justcoz

In Matt Hardy's world, it's a tragedy. If a series of events completely change your life as you know it, you would consider those misfortunes tragic no matter how trivial they may seem to outsiders. It wasn't the best choice of words but I doubt the guy is in the clearest mind of thinking. A rebuttal with a few sentences and treating the net as your friend is better than blowing your brains out, which a lot of people would do if they had to deal with this much in such a short period of time.

I know where you are coming from and I agree with you to an extent. His internet whining is getting to levels where you feel sorry for him.... and not in the good way... What I'm getting at is he typed two or three sentences when I'm sure he could've expressed more, especially out of impulse in the minutes following the broadcast. I think he understands the line of getting people to be sympathetic towards you vs. feeling sorry for you and realizes he's dancing on that line. At the same time, of course he had to say something regarding the angle. That's more than likely what people were coming to his website for. His comments. Lita is a skank. Chris Candido getting his life straightened out and dying in such a freakish manner is more of a tragedy to us. This guy was betrayed by his woman, one of his better friends and lost his dream job and six figure annual income. On top of it all, he can't work and pretty much has to sit at home and browse the net where people like us are analyzing his life and situation. And now he has the scenario being played out on camera by the company that fired him. Oh yeah, he also has a f'd up brother too. This is a lot of shit for any one man to take and not all of us have to see it played out on television either in almost a manner that mocks your torture.

He's watching his ex girlfriend make out with his ex best friend as it's being broadcast to millions by the company who fired him. If the man wants to dub it a "real-life tragedy" he most certainly can. It's a re-enactment of the hell that's been his real-life for the past month. I agree that he definitely needs to move on but him typing a few short sentences in response to watching his former employer, ex girlfriend and once good friend essentially cash in on his misery is really nothing all that extreme. He could've went on a rant, unleashed more personal stuff on each of them and been completely bitter and vindictive. Instead he left it with a very brief comment and said that it sickened him. What did you expect? For him to say, "Wow, what an awesome Raw last night, Lita and Edge did a wonderful job solidifying Lita as a heel to the audience, they are both just so unlikeable, it's a match made in heaven, I'm looking forward to seeing how this angle plays out and how Kane is booked as the jilted ex-lover, God, i wish it could have been me in that role. That would be so money!"

Pretty self explanatory. My girlfriend was somewhat suprised to hear my indie music loving self cranking his solo album and the new track with Snoop. She was kind enough to remind me that he's from N Synch who represent an era of popular music that I despised greatly. I've forgiven him. I think he's the closest thing to a modern day peak-era Michael Jackson in current music. Should I be ashamed of my fondness for some of his work?

You do know I wasn't serious about it being a work. I just haven't seen any other mention of the death beyond here. I enjoyed the McMahon/Helmsley era. I think they should still be playing on their marriage today with the company disgruntled over HHH's dominance and political power and Steph/HHH trying to overtake the company from Vince.

I still haven't found this reported anywhere? It's a work I tell ya! He's secretly somewhere writing the return to USA episode of Raw!

Where is the mention of Kreski's death on pwinsider? Not that I'm doubting it but I just can't find the actual mention....

Actually Morgan can cut a real good promo. So creative of course gives him a gimmick where he can't speak.

They were also chanting boring during Edge and Jericho. They gave Benjamin no reaction at all and were sitting on their hands during most of Benjamin-HBK. And yes, I'm mad that they weren't engaged in smark chants, they have just as much tradition in that market at MSG, it should be the same type of audience. New York didn't let me down. The U.K. didn't let me down. I would have expected Omaha or some place to let me down. Not Boston.

Ok, MikeSC doesn't like much of later ECW.... Wasn't my promo killer? I have writing credits for two shows on public access, do you think I can get in to WWE creative?

Yes, RVD vs. Jerry Lynn, totally unwatchable stuff...

Boston really sucked last night. No reaction during much of SHelton vs. HBK. No chants at Lita. Weak chants at Edge. No significant pop for Christian. Would they have even marked out for the Duke of Dorchester Pete Doherty? Or the Boston Brawler?

Paul Heyman promo.... Raw edition of the draft lottery.... JR and Jerry Lawler are speaking about matches to come, later on Raw. The camera focusses on Paul Heyman walking down the aisle. Heyman climbs into the ring as Lawler and Ross speculate what in the hell he's doing here. For those of you who don't remember me... I'm Paul Heyman! The most revolutionary idea man in professional wrestling, or as Vince McMahon refers to it, sports entertainment, today. You see, years ago, I created a little cult phenemenon in Philadelphia called E-C-W! A product that didn't insult your intelligence as a wrestling fan. We pushed the envelope, showcased great athletes and the world took notice. Unfortunately so did Vincent Kennedy McMahon and Eric Bischoff who collectively stole all of our concepts and talent! And as we were forced off of network television, thanks to Vince McMahon and Spike TV execs, negotiating us off the air - Vince McMahon stood over me, checkbook in hand, saying, "Paul, we'd like to drink your Kool-Aid", come join us. They sat me next to that fat piece of sh*t in the cowboy hat over there, attempted to neuter me and make me a company man! Except you don't take away my balls, I'm from New York! They took the trademark of ECW and profitted from my creation. yet will they take my suggestions as to how to improve WWE's current product? Hell no. They won't listen. They maneuvered me out of the GM position on Smackdown because under my leadership Smackdown was out performing HHH's show on Monday nights. Yes, that's right, I said the HHH show. Here's a fact people. HHH gets more on-air time than any other Raw performer because he's married to Stephanie McMahon and has his giagantic nose permanently affixed up Vince McMahon's ass. Cue No Chance In Hell.... Here comes Vince. Heyman, "Hey Vince, calm down, try not to tear both of your quads trying to perform another athletic stunt to rival your entrance to the ring at the Royal Rumble! Vince: I'm going to askly you nicely, since I've actually known you going back to when you were young, skinny and had hair on the top of your head, you have one minute to get the hell off of my show or I will forever have you blackballed from any WWE event. Heyman: "You are already paying me to sit at home and watch Raw and Smackdown. While still making money from my creation!" Vince: "and cleaning up your inept business messes - perhaps if you would have payed more attention to some business and accounting classes in high school, rather than following around Lou Albano, the Grand Wizard and Freddie Blassie at Madison Square Garden, you'd be the one making money from your creation today. I bailed you out you ungrateful son-of-a-bitch. Heyman: "Yah, you bailed me out... so now I'm just supposed to sit at home, collect my check, and be out of the business I love! While I watch so much of the talent that were built in ECW get their legs cut from under them due to mindless WWE political BS. Screw You! Let me put on one show! One show for my pride! One show so those men in your locker room, who graced ECW rings, can feel at home again rather than continue to be held back, limited and unable to showcase their true talents and abilities thanks to the politics that you allow to run rampant within your company! Go ask Eric Bischoff how well politics and personal agendas work within a wrestling company. Right after he's done picking up your dry cleaning. Security at this point begins to escort Heyman out of the ring. Vince: "I tell you what, if you'd like to gather up those old ECW wrestlers for one last hurrah, I'll get you the PPV slot. You can't have the ECW name without my seal of approval. Be sure to tell the talent that you choose that Vince McMahon will be paying them and my checks actually clear, unlike their previous ECW memories. Go ahead, do it Paul. How much money can you make me? Let me see that ECW pride you speak of! Now get the hell off of Raw!

I posted this in another thread. Lita announces that the baby was Matt Hardy's all along, Lita had an abortion at the request of Edge, who she's been sleeping with the entire time. Kane never slept with her because he couldn't perform and was so stupid he believed the baby could still be his. Kane flips out and out comes Edge who throws a fireball in his face, eliminating Kane from the picture for a few months. Enter Matt Hardy.

It wasn't a pot shot against Meltzer. It's the truth, Meltzer isn't in a WWE locker room and he isn't witnessing anything first hand. It's all based on his sources. Yes, Vince has called him from to time, because he's been following the trends of the wrestling business since what, the late 70's, early 80's? His sheet is like the the gospel to the industry so of course his opinion on the product would be valued to a point. Remember reading how Hogan would take the Observer so seriously? What I said however is true. He's just a glorified version of you and I, relying on info from sources, he just happens to have strong industry connections and respect within the industry for his knowledge of the business. He's essentially the jesus christ of all smart fans. The orginator. I wasn't dissing him, I was merely stating that we assume whatever he reports is the truth, when much of it is based more on the quality of his sources than anything.

Yes, depending on how far you want to go with these type of angles, it could get dangerous and create distrust among the wrestlers towards management - if you go THAT far to the point where you are constantly working the boys in the locker room. I'm not suggesting that. I'm more or less suggesting taking real aspects of the locker room/outside of the ring/behind the scenes and relay them into current storylines in a manner that doesn't go over the heads of the marks and intrigues the smart fans. I do disagree that occassionally working the locker room would create that much distrust and negativity towards management. Having your top star married to the creative director of the company get 30-0 minutes of air-time on a 125 minute show is more damaging to locker room morale than the locker room being worked somewhat in an angle that could draw them money. I really see no difference between something like that and actors on a teleivision series not knowing if their character is getting killed off of until they shoot the season finale - which happens all the time in Hollywood. But it's been a consistent thing with the online wrestling community since I first signed on to the net in 1995. It may be individual people but they are the same people joining in on conversations about workrate and botched angles, ie smart fans. There is always going to be a concern with online fans that they are being worked... you think this is a negative... they would rebel or alienate a wrestler they are a fan of (you pointed out Matt Hardy alienating his online fan base) if they find out they are worked... i disagree and think it's wishful thinking on their part that they are being worked because it makes it fun to be a smart fan... they would want to feel like part of the product, rather than the invisible minority. Michael Cole: Tazz, reports on the internet this week about a backstage altercation between Eddie Guerrerro and Kurt Angle, after one of their matches. Tazz: Cole, sometimes the passions of WWE performers is difficult to restrict to just the wrestling ring. Kurt and Eddie, despite being opponents, typically respect each other on a professional level outside of the ring. They are both extremely competitive and carry egos however. It will be interesting to measure the intensity of tonight's match since things are gradually becoming a bit more personal in addition to the competitive element that already existed between the two men. Cole: Both men reprimanded by WWE talent coordinators for the activity reported on the internet. Tonight, it goes from the locker room to the wrestling ring, stay tuned for Kurt Angle vs. Eddie Guerrerro. Yes, you are tipping your hand to smart fans that they are working elements of a shoot situation (or was it a work all along and there really was no backstage tension, hmmmm) into the television production but it's more intriguing than what they are doing right now. It would initiate more discussion than Kurt dousing Eddie's ride in milk or whatever current creative comes up with. The marks would get it whether they read Meltzer or not. Also, I think it's overestimated that just smart fans, who spend hours on the net discussing this stuff, like you and I, are the only people who can access the wrestling observer site. Anyone can google 'wrestling headlines' and become smart to elements of the business, without being part of the online community or subscribing to the Observer. You're missing the point. Smart fans believed all of this before police reports or before the respective parties acknowledged anything to the public. I think, although I may be wrong, they acknowledged the backstage Michaels/Hart situation on Raw. I can't think back to whether they did or if they created an angle based on it. There was a different kind of heat and intrigue whenever Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart were on camera together because even the marks understood the tension between the two. It wasn't just restricted to smart world. A six minute segment where Simon Dean is talking about his patented Simon System is also pointless and probably requires the same amount of time from the creative team as it would to acknowledge anything like I've described or to post something on wwe.com or leak something to insiders. One is more likely to draw some kind of money, initiate some kind of conversation and generate some kind of drama and heat. I think it's what I'm suggesting more than Simon Dean getting his shake dumped on him by Rosey.

And I would suggest you do the same because you aren't following me at all.... You are still talking about building entire angles out of fooling smart fans and no where did I suggest that. I'm again just suggesting that you use the internet and smart fans as an instrument in your storytelling. You can manipulate their emotions by playing off of real situations and use that in your storytelling to build an angle. There would be some kind of scripted/fictional elements as well but it's not as difficult as you make it sound to fool smart fans. When a worker is injured or has a falling out with their company, even when they die, there are those on the net who still think they are being worked and it's a storyline. There are those who won't believe a single thing until it's reported by someone like Meltzer, Keller or Scherer. So when one of them report of tension between Eddie and Kurt Angle, where is the harm in playing off of that on-air? It's something that would manipulate a smart fans emotions, get them more intrigued by a PPV match, while not going over the head of a mark. Remember when Bret and Shawn had their backstage scuffle at the Raw taping? Do we know if that was real or not? Do we really know that Shawn was jumped in a Syracuse parking lot? Did we see Flair attack Bischoff? Jericho take down Goldberg? Neither did Meltzer or Keller. We are just going on second, sometimes third party info, fed to us by some pseudo wrestling journalist that are sitting at their homes in California, Minnesota or New Jersey, no where near the arenas, creative team meetings, etc. I don't see it being difficult at all to play them or smart fans in general into believing something or at least talking about whether they think it's a work or shoot and watching to see how it plays out. It seems more logical than ignoring that segment of your audience and having creative write around situations like Lita being in front of a live audience because the chants from that "small minority" of their audience are damaging to her babyface push.

That's cool. This is bothering me in my current drunken state.

Billy Idol's cover of Monie Monie - this goes back to childhood

And wouldn't Stephanie seeking control of the company (or brand) fit into the overall concept of Evolution? Perhaps even have Shane tied in with the Evolution for a few months, pitting them against Vince, before Shane eventually realizes that Stephanie and HHH are determined to run the show, associates himself with Bischoff and restarts WCW. Throw Shelton Benjamin in there as the new young prospect to succeed HHH in Evolution. Use Batista as the face that respects Vince Mcmahon and tradition. I dare a Beverly Hills 90210 writer to come up with something seemingly so logical (I'm sure some of you could pick it apart as to why it wouldn't work). It has insider elements but would you, as a smart fan, be more interested in how such an angle would play out as opposed to Batista fearing the pedigree? That's what I'm talking about. Not angles designed specifically for a smart audience but angles with a touch of real elements. The backstage/insider stuff shouldn't be more interesting than a creative team with dozens of members.

I read a quote of Russo from a recent interview and really agreed with him on one particular point. It's ridiculous for WWE to not acknowledge the HHH/Stephanie relationship on-air. How is it not within his current character that HHH is so freaking power hungry that he's married into the McMahon family? The reasoning he gets constant camera time and gets to make matches at his own will, all the way down to assigning Coach as a referee, is because of that connection. Maybe even make Stephanie the GM of RAW to add more fuel to his dominance. Vince, as CEO of the company, would grow so disgruntled by Stephanie and HHH's power trip, that he would have Shane and Eric Bischoff bring back WCW, perhaps Paul Heyman (but they'll be stupid and not renew him) to bring back ECW and in Vince's words "shake things up". Just an idea that I've had for years.

I've been posting here for years (mostly WWE's folder) and I've occassionally added my internet radio stream/website link to my signature. I haven't done this as of late and I'd still like to plug what I'm doing and ask that you check out my broadcast stream if you are interested. It can be a pretty weird eclectic mix of music ranging from Iron Maiden to Devendra Banhart to TV on The Radio, Ted Leo, Jennifer Gentle and Arcade Fire. Plus, I feature a lot of local Pittsburgh music, trying to get those bands some exposure. I'm always open to playlist suggestions, in fact, I often check out the music board here to see what random posters are listening to so thanks to some of you for clueing me in to some music I wouldn't have found otherwise. PITTSBURGH NET RADIO

i'm justcoz.... just because...

This is what disturbs me the most. Vince is really coming across like Verne Gagne Y2K here. How could the opinion of HHH, Stephanie McMahon, Johnny Ace and Fit Finley blind him from the obvious? The fans don't really have a personal hatred towards Lita. To be honest with you, I'm not even sure if there is that much of a genuine love towards Matt. He's just the sympathetic figure here. Fans just want to have fun by giving Lita some shit. You can't hide her and protect her from the wrath that she has coming. You can confiscate all the signs you want. The fact that this has absolutely nothing to do with current storylines, they aren't supposed to be chanting and know that it's not what the company wants will just make them chant all the more. Matt Hardy going to TNA isn't going to make TNA competition. But how you could have thousands of fans chanting for Matt at MSG, then overseas one week later, and allow anyone but YOU to make any $$$ from that fact is beyond me.

I'm not necessarily saying that you have to fool the smart fans, just use them in the whole grand scheme of things. They are a target audience just like the marks. Their emotions can be manipulated just like the marks. Often, as we've seen with the Hardy situation, they guide the marks into the chants, etc. If wrestlers in the 70's went to such great extremes to protect kayfabe as to not take the believability away from the marks, why would it be so stressful to do basically the same thing, in a different manner, today? It's not scripting things specifically for the internet or smart audience. It's using them to plant the seeds for future storylines. It can be something as simple as planting a story on the net that there are negative feelings between Kurt Angle and Eddie Guerrerro or telling someone like Matt Hardy to disappear for a few months, wrestle indies and be vocal against the company in the media. It could run the danger of being over done but I don't see anything wrong with using this forum and this audience to generate interest in your product. But if Matt turned around and re-signed with the company tomorrow, would that also piss off his internet fan base? What's exactly the difference between things just working out a certain way or being pre-planned to some extent? And would anyone really know one way or the other? Perhaps the boys in the locker room but if they cared about the business enough, they'd keep their mouths shut. It would all be speculative as to whether something was truely a work or shoot. We are taking the word of the internet and sheet writers as being the gospel truth when the truth is it's all coming from 'sources', none of which we know are accurate or not. If anything, it would confuse all the internet and sheet writers as to what sources to trust and who not to trust. It would be just as easy to plant something like Bret Hart returning to the WWF to lead the WCW Invasion as it would a Jericho/Goldberg backstage fight. As far as we know It broke the norm however. It was a desperate change of philosophies on the WWF's part and suddenly every fan knew that Vince wasn't just an announcer but he actually ran the damn company. Bret didn't "do the right thing" on his way out of the company, that being to drop the title as he was leaving for WCW. It was very much an "insider" angle, whether it was a work or not. And it's still one of the most effective angles ever in getting crowd reaction, surpassing NWO and DX catch phrases.