Firestarter

Hmm? Oh, it was a complete non sequitur. Sorry. I must have posted in the wrong thread. Carry on.

So you would define a mindless party-line Republican drone as someone who disagrees with the GOP on all the issues cited above?

Once again you perception is flawed. Nobody has ripped anything here. All that I've seen are a few sorry excuses for post that are wrong. "It was the shouting of a man too angry to realize how badly he had been wounded." - Martin Gardner on Mr Belloc Still Objects

Just as well. Since college classes have practically zero relevance to anything you'll eventually get paid to do, you should at least enjoy yourself.

When Eagan469 gets the better of you, even as a bandwagon-jumper, it's time to throw in the towel. As Ripper said, some people just plain sukc at teh Itnernet.

Excellent analogies and excellent arguments all around, JotW. Thanks for doing the research on this one; I don't know much about the issue and it was enlightening to see some of the original sources.

"What our enemies have begun, we shall finish." - President George W Bush, Ellis Island 2101 EDT 9/11/02 Two years ago this day, thousands of your countrymen died. Remember. They died in terror, screaming, in an apocalypse of fire and smoke. Remember. They died in defiance, hurling themselves from skyscrapers, choosing a quick death over the tortuous execution prescribed for them by Moslem terrorists. Remember. They died in acts of heroism and self-sacrifice, bound by duty, by honour, by nobility to place the lives of others before their own. REMEMBER. Remember. For this day, from the vertiginous skies, the dead look down upon you. Their eyes are grimed with ash, their lips are torn and smeared with blood, their limbs are broken and crushed. But they point to your heart, and their arms are steady; their hands are straight. Their gaze is cold and clear, and when they speak, their voices make the heavens tremble. And those awful voices demand with one voice: "Are you not ashamed?" "How do you commemorate our lives by offering excuses for those who took our lives away? How do you choke down the lies that will murder those we loved and left in your care? How do you so blandly accept life day after day, when we have died? How can you endure one more breath, knowing that the enemy is upon you, knowing that we must join war without end, knowing that the lines of good and evil are demarcated, and the battle lines are drawn? How? How dare you sit in placid apathy? How dare you do nothing? Did we die for nothing? Did you learn nothing from our deaths? How many more must die?" "How many more?" Look up at the sky and answer them. Look up, damn you! They demand your respect. And they deserve an answer. I know what my answer is. No more. Never. Never again. I will never forget. And I will never forgive. What will your answer be? God bless the United States of America. May He grant peace to her dead, solace and courage to those they left behind, and honour to their memory. "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" - Revelation 6:10

"I expect a great reward in heaven," the admitted and unrepentant terrorist declared, claiming that his murders were "God's work." He said: "I am looking forward to glory," adding that those who shared his religious convictions should follow his example and martyr themselves in order to murder more Americans. As a result of various threats received by law enforcement officials, so-called "soft targets" throughout the state of Florida implemented increased security measures following his execution. Police forces were placed on heightened alert and bomb squads were stationed at sensitive areas. Banner of Liberty article CNN article

Oh, for goodness sakes.

Correct, but I can't answer it. Can you?

No, as Vyce pointed out, when you withdraw what you're saying is that the price of winning is greater than you're willing to pay.

The criticism and the disclaimer are both fair, but when was the last time France, Italy, or Canada unilaterally deposed a regime for being a tyranny? I can't think of a single instance. I'm really not trying to rag on Canada; I'm just saying that Canada is not an independent threat to radical Islam and never will be. On the other hand, by her very nature, America is such a threat and always will be. Very true.

I can't speak for anyone else on the board, but I know I would be. In fact, I'd be even angrier. If terrorists are going to strike anyone in the Western world, it had better be us. We're the best equipped to deal with this evil. We're the real threat to the terrorists. Let them attack someone who can fight back. Precisely so. And they're more than landmarks. They are symbols of Western civilisation, Western ideals, and Western success. America is a symbol. That is why we were the first target. Incidentally, Big Ben was a target as well. You are unscathed because we were hit first. CNN story That too. But if we were like them, they wouldn't have anything to be intolerant of. But we aren't anything like them. We have different principles. We have different beliefs. We are their diametric opposites. As I said: we are Americans. And that is why we were attacked.

We withdrew. There's a difference.

No. They were attacked because they have a different religion True. Questionable. Very few Americans have a higher standard of living than Usama Bin Laden could have had he chosen to. Many suicide bombers have graduate degrees in fields that could be lucrative: engineering, for instance. Many come from the upper middle class. Poverty and lack of opportunity are not the root cause of terrorism. Terrorism springs from hope, not despair. True. But why choose the United States? Canada, to take a random example, also has a different (majority) religion. Canadians and Americans have comparable standards of living; certainly, any difference is infinitesimally smaller than the difference between Canadians and Arabs. Why not Canada? Why not France? Why not Italy? Because neither Canada, nor France, nor Italy is as implacable and deadly a threat to tyranny. Because America is known throughout the world as a beacon of liberty, justice, and tolerance. Because America is the most powerful nation in the history of the world. We were attacked because we are Americans. I'm proud to be a citizen of the country which was the first target of the terrorists. It's a high honour, a very welcome compliment. And we've earned it. We've stood against tyranny since our inception. We've stood for democracy, the rule of law, secularism, capitalism, individual rights, civil liberties, women's rights, universal human rights, freedom, liberty, justice, and the American way. That's why we were targeted. We are the antithesis of the terrorists. We are their nemesis - and they know it. If they can't cripple us or demoralise us, we will destroy them utterly. That is why we're in their sights. They know that out of all the nations of the world, because of our ideologies, our convictions, and the reach and magnitude of our power, they have the most to fear from us. And I wouldn't have it any other way. Bring it on.

Not that "COUGH*bullshit*COUGH" was terribly productive either.

True. My initial post was addressed to Americans, but much of it applies to other countries as well. As they would do well to keep in mind.

I've heard this same sentiment expressed many times in the past by many other people, and it was as false then as it is now. Making us grieve is not "what the terrorists want." What the terrorists want is the destruction of America and the unchallenged hegemony of Islam. Remembering the dead, keeping them uppermost in our minds, and acknowledging our obligation to them doesn't weaken us. Expressing respect and sympathy for the friends and families of the dead doesn't weaken us. Praying doesn't weaken us. It makes us human. Let the terrorists watch us grieve. Let them laugh. Let them rejoice. Let them mock. It doesn't matter. It won't make the slightest bit of difference to the military actions being taken against them. Sorrow is a source of strength, not an admission of weakness. We must remember the horrible tragedies of the past. Those tragedies, those deaths, those people - those are what we are are fighting for. We are fighting to ensure that such tragedies never occur again. That so many will never again die at the hands of such savages. That no children will suffer the loss of their parents under such circumstances. That no husbands will mourn the loss of their wives over countless tons of twisted steel and powdered concrete. That no wives will have to watch their husbands plummeting to their deaths as skyscrapers implode behind them. That no parents will have to attend their children's funerals because barbaric Moslems deemed them unworthy of life simply because of who they were. The tragedies of our past are the impetus of today. They give us direction, focus, and conviction. So go ahead, watch the memorials. Listen to The Star-Spangled Banner. Gaze on our flag. Read our Constitution. And look at the faces of our dead. Let the images sear themselves into your eyes, your minds, your hearts. This is why we are at war.

No. But perhaps it should be the "Where will you be when we're next attacked by the terrorists?" thread.

Shut up. I have a headache already.

His rhetoric is deteriorating badly. I mean really, "devour the Americans?" Please.

Procrastinate much?

Seriously, I'm starting to understand why people like Tyler can become so enraptured with him. He's a very good speaker, and he makes substantial points on substantial issues, even if he usually reaches the wrong conclusions. He looks serious and he makes people take him seriously. It'll be easy to take him apart on the issues, but based on personal charisma alone (absolute, though, not relative) I'd much prefer to run against Lieberman, Graham, or Gephardt.

And it's time for another update from... Marney's DNC Ticker Howard Dean: way up (strong, energetic, confident, straightforward, almost magnanimous. Sounded very patriotic note when he mentioned "the respect America is owed.") Al Sharpton: up (witty and surprisingly pleasant, played race card less often than expected; sounded almost balanced and sane at times) Dennis Kucinich: up (unrepentant, unashamed, and unapologetic, but still in Dean's shadow) John Edwards: up a bit (fairly classy, but still undistinguished; starting to give a single-issue candidate impression. Also loses points for a truly godawful tie) Dick Gephardt: down a bit (stumbled a few times, called on hypocrisy, looked weasely and boxy at the same time) John Kerry: down (stiff, waxy performance, waffled almost constantly in the face of direct questions; called on hypocrisy) Bob Graham: down (pompous and unconvincing) Carol Moseley-Braun: down (merely ridiculous, unsubstantial) Joe Lieberman: way down (at least in part because of his support for Israel, and his unpopularity on this issue will seriously damage the Democrats in 2004; also looks petty and peevish, not to mention slow and tired, next to Dean. Pity he still makes the most sense)

Seriously, Dames, check out your local recruiting offices. You can enlist, and they'll pay off some of your loans as well as giving you a substantial sign-up bonus, plus they'll pay you to go to school and finish your degree, and then you can go for OTS in a couple of years if you're so inclined. The pay's excellent, the bonuses multiply, and depending on your state of residence your salary might be tax-exempt. I'd recommend the Air Force first, but I'm prejudiced. Check with all the different services for the best plan and go with it. You seem to have problems mostly with self-discipline, self-respect, and self-confidence, and all can be solved in about a month in basic training.