cbacon

I'll have to check with my wife and get back to you on this. C-Bacon, what would you propose instead of capitalism? Some form of socialism? Ideally, a form of anarcho-socialism would provide for a far more democratic and egalitarian society.

Because you are 23 years old and still complaining about Capitalism like an angry 17 year old vegan. Seriouslly, grow up. I'm 24, actually. And i'm not at all angry, you're the one throwing a hissy fit. I think the problem is that most of you guys are not looking at my arguments constructively, but rather opt for the typical knee-jerk reactions because the arguments I make are radical. I'm not trying to paint the effects of capitalism as this sort of mass conspiracy by a bunch of suits, this is just systemic results of artificial social constructs that are pretty archaic and people accept it as the status quo. I mean, I pretty much disagree with 90% Czech's politicial views, but at least he's adding something in this thread. And it's not because he's more or less agreeing with some of the points i've made, it's because he's not taking cheap insult route (hence, I rarely read anything Invader posts, as he never adds anything, ever) You can be bitter about society's failings or you can work towards changing things, which of course requires faith that humanity can change, which you can get from studying history and looking at the changes that have happened with the success of progressive values. The first step in working towards dismantling oppression is to understand it.

I'm no liberal >:C Why so angry, floyd?

I guess that comes along with the whole structure of the teacher-student relationship in general. The point you made about the door being closed before a certain time is a perfect example of the teacher-student authority complex. I think it is natural to question authority and hierarchy because these things are inhumane and irrational. Man, that's what school is, suppressing deviance. That's what discipline is for, and all kids are subject to discipline in school. Even something as basic as having to ask to go the bathroom is completely humiliating and degrading. Probably the worst thing that discipline can do is break you so that you don't question authority anymore and you internalize your own oppression, you "learn your place." Of course, from an authoritarian perspective, this is viewed as a positive.

This says it all. I don't think I'd want any kid of mine subjected to elementary school. Quite frankly I have zero faith in our trained and certified professionals because they are teaching based on a philosophy that knowledge is imparted, when learning is the product of the activity of learners. I think I could create a better learning environment at home. However, if my kid wanted to go to school because his friends were all there and he found it exciting and stimulating, I wouldn't deny it to him. It should be up to him. But most parents just send their kids to school without any thought. Who else is in a better position to decide, the parent? School may be right for some kids and wrong for others (or maybe you believe school is right for just about everyone?). But it surely can't be parents who have the answer as to which is right. They know what will work out best for themselves as parents, and they have some idea how their parents handled the situation with them, and they have some idea what influences they want their kid to be subjected to, but that's all they know, and the key point I've been trying to make is that these are not the best things to base decisions you're making about another person's life on. Obviously the only person who can know for sure whether school is right for a child is the child. That doesn't mean that parents can't help the kid come a decision. I still don't know why kids can't set their own bedtime. I had a bedtime until I was 16 but stayed up late reading for as long as I can remember. What did I learn? I learned I can sleep whenever I want and it's my problem if I'm tired because of it. What lesson about sleep could possibly be more valuable to learn than that?

Well really, we need to be honest about the purpose of school. The purpose of primary education (including high school) is to train people to be exploited by capitalism, and the purpose of university is more or less to teach people to manage capitalism (essentially as middlemen between the capitalists and the people most directly exploited by them). There are two main ways in which primary education's central purpose is to create people who are willing to be exploited by capitalism (again, I'm including high school in this). The first is through hierarchical/authority structures. The second main way is through the concept of grades (which, now that I think of it, actually supports the hierarchies). It teaches people that they have a specific value which can be calculated. It also teaches people that accomplishments, successes, etc. are measurable quantities. Among other things, this supports the very capitalist notion of "results". It also teaches that people whose results are quantitatively larger than yours are more deserving of reward. These are entirely capitalist concepts, and if children weren't inculcated with them from such a young age it would be virtually impossible for a capitalist market to exist. There are other ways. For example, the idea that people need to be at a specific place at a specific time supports capitalist control over people's time. The same can be said of deadlines. Is there anything you've really ever valued that couldn't have been finished a week later? Or a month later? That's a rough outline. There's certainly much more than that in terms of structure, and I haven't even begun to get into the ways that the material itself is intended to support capitalist exploitation.

What about "Next Exit"? Great opener

Yeah, me too.

ageist

lol tobble

I'm probably the only person who prefers Antics over Turn Out the Bright Lights Antics is definitely on par with TOBL

They sound worse out of context

Teachers are among many workers who are underpaid, tru

Contsructive objection?

Glad I set the bar

If i ever have kids, it'll be up to them if they want to go to school

Why do we have schools based on telling kids what to do? It makes no more sense than kids telling teachers what to do. Children are not inferior to adults, so why must they do what adults say? Just "because?" I believe that workers ought not to be told what to do by their bosses but ultimately you can quit a job if you find it unsatisfactory. Kids can't do the same. They are slaves to the system. Apparently some American states have harsh truancy laws that can get the kid or their parents in trouble with the law if a kid skips school. I agree it's not the same as political repression but it is oppression of young people who are denied the right to control their own destiny. I believe kids should be considered our social equals (more importantly, their parents' and teachers' social equals), anything less than equality is slavery. As to Jerk's idea that kids lack the "self-discipline" needed to educate themselves, I think kids are naturally curious and love learning and exploring the world around them, and it's not until they get to school that they become frustrated because their learning becomes dictated from above. Schools are what teach kids how to hate learning. They are not just part of the problem, they are the problem and so cannot be part of the solution. edit: And really, you can't actually teach anything. People learn things that they want to learn on their own, and if they don't want to learn them they don't. "Teaching" can only get in the way. At best you can facilitate self-directed learning. That's why kids learn nothing in schools - they memorize to pass tests, but that is not learning.

I would have much rather been listening to music then paying attention in grade 12 math

Well, that goes back to my point about kids wanting to be in class in the first place. And the essence of the student-teacher relationship remain one based on control, not one based on equality and comradeship. Until that changes you're going to continue to see the problems caused by dysfunctional relationships, and that's what all problems in schools really are.

There's no reason music players shouldn't be allowed. But a better question is who is a teacher to "allow" or "disallow" anything at all? All government happens with the consent of the governed. Teachers only have power over students because students accept it as fact. What would happen if they didn't?

Invader, do you really believe you are better than some people and others better than you? Accepting that children are oppressed means accepting our own roles as oppressor and oppressed. This is not easy because it's personal. It means we have oppressed and been oppressed by our siblings. It means our parents have been our oppressors. However, since we all have the experience of being both oppressor and oppressed anyway, due to racism, sexism, heterosexism, and classism, this really isn't anything new. But it is personal. The personal is political.

I've spent a lot of time on this and on other boards discussing the many things our American friends are doing to harm the world. I thought it was time to celebrate the myriad things Americans do every day, everywhere, to make the world a better place. When we look beyond the brutal dishonesty of American foreign policy we see the enormous contribution Americans have made globally in science, the arts and philanthropy. Take Bill Gates and Bill Clinton and their incredible contributions to fighting the AIDS epidemic in the Third World. This is just one small example of Americans showing that their country is more than just a genocidal delivery system for fascism. *thumbs up* http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

I'd go so far as to say kids need these camera phones to document the atrocious behaviour of some teachers, who have no other reason to fear being filmed and youtubed. The fact is when kids finally complain about a teacher they aren't believed unless they have video proof. I mean look at any of the myriad "crazy teacher" vids on youtube. I don't care what the teachers' union says, that stuff needs to be documented so that kind of totally unacceptable behaviour can be addressed. And really, the only argument to support banning these things is the tired old authoritarian, "kids need to be controlled." Remember what it was like to be a kid? It's pretty easy to justify treating a group of people like shit if you can pretend you're better than them, but that's what we call racism and sexism, rite?

Says the guy who advocates the death penalty for teenagers that give pot to two year olds. Are you saying people aren't equal in the real world? I think that problem can be pretty much eliminated by changing the class atmosphere. We don't have that problem in the universities. Students are disruptive when they don't want to be there. In student-directed education everyone is there because they want to be. I don't believe students disrespect teachers for no reason. I would bet the teachers in question could stand to learn a thing or two about respect. We've all had plenty of experience with teachers that treat students with disrespect. If a student wants to call a teacher a dick that's an issue for the student and the teacher to settle the same way you and I would settle it if I called you a dick. There's no need for "disciplinary" action of any kind. Many students feel that being forced to attend class is a waste of their time. If teachers are abused by students daily then the reverse is also true. But that's like saying that some kids are "abusive" towards their parents. The problems are caused by the nature of the relationship. You can't have respect without equality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unschool

Ever wonder why students feel the need to be disruptive in the first place?