humanoid92

Bret vs. Owen Shawn vs. Razor

Well, everyone's going to chime in with the PPV matches... my favorite from that crop: Warrior vs. Honky Bret vs. Perfect Virgil vs. DiBiase Bret vs. Owen Razor vs. Shawn Bret vs. Austin Cactus vs. HHH Benoit vs. Shawn vs. HHH Otherwise: Hogan vs. Flair, 91 Hogan vs. Perfect, 90 Perfect vs. Bret, 89 (time limit draw) Savage vs. Warrior, 91 Cage Match (Warrior actually loses) Hogan vs. Boss Man, 89 Cage Match Hogan vs. Savage, 89

Arizona Diamondbacks 77.5 UNDER Atlanta Braves 81.5 OVER Baltimore Orioles 73.5 UNDER Boston Red Sox 90.5 OVER Chicago Cubs 85.5 UNDER Chicago White Sox 86.5 OVER Cincinnati Reds 76.5 OVER Cleveland Indians 84.5 OVER Colorado Rockies 74.5 OVER Detroit Tigers 87.5 UNDER Florida Marlins 78.5 UNDER Houston Astros 78.5 OVER Kansas City Royals 67.5 OVER Los Angeles Angels 89.5 OVER Los Angeles Dodgers 88.5 OVER Milwaukee Brewers 81.5 OVER Minnesota Twins 83.5 OVER New York Mets 88.0 OVER New York Yankees 97.0 UNDER Oakland Athletics 84.5 OVER Philadelphia Phillies 88.5 UNDER Pittsburgh Pirates 71.5 UNDER San Diego Padres 84.0 OVER San Francisco Giants 81.5 UNDER Seattle Mariners 75.5 UNDER St Louis Cardinals 84.5 OVER Tampa Bay Devil Rays 67.0 UNDER Texas Rangers 81.5 UNDER Toronto Blue Jays 86.5 OVER Washington Nationals 66.5 UNDER

No, it's a countdown. I said it was my fifth favorite. I said Ten was my favorite.

Top 10 Favorite Matches: 10) Wrestlemania 2000: Edge & Christian vs. Hardy Boyz vs. Dudley Boyz 9) Wrestlemania XIX: Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho 8) Wrestlemania 13: Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin 7) Wrestlemania VII: Randy Savage vs. Ultimate Warrior 6) Wrestlemania X: Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon 5) Wrestlemania XII: Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels 4) Wrestlemania VIII: Bret Hart vs. Roddy Piper 3) Wrestlemania VIII: Randy Savage vs. Ric Flair 2) Wrestlemania III: Randy Savage vs. Ricky Steamboat 1) Wrestlemania X: Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart Top 5 Favorite Wrestlemanias: 5) IX 4) VIII 3) X-7 2) III 1) X

Also, if you want to talk about ridiculously huge box sets, how about one for each major Title? I know they have "Best of the WWE Championship" already, but what about a more complete effort? You could have feature segments on each champion, with the talking heads commenting on their reign. As for the matches, they could include EVERY title switch, and maybe some notable (or rare) Title defenses in between. The problems with this: 1) It would be terrible in later years. Post-96 or so, there were waaaay too many Title changes to keep up with and the IC and Tag Belts in particular lost all credibility. 2) A Tag Title set would be interesting but it would get really repetitive watching an entire set comprised of only tag team matches (same tired formula in basically every single match). 3) For the WWE Title, most of the switches have been in high profile matches and are already widely available elsewhere. That aside, I think this would be a solid format for a boxset, for say, the glory years of the Intercontinental Title (1986-1996). Or the WWF Title from the Hulkamania era until the Attitude era (beginning with Hogan vs. Shiek and ending with either the Screwjob or Wrestlemania XIV).

I like that idea a lot. Similarly, I think they should do a best of Raw, by "season" (year). Have maybe 15-20 matches, include the best angles/interview segments, recap the major events at the time, etc. This would get unbearable with later years when there's so much crap going on every single week, but for the early years it would work really well. For instance, 1993 can include: Perfect vs. Flair, Career Match Shawn vs. Duggan, Lumberjack Match Kid vs. Razor Kid vs. Razor Shawn vs. Marty Shawn vs. Marty Marty vs. Doink, 2 out of 3 falls Crush vs. Yokozuna Bret vs. Bigelow Steiner Brothers vs. Quebecers, Province of Quebec Rules 20 Man IC Title Finalist Battle Royale Razor vs. Martel Kid vs. Shawn (There are other matches to add if there's more space.) Then you throw in some notable segments and recaps (Money Inc. creams Beefcake, Lawler runs down Bret, Gorilla throws out Heenan, etc.) and you've got yourself Raw Season 1.

My votes: Royal Rumble 1992 Bret vs. Owen, WM X Shawn vs. Razor, WM X Bret vs. Austin, Survivor Series

Metropolitans: Hopefully Wright, Reyes, and Beltran end up on this list someday, but for now, off the top of my head, it's: C- Piazza 1B- Hernandez 2B- Alfonzo 3B- Ho-Jo SS- Harrelson OF- Mazilli OF- Agee OF- Strawberry P- Seaver P- Koosman P- Gooden P- Cone P- Leiter P- Fernandez P- Rick Reed P- Franco P- Orosco P- McDowell P- McGraw Bench C- Carter 1B- Olerud 1B- Kranepool SS- Elster OF- Cleon OF- Staub Apologies to: Ventura, Glavine, Benitez, Viola, Darling, Dykstra, Mookie, McReynolds, Hundley, etc. No apologies to Anthony Young, however.

Heenan: If you'd read the WWF Magazine, you'd know that these guys don't get along. Monsoon: (Almost losing his headset) THAT'S NOT IN THE MAGAZINE!!! WHY DON'T YOU GET SMART!!! Always loved that exchange. Their commentary during the Team Duggan vs. Team Mustafa match made it totally enjoyable. Without Monsoon constantly selling his lines, I don't think Heenan is nearly as revered for his commentary. But even when he spews off a 1/2 assed line about Santana or someone, Monsoon reacts w/ such disgust that it makes the original comment funnier than it was . . . hope that made sense. Haha, classic. I probably haven't seen that show in 8-10 years and I remember that exchange. There was also something along the lines of: Monsoon: You just get the magazine to look at the pictures. Heenan: ...... I can read. Then of course there's Heenan talking about charging a cover for Thanksgiving back in Beverly Hills. I miss those guys.

Steve Austin vs. Bret Hart, 3/23/97, WrestleMania 13, "I Quit" match OR Randy Savage vs. Ric Flair, 4/5/92, WrestleMania VIII, WWF Title Probably not the popular opinion, but a personal preference. Ten Man Tag, Canadian Stampede, 7/6/97 OR Royal Rumble, 1/19/92, Royal Rumble, Winner gets WWF Title This is strange since I voted for Stampede in the last round and against the Rumble, but here we are. Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart, 3/20/94, WrestleMania X OR Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon, 8/27/95, SummerSlam, Ladder match for IC Title I'd pick Bret/Owen WM X over the Shawn/Razor WM X, so I'm obviously going to take it over Summerslam. Randy Savage vs. Ultimate Warrior, 3/24/91, WrestleMania VII, Retirement match OR Bret Hart vs. Curt Hennig, 6/13/93, King of the Ring, KOTR Tournament Semifinals Bret/Perfect is the better match but Savage/Warrior feels so much more important. I can't believe I've voted against Bret 3 out of 4 times. Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind, 6/22/96, Mind Games, WWF Title OR Steve Austin vs. Dude Love, 5/31/98, Over the Edge, No CO/No DQ for WWF Title Voted against both these the first time. Austin/Foley is way the hell overrated. Bret Hart vs. Davey Boy Smith, 8/29/92, SummerSlam, IC Title OR Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon, 3/20/94, WrestleMania X, Ladder Match for IC Title Tough one. Can't really go wrong either way. I'll go Summerslam because it ages better. Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels, 10/5/97, Badd Blood, Hell in a Cell OR Bret Hart vs. Curt Hennig, 8/26/91, SummerSlam, IC Title Hell In A Cell will probably take this by a long shot but I've never really liked HIAC matches all that much (though to be fair, HBK/Taker is by far the best one). Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin, 11/17/96, Survivor Series OR Shawn Michaels vs. Diesel, 4/28/96, Good Friends/Better Enemies, No CO/No DQ for WWF Title Disappointed that Shawn/Diesel made it over Shawn/Jarrett. Had Jarrett made it here, I'd have picked that match over Bret/Austin. Looks to me like the finals will be WM 13 vs. Hell In A Cell. Question: How did you seed these matches? Just in order of nomination? At random?

'46 Bo-Sox Al, just curious: What kind of sim are you using?

Shawn collapsing from Owen's kick. Borderline ones: Edge & Christian vs. Hardyz in a Ladder match on the first TNN Raw. Ten man tag in Dallas

I'm a fan of IX as well. Thought I was the only one. IX only has a bad reputation because of: A) the Hogan stuff at the end and B) there's not a real blowaway **** match. But what people don't realize about that is this: A) At that point, heels NEVER won at the end of the show. The only exception was Flair, and that was a Rumble. Now, you can argue that they should have booked Bret/Savage, or Bret/Flair, or even Bret/Perfect for the Title match. And that's fine. But once the Yoko match was booked, Yoko almost had to go over Bret. Like it or not, he was getting the monster push and they weren't going to have Bret pin him or have him submit to the Sharpshooter. The only alternative was to have a DQ/CO finish. In the last match of WM. And THAT would have definitely been shitted on. Besides, if Bret wins, where do you go with that? The only possible main event program for him left at that particular point in time would have been Bret vs. heel Narcissist Luger. If the plan really was to use the Hogan thing to build up to Bret vs. Hogan a Summerslam with Bret going over and regaining the Title, that would have been huge. This is still one of those matches I'm disappointed never happened. It would have felt very unique- Hogan had only wrestled big monsters or classic heels like Savage, Orndorff, and DiBiase to that point. The only big face vs. face match he did was against Warrior, who's another superman-type figure. If Hulk were to wrestle Bret it would have been such an odd type of match... I always wanted to see how they'd approach that, and thought if they did it right it would be so big for Bret and such a symbolic moment in the company's change of direction. It's one thing to see Bret beat bigger guys (Bigelow, Razor) or technical wrestlers (Perfect, Flair, Shawn) but to see him use his wrestling to beat a superman like Hogan would have been interesting. Bret had never beaten a superman, and in the rare times Hogan lost, it had always been to another superman or a monster (Andre, Warrior, Taker). Would have been cool. As for the ending of WM 9, yeah, you can say it made Bret look weak, but it also opened the door for him to participate in KOTR, where his performance really put that event on the map and made it mean something in subsequent years when guys like Owen, Austin, etc. won it. And we ended up with the Hart Family rivalry being executed perfectly, with Bret's new Title shot culminating at WM X, so it's not like things didn't work out for the better and this screwed up the whole future of the company. I think Vince was trying to top himself with the Hogan ending. WM VIII featured one of the biggest surprise endings ever- Warrior returning out of nowhere to help out Hogan. It was a huge moment. Vince knew Bret/Yoko wouldn't replicate the heat of Hogan/Andre, Hogan/Savage, Hogan/Warrior, or even Hogan/Slaughter. He had to do something huge, and a second Title switch like that had never been done before. Vince had a history of trying to top himself at WM's. The three locations at WM 2 are an example of this. And what about WM 4? Why do you think we got that unprecedented tournament? Because he knew he had nothing to rival Hogan/Andre from the year before. Same thing with WM 6. The Mega Powers exploding would have been near impossible to top- the only thing that could have done it was Hogan/Warrior, so he went with it. With WM 8, he knew Hogan/Sid would be unsatisfying so he had the Warrior return. This trend continued beyond WM 9 too. After he had the two title switches at WM 9, what did he do for WM 10? Booked two title matches ahead of time. WM 11? Went out and recruited a celebrity. I could go on and on. The point is, Vince felt it necessary to orchestrate a surprise ending, and with circumstances the way they were, the pieces were in place to do that. If Hogan was going to get one last run with the Title, it SHOULD have been a surprise like this instead of with months of build up (which is something that would have hurt Bret's momentum much more). And if Yoko was gonna get beat, it SHOULD have been cheap like this (Yoko did get his win back the only time the actually wrestled a full match). B) It's really hard to have long matches outdoors in the desert in the middle of the day. It's like when everyone criticized the Benoit/Eddie match in Iraq and said they were disappointed... well, they weren't gonna go all out and go 25 minutes because it was 120 degrees and they must have burned up just from lying down on the mat. I'm not saying the conditions at WM IX were as bad as they were in Iraq, but it still must have been hot. Everyone in the togas looked comfortable and Doink's make up started to go after about two minutes. And so, the only two matches that got any time were the IC Title and Tag Title matches. And when Beefcake is prominently involved, you have no right to expect **** The classic matches at WM to that point were ones that exceeded expectations by far. WM 7 didn't have any on-paper classics either, but Warrior stepped up big. WM 6 and WM 5 are only worth anything because of the big Hogan main events. WM 4 only has the tournament gimmick. Even the big WM 8 matches, which I love, were never guaranteed classics. So while it's easy to look back at WM 9 and see that there's no Bret/Owen or Bret/Austin or Shawn/Angle, Shawn/Jericho type match, you've got to remember that at the time Savage/Steamboat, Savage/Warrior and the two big matches from the year before were the only WM matches ever that had jumped out and become classics. And one thing that helped them was that they got plenty of time. It's not like unexpected classics happened every year. The thing about WM 9, though, is that while there are no classics, most of it is really solid. Tatanka/Shawn, Steiners/Shrinkers, Perfect/Luger, Bret/Yoko, and even the Money Inc. match are all pretty good. I've got them all in the **1/2-***1/4 range. Crush/Doink was short and had the really cool Double Doinks angle, which I ate up at the time. Razor/Backlund was only a few minutes, and Taker/Gonzalez, well... we knew that was just gonna be a spectacle anyway, and it did made Taker look invincible. There were no squashes here, except for the Razor match. Going in, several matches were very hard to predict. Shawn's IC Title vs. Tatanka's undefeated streak, Money Inc vs. MegaManiacs with the whole Jimmy Hart issue, Perfect's return to WM vs. the undefeated Luger, Taker as an underdog for once, etc. I'll take a solid card like that any day over something like WMs 5 or 6 which had a big Hogan main event, and a DOZEN predicatable, meaningless 2-8 minute undercard matches. I'll take it over WM 13 which had one awesome match, but the rest was garbage and completely directionless. I'll take it over WM 15, which had a paint by numbers main event and nothing else. So when people say 9 is the worst WM ever it bothers me, because I'll take it over lots of others. I think it's somewhere near the middle of the pack myself. No one ever focuses on the cool parts of WM 9. Like the mini-Luger storyline (with Bret at the brunch, and with Perfect in the match), the way ahead of its time Perfect/Shawn angle (tell me you didn't think it was awesome when the camera followed him through the curtain like that), the mystique of Hogan's eye injury, the five solid matches, the awesome outdoor environment/Caesar gimmick, the top-notch commentary, etc. I know that was long, but much more has been said about the negative side of WM 9... so anyway, Dr. V, whenever you feel it necessary to defend WM 9, I've got your back.

86 British Bulldogs 89 Brainbusters 89 Rougeau Brothers 89 Rockers 89 Demolition 90 Hart Foundation 92 Money Inc 93 Steiner Brothers 00 Edge & Christian 00 Hardy Boyz Pre-85 Andre The Giant 86 King Kong Bundy 87 Honky Tonk Man 89 Rick Rude 91 Undertaker 91 Jake 92 Bret Hart 93 Bam Bam Bigelow 93 Yokozuna 93 1-2-3 Kid 93 Razor Ramon 94 Shawn Michaels 94 Owen Hart 95 Jeff Jarrett 96 Goldust 00 Jericho 01 Angle 91 Bobby Heenan

Thought I'd edit my original post to voice my opinions since so many others did. Steve Austin vs. Bret Hart, 3/23/97, WrestleMania 13, "I Quit" match - Even though I still don't think it's the best match on this list, or even top five, it obviously craps on the HHH/Rock Ladder match. Randy Savage vs. Ric Flair, 4/5/92, WrestleMania VIII, WWF Title - One of my favorite matches ever. Incredible drama and emotion. I like Bret/Bulldog IYH a lot, but Savage/Flair beats almost anything in my book. Ten Man Tag, Canadian Stampede, 7/6/97 - I don't think the ten man tag is five stars; it generally gets overrated. Tons of heat, but not a great wrestling match. But Hell In A Cell, in my opinion, doesn't even belong on this list. It's a great spectacale but it's all about the two big bumps. Meanwhile the tag match had sustained heat for 30 minutes and they did it without relying on insane falls and a new gimmick. So while I think it's overrated as a match, I've got to go Canadian Stampede. Bret Hart vs. Roddy Piper, 4/5/92, WrestleMania VIII, IC Title - Another one of my favorites. Told such a great story and used so little to make so much. It's true that 92 is the best Rumble ever, but to me a Rumble is a Rumble. Once you know the winner and the general order the participants come out, a lot of the drama disappears because the match itself is mostly people standing around grappling on the ropes until the next major booking period comes. Even though I love the 92 Rumble I'll take an incredible story in a 1 on 1 match over that any day. Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart, 3/20/94, WrestleMania X - Great TV tag match, but Bret/Owen is one of my favorite matches ever. Owen Hart vs. Davey Boy Smith, 3/1/97, Monday Night RAW, European Title Tournament Final - I was torn on this one. The Summerslam match is great. But to be honest in this case neither match has much historical significance, neither was a major main event, and in cases like that I'm inclined to go with the straight up wrestling match over the gimmick. Still, this was pretty much a toss up. Randy Savage vs. Ultimate Warrior, 3/24/91, WrestleMania VII, Retirement match - There's nothing new to say about this match. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't see how anyone in their right mind could go with Rock/Foley over this. That's another match that I'm surprised is even on the list. Bret Hart vs. Curt Hennig, 6/13/93, King of the Ring, KOTR Tournament Semifinals - Another toss up. That Steiners match is gold and gets extra points for really being the best and most famous match where Bret and Owen ever tagged together. Still, I've got to go with KOTR here. Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels, 11/25/92, Survivor Series, WWF Title - I watched both of these somewhat recently and neither held up quite as good as I remember. Still, I love the storyline of SS 92, with both guys recently becoming champions and finding themselves in the main event after six months of feuding as midcarders. And the finish, while repeated many times later, was really innovative and cool at the time. Because the IC Title wasn't on the line, there was so much uncertainty over the WWF Title, Flair had made it acceptable for heels to win main events, Shawn had beaten Bulldog who had just beaten Bret, and the time of the year (heels usually take the belt around this time to set up Wrestlemania) it seemed very possible that Shawn could have won. Meanwhile, there wasn't as much drama at Mind Games. Foley had no shot. And the schmoz ending, while appropriate, was unsatsifying. Both great matches, but I've got to go with Bret/Shawn here. Shawn Michaels vs. Bret Hart, 3/31/96, WrestleMania XII, Iron Man match for WWF Title - It's very fitting these two matches oppose each other. Austin/Dude has got to be one of the more overrated matches of the decade, and the Iron Man has to be the most underrated high-profile match of the decade. The way these two matches are perceived on the internet is outrageous. I feel very strongly about this. Bret Hart vs. Davey Boy Smith, 8/29/92, SummerSlam, IC Title - This is a no-brainer. Bret/Bulldog is a classic and the other one is not. Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon, 3/20/94, WrestleMania X, Ladder Match for IC Title - I like the Bret/Diesel match a lot, but I can't vote against this one. Maybe the stunts are more outrageous these days, but anyone who was watching WM X live knows they were witnessing something special at the time. Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels, 10/5/97, Badd Blood, Hell in a Cell - Two gimmick matches to choose from. I really like how the Hardyz match came out of nowhere and really put all four guys on the map, but with the TLCs that followed, it's ultimately a forgettable match. I'm not in love with the HIAC, but it is a great match and still the only real elite HIAC match to date, unless I'm forgetting an obvious one. Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart, 8/29/94, SummerSlam, Cage Match for WWF Title - Tough choice. I've always loved the SS 91 match. As for Bret/Owen, it's my favorite storyline ever, my favorite cage match ever, and the way it was booked on the card (not last, Bret had a fever, etc.) made it feel like Owen had a legit shot at going over. Tons of drama. Great match. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin, 11/17/96, Survivor Series - I love the Action Zone match and haven't been able to find a video online. I'd love to see it again. It's been forever. I have to go with SS 96 though. Just a great wrestling match all the way through, and I personally prefer the action to that of WM 13. Shawn Michaels vs. Jeff Jarrett, 7/23/95, In Your House #2, IC Title - I've always thought the Diesel match was tremendously overrated (his RR 95 and SS 95 matches with Bret were both better) and people just liked it because it was different. Though I do love the use of the peg leg. Shawn/Jarrett, meanwhile, is five stars all the way in my book. Just a classic throwback type match. Lots of southern psychology and mind games and unbelievably quick action between two of the greatest IC Champs ever. Watching live at the time, I was the only one of my friends that was a Jarrett fan, so I got to play the Bobby Heenan role the whole match. Good times.

Oh, I definitely agree, Lushus. I'm not really big on star ratings anymore but back when I was, I probably would have considered the following five stars: Savage/Steamboat, WM 3 Bret/Bulldog, SS 92 Bret/Owen, WM 10 Shawn/Jarrett, IYH Bret/Shawn, WM 12 And that's probably about it. Although I had a few others that were close. This whole five-star debate just got me thinking. Off the top of my head, here are the WWF/E matches that I've seen praised as being five stars over the years: Savage/Steamboat, WM 3 Warrior/Savage, WM 7 Royal Rumble 1992 Flair/Savage, WM 8 Bret/Bulldog, SS 92 Bret/Perfect, KOTR 93 Shawn/Marty, Raw 93 Bret/Owen, WM 10 Razor/Shawn, WM 10 Bret/Owen, SS 94 Shawn/Jarrett, IYH Razor/Shawn, SS 95 Bret/Shawn, WM 12 Shawn/Mankind, Mind Games Bret/Austin, SS 96 Bret/Austin, WM 13 Team Harts/Team Austin, Canadian Stampede Bulldog/Owen, Raw 97 Austin & Michaels/Bulldog & Owen, Raw 97 Taker/Shawn, Badd Blood Taker/Foley, KOTR 98 Benoit/Regal, Pilllman Tribute (I guess this wasn't technically a WWF match, or was it?) Foley/HHH, RR 00 Foley/HHH, No Way Out Rock/HHH, Judgment Day TLC I, SS 00 Benoit & Jericho/Austin & HHH, Raw 01 Benoit/Austin, Smackdown 01 TLC II, WM X7 Rock/Austin, WM X7 Austin/Angle, SS 01 Benoit/Angle, RR 03 Eddie/Brock, No Way Out Benoit/HHH/Shawn, Wrestlemania XX Taker/Angle, No Way Out That's 35 matches without even really thinking about it and I'm sure there are a ton of TV matches and more recent PPV matches ('02-current) that I'm forgetting. I'm not saying the general consensus is that they're all five stars, but at one time or another I've seen a considerable group of people agree that they're five stars without a ton of negative arguments going the other way. Personally, I'd only even consider putting 10-12 of those matches that high, but that's just me.

Ah, I didn't even realize you were brand new here. Welcome. I don't really post very often- only when something grabs my attention. I guess we've said all we can on the WM 13 issue but I've got to add that I agree with what you mentioned about Bret's work in '95. Even though he got shafted booking-wise, he definitley made the most of it in the ring. The LaFitte match in particular is really underrated. Also, I haven't seen the Bret/Austin In Your House match in forever, but I watched it on tape again on tape maybe 5 or 6 years ago I remember thinking that it was really, really good. Not as good as SS 96 or WM 13 but still a forgotten gem. Lushus, thanks for your five-star list. I'm surprised that a lot of people only seem to consider 3-5 matches as five stars. I know it devalues the rankings to list everything under the sun as five stars, but I always assumed most people thought there were more than that. That's probably because over the years I've seen so many different matches (probably 25-40 of them) considered five stars on the internet (by multiple people).

I respect your opinion too and I definitely agree with you that Bret was consistently great throughout his career and may not have had a clear peak as far as being a quality worker. The rankings I listed reflect which years I enjoyed from him the most. It wasn't an issue of Bret's ability during those times as much as it was an issue of the situations he was put in, the feuds he had, how he was booked, etc. For instance, I think most would agree that Bret wasn't booked very well during 1995. He was still just as good of a worker as he had been for years, but in '95 he wasn't put into many interesting new storylines (Lawler, Yankem, LaFitte, etc.) and took a backseat to the likes of Nash, Michaels, Sid, etc. in the main events. So that's why I ranked 1995 so lowly on the list. In that regard, like I said, to me the whole Hart Family saga of 1993 and 1994 were superior to the Bret/Austin feud of 1997 as a whole. That's not to say Bret/Austin wasn't a great match because it took place in 1997; the only reason I gave those rankings in the first place was just to emphasize my opinion that the earlier part of Bret's career was his peak storyline-wise. I think part of the reason the WM 13 match gets as much praise as it does is because it's the defining match in what many people on the internet consider to be the defining part of Bret's (and Austin's) career. The thing is, I don't think it was the defining part of Bret's career. Regarding the match itself, I didn't say their brawling was lazy and unnecessary. I said it was the pre-cursor to the lazy unnecessary brawling that copycats implemented into nearly every single main event over the next two to three years. You say the match is flawless and completely different. Maybe it's just the perfectionist in me, but I don't see how you can definitively say it's flawless. And the fact that it's different makes it unique, not perfect. As far as crowd heat goes, sure, they were into it, but I can think of plenty of other matches that had more heat. And I've admitted the finish was perfect for the storyline, but it didn't exactly lend itself to a huge reaction from the live crowd. Austin passing out made for a great visual on-camera but it's an anti-climactic finish for the live crowd. A dramatic or sudden three-count is something eveyone at home and in the arena can go crazy for. Like I said, that's no fault of Bret or Austin, but it's an inherent factor in I Quit matches to begin with. You're right that the match accomplished everything it set out to do, but just because it accomplished its goal isn't enough to automatically make it the best ever. As far as my preferences being different than what's "best", well, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If "what's best" wasn't subjective, then there wouldn't be any reason for this thread in the first place because we'd all already know what the best ten matches of the 90's were. Who decides what's best? What's generally accepted as "the best" is based on the preferences of the majority. So personal preferences always play a part in such a subjective issue. Again, I really do like the WM 13 match. I can just think of others that I think are better. Just out of curiosity, what are the other two WWF/E matches that you consider to be five stars? PS- I agree with your other post about the '92 Rumble. Also, the fact that the World Title was on the line and there were so many legitimate contenders (Hogan, Taker, Flair, Savage, Sid, Piper, etc.). And the fact that a heel went over, a number as high as #3 went over, AND the fact that a guy had been around for less than six months and wasn't over 300 pounds went over were all huge milestones. There was really no precedent for any of that. I think 1990 was a great Rumble too, probably the second best of the '90s, but I still prefer '92.

I just realized I'm the only one that excluded Austin/Hart at Wrestlemania 13 from my list. Don't get me wrong- I like that match but it just doesn't crack my top ten. I know it ranks #1 with a lot of people, and I wouldn't criticize that. I fully understand the historical significance, the double turn, how much it helped Austin, how it was the unofficial birth of the Attitude era, the fact that it stood out on a craptacular card, that it was a defining moment in the Bret/Austin feud, Bret's truly last epic match, etc. I'm just wondering if I'm literally the only one who wouldn't put it in their top ten. Maybe some of this comes from the fact that I don't seem to like 1997 quite as much as other people around here. I hate WM 13 as an event; it was the first Wrestlemania (and maybe the only Wrestlemania) that didn't feel like a Wrestlemania at all. You can say all you want about WM 11 and 12, but they still felt like major events. WM 13 might as well have been an In Your House. '97 is held in very high regard around these parts, and I agree that a lot of great moments came from that time. But it was also the beginning of the end for Bret, the start of his whiny character, and the descent into the Attitude era. I know that time period was very successful, but I always hated what happened to the in-ring product after Bret left and Michaels got hurt. Maybe it's just the nostalgia in me because it's when I first seriously got into wrestling, but I prefer the '92-'94ish era instead. It just seems like most people consider the Bret/Austin feud and the re-uniting of the Hart Foundation to be the apex of Bret's career, when to me it'll always be the Hart family saga, mainly the Owen feud. If I was ranking Bret's years in singles competition in terms of my favorite, I'd go with 94, 92, 93, 97, 96, 95, 91. So to me, 97 wasn't his peak; it was somewhere in the middle. By the way, this is coming from the biggest Bret mark around. I just prefer the types of matches he had against guys like Owen, Bulldog, and Perfect to the brawling style of match he had with Austin. I feel parts of the WM 13 match didn't age very well with time. Like the whole brawling into the crowd part. If ever a feud warranted such intensity it's certainly this one, but every time I watch it I just can't shake the image of the lazy brawling into the crowd and down the aisle that followed in every WWF main event from 1998 and 1999, not to mention all the hardcore matches. That's no fault of Bret or Austin; it just doesn't do much for me at this point. Shamrock as the ref always felt out of place to me too. I didn't like that he was there- he really had no reason to be and it felt like a completely unnecessary and extraneous element. I guess I'm also not really a fan of "I Quit" matches to begin with. The finish for this match was perfect for the storyline and I wouldn't change it at all, but to me Austin passing out will never be as dramatic as a legitimate submission or a quick three-count. I'd never call that finish a copout because within the context of the match and storyline it made perfect sense, but as far as making for an exciting finish on its own, I felt like it was a little anti-climactic. There weren't really many good false finishes leading up to it either, which is a direct product of that type of match. It's much harder to work false finishes into a submission match; no matter what you do it'll never be as exciting as a Savage/Steamboat type exchange of near falls. I guess I prefer endings like the pinning combinations that occured in Bret's matches with Owen and Bulldog, and the Wrestlemania VIII/Survivor Series '96 finish. As far as the famous Bret singles matches go, (which is to say not counting any original Hart Foundation stuff, or the ten man tag at Canadian Stampede, or television matches against the likes of Flair or the Kid, or tag matches like Bret & Owen vs. The Steiners or Quebecers, etc.) I prefer both Perfect matches, both Bulldog matches, both Owen matches, the Piper match, the Michaels Iron Man, and the Survivor Series match with Austin. Then I'd go with WM 13. Which means that Bret/Austin at WM 13 just barely cracks my top ten Bret matches of the '90s. Again, I'm really not trying to bash the match even though it's probably coming off that way. I'm just trying to provide a different perspective to it. When it comes down to it, I think it's a good match with a great storyline, whereas, in my opinion, the other Bret matches I listed were simply great matches, with good to great storylines. The WM 13 match is very good. It's just not my favorite. I'm not going to bash anyone that has it as their #1. I'm just wondering if there's anyone else that feels the same as I do or can at least understand where I'm coming from.

My nominees: Savage/Warrior (WM 7) Bret/Piper (WM 8) Flair/Savage (WM 8) Bret/Bulldog (Summerslam 92) Bret/Perfect (93 King of the Ring) Bret/Owen (WM 10) Bret/Owen (Summerslam 94) Shawn/Jarrett (In Your House, July 95) Bret/Shawn (WM 12) Bret/Austin (Survivor Series 96)

Is it possible to split up an MP3 into two separate tracks? For example, say the last song on a CD has a hidden track at the end of it, so there's 10 minutes of silence in between the last song and the hidden song, but they're both included on one long 20 minute track. Is there a way, on iTunes (or otherwise) that I can make a shorter MP3 and cut the 20 minute track off after the 5 minute mark so that I can just put the first song on a mix CD without wasting 20 minutes of CD space? Thanks for any help.

This is more of a comment which doesn't warrant a thread, but I didn't see that type of thread in this folder, so I guess I can turn this into a question. I was watching Bret Hart's first IC Title win against Mr. Perfect and I was thinking about how Perfect left active competition for over a year afterwards due to a back injury. I know the plan was to get the IC Title on to Bret all along, so he didn't exactly luck into getting the gold just because there was no choice other than for Perfect to drop it. But still, the fact is, in hindsight, Bret had to win that match because Perfect was going away for awhile. That got me thinking about Bret's other first Title wins... Tag Titles: The Hart Foundation beat the British Bulldogs in a short match in which the Dynamite Kid was basically unable to compete due to a severe injury. Again, I believe the Harts would have eventually won the Titles, but with Dynamite's injury the change had to be made immediately. Dynamite tried to come back from the injury way too quickly and the Bulldogs stuck around in a diminished role for over a year, but there was no way the WWF was ever going to put the belts back on them given Dynamite's fragile condition. WWF Title: This one Bret did kind of luck into at first. Ric Flair had an inner-ear problem, couldn't wrestle for the next six weeks, and needed to drop the Title. Bret became the guy. Three months later, Flair was out of the WWF anyway, and would have had to have dropped the Title sometime soon. Basically, the observation I'm getting at is that all of Bret's first Title wins coincided with his championship opponents dealing with extenuating circumstances (injuries). So then, I started to think of all of Bret's second reigns... Tag Titles: The Hart Foundation defeated Demolition to regain the Tag Team Titles. This clearly marked the beginning of Demolition's fall from the top. Ax, half of the original team was gone within several months due to health problems, and the heel Smash & Crush version of the team was a shell of the former team. Within a year the team was broken up and both guys were repackaged. With Ax on the outs, and the lack of willingness to push Smash and Crush as a bogus version of the team, there was no choice but to have Demolition drop the belts at this point. IC Title: Bret defeated Piper to regain the IC Title, which he arguably never should have lost in the first place. Piper only really got the belt in the first place to job it back to Bret, but still, Piper stopped actively competing immediately after the match and wouldn't be seen again for the better part of two years. WWF Title: Bret defeated Yokozuna to regain the WWF Title. Within a couple months, Yokozuna was off TV, coming back for only one PPV match in the next year. So once again, Bret's opponent ended up taking time off... so it only made sense for him to drop the belt... to Bret. So, to turn this into a question now: 1) How much did Bret's Title wins have to do with him being in the right place at the right time? 2) Can you think of any other decorated superstar that went through similar situations, where his opponents left the company shortly after many, if not all, of his multiple championship victories?

Thanks for posting that. Good read. Does anyone have links to any other interviews like this? Amazing quote when imagined in Hall's voice: "So we all hugged, and then he (Shawn Michaels) bent down and kissed Kev(in Nash) on the lips. That was a little bit gay."

I was actually going to make note of that as well. Definitely my favorite episode. At the end when JD says, "...Where do you think we are?" and Cox turns around and Ben has suddenly disappeared... that gets me every time. The way they weave in the stories with Jack's birthday party and the old man that viewers are led to believe has died is brilliant. Not to mention the subtle hints they throw in, like how Ben never has his camera after Cox returns to the hospital. The episode works on both the first viewing and holds up perfectly on repeat viewings even when you know about the big plot twist. Great stuff. Had I not limited myself to ten, I also would have thrown in My Fifteen Minutes, My Jiggly Ball, My Tormented Mentor, My TCW (didn't like the main plot here at first but all the other little things that go on in this episode are hilarious), etc.