besides the two of us... this thread has basically turned into a debate between me and Desperate Housewife.

Understand that I was also painted into a corner where I had to justify that I wasn't "changing my tune", as you stated (and yes, you did pick a fight with me by calling me out as you did and saying that what I posted was bullshit) when I stated that my source had provided me with information previously that didn't come through. It wasn't bullshit and it wasn't me looking for attention. Perhaps I should've refrained by taking it any further but when you feel like you have to defend your position, you do tend to take things further. You may misinterpret it and I completely understand where you're coming from. My point in sharing that tidbit was to explain that I was told of something that never happened, not a "haha, I know something you don't" type thing. Fact is, I was told that Tommy Dreamer was going to show up at the December PPV and it didn't happen. Like I said, it could've just been a case of those inside TNA messing with the Internet fan base they chat with, to stir up discussion and create interest in the PPV. Maybe I'm the BUTT of their joke by falling for it? My only purpose in bringing it up was in relation to the Abyss situation and how we were messaged the following day and told that it was all good and he was re-signing. When there was no confirmation that this did indeed happen, I doubted my source. I've had those drunken 2am conversations (typically online) where I've learned more and more about the business than before. You really don't know me or who I know. So it's really not you're position to tell me what I can and what I can't discuss. It wouldn't have gone as far as it did had you not jumped on my shit. You can say it's me looking for attention but let me direct you to a mirror.

Um... Your comments directed towards me? You basically telling me that what I was posting was bullshit when it turned out to be true after all, Abyss didn't go anywhere and stayed in TNA, then covering your ass when someone stated that you were wrong by saying I was wrong and Meltzer was right? When did I ever claim that I know "everything going on in TNA". Less than five things have ever been mentioned to me by my "sources". I'm not starting up a wrestling site called Scoops: TNA or anything claiming to possess insider information. If anything, I'm trying to remain low key about it because I was told, "don't share this with anyone" and I'm trying not to piss off anyone. There are also people's jobs involved. And you know this how? IT'S THE TRUTH. Just think back to Raven's ECW history and you should be able to figure out who the rumored guy was. It's what was said to me by someone employed with the company. It never happened which caused me to doubt my source a little. I thought perhaps they were just messing with the smarks they chat with online to generate interest in the PPV. Something that I suggested when the Abyss re-signing thing seemed to be stagnant and you posted some smart ass comment about me changing my story, which I tried to maintain a sense of humor about by telling you a little about my background in politics. You know, flip-floppers. Name the holes in my posts beyond you just doubting me? The majority of the posts on this board are from people questioning things that TNA are doing. Comparing the holes in the product to the same holes in WWE's product. I agree, there are diehards blind to the product's faults. One of my "sources" happens to be one of those people, they can justify every little thing, no matter how much you argue with them. I'm not particularly a huge TNA fan and I don't even pretend to be an expert on their product, although I've been watching more with the replays on FoxSports. In closing, you have every right to doubt me and that's fine. I'd probably be the same way towards someone who just popped up on a fan forum claiming to "know people". The thing is, in my case, I wasn't necessarily trying to flaunt it, I posted something about Abyss staying with the company and people wanted sources. My source was someone that I know, involved with TNA, that I trust. I didn't attempt to glamorize it or anything and you seem to be acting as if I did.

Strangely enough, I'm not. It may seem that way but it's not. Some of the people involved with TNA used to work for the WWF during the Russo era and frequented AOL at a real down time in WWF business. You can have online friends with connections, you know? I'm not pretending to be Meltzer or anything and I don't get every bit of information but sometimes, between that friend and another friend involved in TNA's website, I get some info. For whatever reason, you've been on my case since I posted. That's okay, we are all wrong sometimes.

Okay, picture for a moment that ECW still existed. WCW folded but TNA came in and produced the product we have today. Joey Styles is on commentary, calling a PPV ironman main event between Samoa Joe and CM Punk. Would he not take a pot shot directed towards "the other company" and their Kevin Nash vs. Jeff Jarrett main event??? It's 2005, not 1998. The main company in the business right now has had HHH on top for six years and haven't been able to really establish any true breakout stars. Guys that pick up attendence, draw ratings and bring in PPV buyrates. That same company is also demanding that all of their talent, regardless of their strengths and different styles, wrestle the same style and slow their pace down. Suddenly we are watching guys like Rey Misterio and Tajiri sit in headlocks for four minutes. Here comes TNA with a national spotlight, PPV and many of the guys considered to be "the future of the business" from ROH and the indies. The X Division captures the attention of all smarts. All these guys need is some strong booking and time on the mic to establish their characters. Instead of getting that time needed we get treated to retreads like Jarrett, Luger, Nash, Hall, DDP, etc. So, yes, your "future of the business" is put on the back burner. I understand where Styles is coming from - to a point - get the big names in there to draw interest and then showcase the different styles of wrestling in comparison to WWE. The problem with this is that they've already brought in guys like Piper, Luger, Sting, Savage and now the Outsiders and DDP and people still aren't buying the PPV's or tuning in. Add that to your Toby Keith's, Johnny Fairplay's, football players and your NASCAR hicks (one of which is getting on the PPV as a wrestler). I believe there is a place for people like Piper, Nash, Hall and DDP but it isn't in the main event. It's hosting a Piper's Pit segment, it's using Nash, Hall or DDP as announcers. Perhaps mid card feuds. Something like Hall and Nash vs. a reformed New Age Outlaws. Not world title matches.