King Kamala

Not particularly fond of Leena myself and may very well leave the board after this thing is done but by golly I can't abandon my draft, I'm only halfway through. I just hope more people don't leave. We've come too far!

Destruction of public property edging out petty theft.

Yeah...I'm sure they're not terrible but seriously, how hard is it to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich?

I'm not certain if KKC wanted both announcers, but he can likely swap out a pick when he returns if he desires. Yeah, I wanted both guys as a tandem. They'll be commentating team. I think they'd complement each other well. My mindset on picking two announcers was I've already got seven really solid matches (Andre-Lesnar, Luger-Batista, DDP-Jarrett, Londrick-Haybusa and Hakushi, Tiger Mask-Chavo Guerrero Jr, Nakano-Blayze, Blackwell-Kamala) so everybody I pick from here on out will likely mid-card fodder so why not pick up some first rate announcers while they're still on the board? Yeah, I know they're not neccessary but damn it, I want them anyways!

Alright, it's time for Part Four of our six part series chronicling the history of WrestleMania. This week, we had our longest roundtable yet but before we get started...let's introduce the team of experts. Smues: TSM's favorite Alaskan. King Kamala Classic: The guy posting this thread. 909: Runner up for '07 TSM Poster of the Year Ed Wood Caulfield: Runner up for TSM's I Want To Be A WrestleMania roundtable panelist contest. Hunter's Torn Quad: Our esteemed wrestling history expert. Before we begin with the WrestleMania talk, we talked about Chris Benoit and whether or not, the murder/suicide affected our enjoyment of these shows. Smues: I was thinking maybe we should talk about Benoit before we get started. Because these enter the benoit era, and people's opinions may be different solely for the psycho benoit reason. 909: I've watched like, one Benoit match since the whole thing happened.I wasn't bothered. Hunter’s Ton Ruqad It's weird watching Benoit now but nothing major. Just strange watching a match involving someone who killed his wife and kid Smues: That out of the way, I think I'm in the minority, but I can seperate CHRIS BENOIT the wrestler from Chris Benoit the murderer. Maybe I'm just a sick individual, but I can still watch his matches with the same enjoyment I could before it. I'm still on the edge of my seat for the IC matches with Jericho, and Ed Wood Caulfield: haven't watched a full Benoit match since his death. King Kamala Classic: I can watch Benoit matches and I have on occasion but I did kind of subconsciously avoid them for a while. Smues: I still scream TAP OUT YOU FUCKING SON OF A BITCH at the screen when he's got HHH in the crossface. So for me personally it didn't affect watching these old shows. And let me say yes what he did was awful, and I'm not forgiving him for it, or getting into the argument about his state of mind here or anything. I just can seperate that, and it doesn't ruin his past works for me. If they ever showed old games with OJ Simpson, I'm sure I'd enjoy those too. 909: So if I can watch that one and not be bothered, I can watch just about anything and not be bothered. I'm a completist, and believe that WWE should get back to airing his matches on 24/7.I also believe that they never will get back to airing his matches. King Kamala Classic:You can't just pretend he didn't exist forever. I think they'll end the nonsense eventually. Smues: I hope so. Hunter’s Torn Quad In time Smues: So with all that said my opinions of WM16-20 have not been affected one bit by the Benoit killings. King Kamala Classic: It does taint the enjoyment of the end of WrestleMania XX a tad though Ed Wood Caulfield The ending of WrestleMania XX just isn't the same anymore. Smues: It is for me, but I have an irrational hate of HHH. Hunter’s Torn Quad I watched the end to XX a few days ago. A little weird but nothing serious WrestleMania 2000 Smues: Ok WMXVI. First: everything but the main event. Take out the main and it's a fairly good/enjoyable show. The crowd was fairly hot, which helps thing. You've got two good/great matches in the undercard in the Eurocontinental match, and the ladder match. and the ladder match for all intents and purposes is TLC1, as it set the template for the future matches, and while the future ones were better, this was still great and at the time was the most HOLY SHIT moments in one match I'd ever seen. No awful matches, and the stinkers were either short (women's match) or at least heated the crowd up (Godfather's tag match.) And man Bull Buchanan, there's a guy who is easy to forget he exists. The only real complaint with the undercard (and this applies to the main as well) is that outside of the TWO minute women's match, EVERY match is more than a singles match. Tag matches, a three way, and a four way. that bugged me then and bugged me now. Otherwise though the undercard is just fine, and will make you laugh when JR hypes the XFL. Now, the main event: I'm going to embarass myself here, but so be it. The one constant in the WWF before this show: the face beats the heel at Wrestlemania. Yes there's WM9, but in the end a face walked out the champ. This changed that, and in doing so it killed the mark in me for life. Sure I was still a big fan afterwards, but it was never the same. Before this show I never missed a minute of WWF TV I could watch. I had an emotional investment like that of a rabid sports fan. Yes I knew it was scripted, and I was heavy into reading the internet goings on, but I CARED about the product. Deeply. And gave them lots of my money. That all changed after this. I had already been irrationally hating HHH since the summer of 99, so it didn't help that he had to be the one. But there was just NO excuse for HHH to walk out the champ. 100 years of wrestling history says the good guy wins this. After months of the McMahon/Helmsley era polluting WWF TV this is where the Rock is supposed to take out the bad guy and everyone is happy. The match that happened at Backlash should have happened here. It also doesn't help that the match is like 40 minutes and boring. I could go on for pages about this, but I'd just be repeating myself. Fuck you HHH, you killed the mark in me. King Kamala Classic I like this show but I can see why it's gotten such a bad rap in circles. It had the misfortune of being a pretty good show right in the center of a line of really good shows and it had kind of a lousy finish. Correct me if I'm wrong but this was the first time a heel had retained a World title at WrestleMania. Sort of left a sour taste in everybody's mouth. I think no one would have blinked twice if they had ended No Mercy or Backlash or any non-major PPV but like Smues said---the face is expected to overcome the odds at Mania, maybe it's stupid and markish but I think it holds true. That being said, the match itself is pretty good, not one of the better main events and again, doesn't really compare to some other WWF main events of the era but a solid ***-***1/2 affair. The undercard is entertaining with The Eurocontinental title and TLC 1 being the obvious highlights.While the proliferation of non-singles matches is annoying as hell, it's kind of understandable. They were trying to get every major guy on the roster a WrestleMania paycheck so I can't get too mad at it. It wasn't mentioned in the roundtable last week but I got a kick out of Pete Rose's appearances at 'Mania. Perhaps my second favorite celebrity appearance behind Uecker. Though...I'm not going to go argue for Pete getting in the WWE Hall of Fame! Yeah, fun card. Maybe one of the more underrated 'Manias but it's really hard to look past the ending. Ed Wood Caulfield This isn't really one of my favourite WrestleManias. I wasn't a huge fan of it at the time, and 9 years later, I STILL am not a huge fan of it. The opening tag was lame. The only good thing about T&A vs. Headcheese was Trish's outfit (okay, Chester McCheese was kinda funny). I liked the Hardcore match at the time, but it's aged horribly. The Triangle Ladder Match was great though. I loved it then and I still love it now, but it's not the best match those three tag teams had. The Eurocontinental Match is all right. I liked Too Cool/Chyna vs. Radicalz because I was a Too Cool mark at the time and Eddie was awesome trying to get Chyna. X-Pac/Road Dogg vs. Rikishi/Kane was just an excuse to get Pete Rose on the show, but I still enjoyed his yearly appearance and the Stinkface made me laugh when I first saw it. But the main event. Ugh. What a downer. Triple H winning was most definitely NOT the way to end the show. They tried to make up for it by having Rock give Stephanie the Rock Bottom and People's Elbow, but it wasn't enough. I know it's been said before, but the Backlash match should have happened at WrestleMania 2000. Everything had been building up to The Rock getting the WWF Title back after a year, but instead we got the the second McMahon family reunion in less than a year. I was super pissed watching it live. And I was even more piss when I was unable to see Backlash a few weeks later. I didn't actually get to see the Backlash match until last year actually. The theme song was pretty catchy that year though. 909: The Eurocontinental match was great for two reasons. One, it had those three in it, and it was the best way to get those belts off of Angle. Two, because it elevated a belt which otherwise stayed much lower on the card.I actually have a strong dislike for this show It isn't very good. The aforementioned Eurocontinental match and the TLC match are the only two good matches here. And those are two really good matches. However, those two matches do not compare to two matches on other shows which are solely held up by two matches. The two shows which succeeded this one are so much better. There is no comparison at all. The main event sucks. It bastardizes Foley's "retirement" just one month prior. And for that? It's shit. Hunter’s Torn Quad I did not like WM2000. Bossman/BUll vs. Godfather/D-Lo was below average. The Hardcore Clusterfuck would have been better with a shorter time limit, as most matches like it tend to be. T&A vs. Head Cheese was horrid. The three-way ladder match was a great stuntfest but, unlike later bouts, there was nothing at all between the big spots. Not a thing. The women's nightmare was an abortion that, thankfully, was kept short. The six-man was fine enough. The Benoit/Angle/Jericho match was acceptable but a huge disappointment considering who you had involved. Rikishi/Kane vs. DX was fine and I got a kick out of the Pete Rose cameo. The main event should have been just Rock vs. Triple H. They probably would have torn the house down. As it is, we got a far too long schmoz complete with the first ever heel win in the WM main event. As predictable as some might call it, I think the story of the WM main event should be the heroic babyface finally making it to the top of the mountain or finally vanquishing his foe. Not to mention it was just too much in the attempt to push Triple H to the top. Yes, we get it, you want him to be a main event player, but the main event win at Wrestlemania? Overkill. A decided thumbs down to this one. King Kamala Classic: I don't know...it's easy to see why this show gets a bad rap but personally I think it's pretty good. Not as good as the two shows preceded it or the two that succeeded it. I think it's good but maybe not WrestleMania good. My perspective also might be aided by the fact that I didn't see the show until like two years or so later and thus had lowered expectations for it. Smues: As to the point about getting everybody on the card, they should have just put more people in the hardcore match. Well, and HHH being the one to pin Foley. NO reason it couldn't be the Rock.But that ending, I couldn't even watch the rest of the show again until years later. Ed Wood Caulfield: I would have also accepted Mick Foley. Hunter’s Torn Quad Watching yet another Triple H pinfall on Foley was too much It was too obvious they were shoving him down our throats 909: Foley shouldn't have even been involved. Smues: I actually went outside and took a long walk after that main event. I think I missed the rocks 'revenge' when it was live because I had left. I just couldn't believe it 909: I have no problem with HHH winning the match, or being pushed as he was. He was really fucking good. Ed Wood Caulfield: I remember the fans throwing garbage into the ring after HHH got the pin. Smues: Yeah, I forgot to mention that. King Kamala Classic: yeah, I wouldn't have had a problem with the finish if it were a nothing PPV but that shit doesn't fly at 'Mania Ed Wood Caulfield: It's rare that that happens at a WWF/WWE show. Smues: the ring was COVERED in garbage, something you never saw on WWF shows. (wcw oh yes) WrestleMania X-7 Smues: First something I meant to mention when we talked about 16 but it applies here. The last few Wrestlemanias before the WWE switched were just plastered in WWF logos, and as a result the post lawsuit DVDs are blurred to all hell, and it's a pain in the ass to watch as wrestlers will get blurred when they run into the logos. On the bad ones I don't care (see WM2000) but on the good ones, it's annoying. and WMX-7 is the best wrestling PPV I've ever seen. No I haven't seen Bash 89, but I doubt I'd like it more than this. I spent like $50 to buy a used copy of the pre WWE release just so I could have it in all it's glory. Everyone from the top to the bottom of the card put on their working boots, and I don't think there is one stinker on the show. Matches that normally might have sucked were watchable and matches that would have been decent were great. The crowd was hot, and the massive stadium helped with the atmosphere I think. This sucker is just loaded with historic matches and angles. You want technical wrestling? Benoit and Angle put on a fucking clinic that's only marred by the abrupt finish. You want spotfest? TLC2 will IMO never be topped. I said the match at WM16 was the most HOLY SHIT moments I'd seen in one match, well the one here had even more, and better flow. And Edge spearing somebody hanging FROM the title belts. Just awesome. You want angles? Vince vs Shane was overbooked city but it was done perfectly. The crowd reaction when Linda stands up and kicks Vince in the balls is something to behold. And the shane terminator is nice too. You want a power brawl? HHH vs Undertaker delivers in that department, as they just beat the shit out of each for our enjoyment. Watching it live I was 110% sure HHH was endind the streak thanks to what happened the prior year, and when he sledgehammered Taker I would have bet my life that was the finish. One of my few true mark out moments post WM16 was Undertaker winning that match. And there's all that awesome without even getting to the main event, which was just a buffet of awesome. Yeah the turn at the end was lame, but the crowd at least enjoyed it, and it wasn't enough to ruin an amazing match. This show is pretty much the end of the Attitude era, but man they could not have gone out on a better note. Just fantastic.\ King Kamala Classic: This is my all time favorite 'Mania and one of my all time favorite PPVs. As I said at the end of last week's show, this was the show that recaptured the aura and spectacle of WrestleMania that had really been missing since X and I honestly think they've maintained that aspect ever since. Sure, a couple have been a bit less than stellar wrestling wise (coughX-8cough) but they've all at least looked and felt like huge events. I also love that it's got sort of an old school WrestleMania feel to it with everybody of importance getting their time in the spotlight. The difference between this and the old school Manias is that everything is watchable and most everything is good to great. As Smues said, everybody from top to bottom put on their working boots. There's something for everybody. Goofy comedy wrestling, you got it. Technical, spotfest, overbooked brawls, yep. There's nothing here that doesn't work. Everything serves its purpose. I'm having a hard time thinking of a better constructed card (like Smues---I haven't had the privlage of seeing GAB '89). It's virtually impossible to come up with a match of the night for this show. TLC, Benoit/Angle, The Undertaker/Triple H, and the main event are all flat out awesome. How many other shows have four ****+ matches? Can't think of any off the top of my head. And the match that started the wave of '80s WWF nostalgia...The Gimmick Battle Royal! Yeah, this show is great. Hard to add anything that hasn't been said. Ed Wood Caulfield: Best. Pay-Per-View. Ever. Seriously, this is not only the best WrestleMania ever, but the best pay-per-view in the history of professional wrestling. I LOVED every minute of it, and I still do. The over-the-top cinematic introduction with Classy Freddy Blassie doing the narration is one of the top 3 best WM intros. Jericho/Regal is a good, not great, match to start things off with. The six-man tag is decent. Eddie/Test was another good one, although the only part I really remember is when Test got his foot stuck in the ropes. Angle/Benoit was great but I haven't watched it in years. Shane/Vince is the 2nd best McMahon match ever (the first being Angle/Shane from KOTR 2001). I marked the fuck out when Linda dramatically stood up, and even though you can clearly see Vince spread his legs out a little bit so that Linda can kick him in the groin, it's still a great moment. Shane's Van Terminator was just the icing on the cake. The Gimmick Battle Royal was a nice piece of nostalgia, and it was great to see Bobby "The Brain" Heenan back in the WWF. I still love Heenan's line about The Iron Sheik "By the time he gets to the ring it will be WrestleMania 36!"TLC II was aces. Still a spectacular match. HHH/Taker was an awesome power match. Triple H's entrance was classic. And the main event is still the best main event in WrestleMania history. The video package still sends chills down my spine. "My Way" fit so perfectly. It's still the best thing Limp Bizkit has ever done. The main event was the definition of epic. The two biggest stars of the WWF duking it out for the WWF Championship in front of 67,000-plus fans in the Houston Astrodome. It didn't get any bigger than that. The drama, the intensity, the heat was off the charts. They told a GREAT story with Austin doing the one thing he thought that he would never do to get the one thing that meant more to him than anything else in the entire world. As you can see, I don't really mind the ending as much as other people do. It's truly the end of the Attitude Era. But what a way to go out. When it was over, I said to myself, "I just witnessed history." They've yet to top this pay-per-view. 909: This is undoubtedly the best wrestling show I have ever watched. Benoit-Angle was just great. The hardcore match was GOOD. Test vs. Eddie was good. Shane vs. Vince was really good. TLC II was the best spotfest I've ever seen. The Gimmick Battle Royal was fantastic. Trips vs. Taker was great, although by now I'm really sick of that finish. Rock vs. Austin was just one of those matches you won't forget.The ending to Rock/Austin was nonsensical filth.It doesn't ruin the match, but how stupid is it, really. There were only two down points here1. Chyna vs. Ivory 2. RTC vs. APA and Tazz. Rest is cake. Early 2001 was truly the end of stringing together a few memorable shows in a row. And the end of my excitement in the product. Hunter’s Torn Quad: Jericho/Regal was a disappointment. Tazz/APA vs. RTC was tolerable. Kane/Raven/Big Show was a really fun hardcore match with lots of fun, crazy stuff. Eddie Guerrero/Test was ropey because of the style clash, but who could forget Perry Saturn looking like a cross between Superstar Billy Graham and Buff Bagwell. Angle/Benoit was really good, and while I didn't like the finish, I can see the logic behind it. It was also a nice surprise to see the crowd react so well for the amateur-style work at the beginning. Chyna/Ivory was terrible with a finish that screamed of ego. Shane/Vince was a nice garbage brawl and when Linda stood up that crowd went ballistic. TLC I was a fantastic stuntfest and I think having Lita, Rhino and Spike interfere made it better because it allowed for action while the next big spot was getting set up. The Gimmick Battle Royal was fine for what it was and a nice way to bring the crowd down. Undertaker/Triple H was surprisingly good, and I say surprisingly because Undertaker wasn't having good matches with anyone at the time. The false finish with Triple H using the sledgehammer in mid-Last Ride was great. Austin/Rock was really good and the near falls had the crowd going bonkers. The finish didn't really harm the match, even if it didn't have the desired effect live and turned out to be a bad move for business. I'd call WM X-7 the best Wrestlemania of them all and give it two huge thumbs up with an extra thumb given for the fantastic 'My Way' video, which remains the last time a WWE hype video gave me goosebumps and the feeling that I was going to be watching something special. Smues: I had forgotten to mention the gimmick royale. I loved it. Yeah it wasnt a real match, but it wasn't about the match anyway it was all the gimmicks and letting the crowd pop and GETTING BOBBY HEENAN BEHIND THE MIC ONE LAST TIME. Just awesome all around. King Kamala Classic: As great as this show, it's kind of bittersweet. It really is the beginning of the end of an era. Smues: yeah it's the end, but you can't go out on a higher note. If you gotta die, do it in style Hunter’s Torn Quad The only problem with going out on such a high is that it made the crash that much worse King Kamala Classic: yeah, well honestly I don't think the crash was immediate. Well...it wasn't immediately noticed. I didn't realize the era was really over until we were knee deep in shit. Ed Wood Caufield: The only WrestleMania JR and Heyman did together. Smues: Oh yeah I forgot to mention Heyman in place of King. I thought having Heyman there made it a lot more enjoyable. Hunter’s Torn Quad No way it would have come across so well with Lawler King Kamala Classic: Lawler is too much of a goof even when he's trying to play it straight. Ed Wood Caulfield: The Debra part of the Austin/Rock feud was so forgettable.They didn't need her. Once they realize that Rock/Austin sold itself, it got better. Smues:: Yeah. Austin didn't need her either apparantly. Punch punch 909: if you turn Austin, shouldn't it be towards something better than a Taker/Kane feud? Hunter’s Torn Quad: They should have called an audible and turned Rock Smues: I agree with that, but they were headset on turning Austin heel and I don't know why. Because he was still insanely over as a face. 909: Yeah, but Rock was leaving and everyone would've forgotten by the time he came back. King Kamala Classic: yeah, they couldn't have turned Rock face. Maybe when he got back from filming Scorpion King but it would have been just as bad timing as an Austin heel turn. How about nobody turns heel at the end of that match if we're doing fantasy booking? Ed Wood Caulfield: How much longer would the boom have continued if the Austin heel turn hadn't happened? 909: not at all. there was nowhere else to go King Kamala Classic: Yeah, I think time was running out for the boom period regardless of what happened at the PPV. 909: Yeah, but the heel turn tried to extend that by adding something totally different. Failed. King Kamala Classic: yeah the heel turn wasn't a bad idea in theory to extend the shelf life of WWF"s popularity. I mean where else was there to go if Austin remained face? Maybe heel Angle Vs Austin, I don't know. Hunter’s Torn Quad I think they'd have probably tried pushing Big Show again King Kamala Classic: maybe have Austin fighting off the invading WCW guys? Hunter’s Torn Quad: Which is what the fans wanted, and got, even if for one night King Kamala Classic: God, can't believe we didn't mention the buyout of WCW in all this X-7 talk. I guess we're all trying to purge The Invasion from our memories! Ed Wood Caulfield: I'll never forget the crowd booing the WCW guys. Hunter’s Torn Quad Or the crowd going beyond insane when the old Stone Cold showed up to stun everyone in sight Ed Wood Caulfield: The camera didn't even get a good close-up shot of them. And the graphic just said WCW Superstars' Smues: But hey they had a luxery box! Hunter’s Torn Quad: Wasn't even worth showing them Ed Wood Caulfield: I was disappointed that no one from WCW interfered during the Shane/Vince match. WrestleMania X-8 Smues: Wrestlemania X-8: When I think of this show I don't have positive thoughts about it. I wasn't very excited for it, I wasn't very excited after i watched it, and I never really bothed to watch it when i watch the other DVDs. That said, I popped it in yesterday to discover I'd been far too negative about this show. It's not a great show by any means, but it’ss perfectly acceptable as a WWF ppv, and as a Wrestlemania it doesn't have a blowaway in ring match, but its got an epic in ring match that's worthy of the wrestlemania moniker in Rock vs Hogan. I don't think anything on the card really sucked, and Skydome was a great venue for it, I hope they go back. The switch to seemingly always doing WM in massive arenas was a good move, IMO. I just love the atmosphere and the crowd. Nothing mind blowing in the ring but some decent matches including Edge vs. Booker T, Angle vs. Kane, Undertaker /Ric Flair, and the main event. Of course I’m going to point out that HHH gets to be the first heel to walk out of WM the champ, and then he is also the one to end that streak and win the title as a face at this show, but I’ll contain my HHH bashing, I got it mostly out of my system (until we talk WM19) when we talked WM16. My real problem with the main event is that it was the title match, when most of the hype for the show was on Hogan vs. Rock. That’s your Wrestlemania moment, put it on last. I also, while not expecting Flair to end Taker’s streak, and he really shouldn’t have been the guy, didn’t care for how one sided that fued was. But my comlaints aside there is nothing horribly wrong with this wrestlemania. Outside of Rock-Hogan there's nothing to really seperate it from any non WM pay per view, but Rock-Hogan is that epic moment every WM needs so it works. and as a match it sucked, but the crowd made that match, and they played off of it perfectly. Oh and I can't talk WM18 without mentioning Scott Halls selling of the stunner. He pops up so high he takes a second one in a row. Always good for a laugh. So this is a wrestlemania I'll have to get into the regular rotation. One complaint though: WAY too much live music at this one. I lost count but I think if you include HHH getting live music (one of like 1,600 times he does at WM) I think I counted five live songs. And it's not just that Saliva and Drowning Pool suck. That's just too much live music at a Wrestling show. And only one I think was as entrance music, I'd be ok if it was all restricted to entrance music, but it wasn't. King Kamala Classic: Yeah...this show is the definition of average. A lot of matches in the **-*** range (basically everything Smues mentioned and the opener) but nothing that stands out as particularly great or horrible (well maybe the Hardcore title match and Hall-Austin sort of sucked outside Hall’s aforementioned selling of The Stunner). Oh and this was probably the peak of my disenchantment with rock radio before I finally just stopped listening so the multiple appearances by Drowning Pool and Saliva didn't really go over well with me.This one does have a great atmosphere going for it and it does have one WrestleMania classic in Rock-Hogan. As a traditionalist, I won't argue that it should have been the main event. That match very well could have really really sucked...maybe the fans wouldn't have cared regardless of quality but it was a miracle that those two were able to put on a match that was actually fairly watchable. I've always thought the World title match should go on last. Putting Jericho and Triple H together at that point was a surefire way to get a **** match but that dumbass storyline and Triple H being a crappy babyface kind of just led to that match sort of falling flat. Why the hell were Jericho and Stephanie so chummy anyways after he had spent the last two years insulting her to no end? Always bugged the hell out of me. It's a good match but nowhere near as good as it could have been. I'd put this WrestleMania directly in the middle if I were to rank them (and I think I will, once this whole roundtable thingy is said and done). The first word that comes to mind with this show is middling Ed Wood Caulfield: Words cannot describe how much I utterly loathe this period of the WWF. This show takes place smack dab during the middle of my least favourite period in WWF history (I didn't watch during 1995). I hate it. I thought it was above average back then, but I utterly despise it now. The Rock vs. Hollywood Hulk Hogan is the only match I have any use for anymore. Regal/RVD was forgettable. The Hardcore Title segments were all right. The Fatal Four Way Tag Team Title Match sucked. Undertaker/Ric Flair was decent. Austin/Hall sucked (though Hall's Stunner sell is still hilarious to this day). DDP/Christian sucked.I was at the height of my Rock fandom, so that Hogan match is one of my all-time favourites. And that main event. Ugh. Everything about that feud was just so damn terrible! Instead of something as simple as "You injured me. I'm getting payback." They went with running over a dog's leg. This was when Stephanie was at her most annoying too. The Pedigree she got wasn't satisfying at all.The Triple Threat Women's Title Match blew. I hate WrestleMania X-8. Sans Rock/Hogan, I never want to watch this show again. 2002 pretty much blew for the WWF/E. 909: First, this show is awfully boring.Without Rock/Hogan, it is on the level of WM IX. It's also the pinnacle of bad angles in the WWE. Really, it just does not get worse. You have guys fighting over a shampoo commercial. Two gay dudes in a team, but the gay dudes really aren't even gay. The dog. A superhero and his sidekick winning a belt. I could go on, but I won't. It is really bad. Hunter’s Torn Quad: RVD/Regal was enjoyable but I don't know that I'd have put this on at WM because it was never going to be that great due to the style clash. Wasn't impressed with DDP/Christian or the Hardcore match. Angle/Kane was fine but they've had far better and the botched finished didn't help. I HATED Undertaker/Flair, even if the Arn Anderson cameo was a big surprise. I'm talking negative stars. Edge/Booker T was clunky. Austin/Hall was fine but you really expect more from Austin, especially at Wrestlemania. Though, Hall did sell that second Stunner like a trooper. The four-way tag match was passable. Rock/Hogan was a fantastic and emotional spectacle but watching it the next day and without the buzz and you realize the actual match was sub-par. Jazz/Trish/Lita was your typical WWE women's match. Triple H/Jericho was fine but nobody cared. Even if the crowd weren't spent from Rock/Hogan, the build up to this had done such a spectacular number on Jericho's credibility that nobody was buying that he had a chance. I'd give this a thumbs up live, due to Rock/Hogan, but thumbs down if you're watching it a second time. King Kamala Classic; I don't think anybody will argue this as a great Mania but almost as bad as IX? Harsh. Smues: I wouldnt rank this near IX or XV Hunter’s Torn Quad: Nor would I. But it is not far off 909: If not for Rock/Hogan, I would put it on the level of IX. It's just fucking boring King Kamala Classic: yeah, I'd rank IX, XV, IV,XIII, II, and XI worse than this off the top of my head Ed Wood Caulfield: Honestly, I'd rather watch IX then this. 909: No thanks. King Kamala Classic: No, I'd rather get all of my finger and toe nails plucked out than watch IX or XV again. The rest, I could probably tolerate to some extent. Smues: Hogan vs HHH the next month? WTF were they thinking. King Kamala Classic: Hogan Vs Taker was even worse 909: they rode the wave into the ground WrestleMania XIX Smues: WM19 was a five hour drive from where I was living, so a friend of mine and a bunch of his friends that I didn’t know drove over for it. We needed I think eight seats in a row so we were pretty high up, but there aren’t many bad seats at Safeco. Again I love the large stadium atmosphere, and being there live it was certainly awesome. I hadn’t been following the product very closely at that point, but I caught myself up going into this show. Again there’s nothing truly awful here (except Limb Bizcut but I’ll get to that in a moment) and a couple of really great matches. Rock/Austin 3 is not for everybody, but I was able to enjoy it for what it was, and I think I might like it more than their WM15 match. Jericho vs. Michaels was great except for I didn’t care for the end. Both the way it was executed and the fact that Michaels one, since A. he didn’t need it and b. at that point for all we knew Michaels would be back in retirement in two weeks. And the main event was some awesome stuff too, as Lesnar and Angle both brought their A game. And again, I didn’t find any matches to be truly awful or anything. Pretty much all of them outside of the Undertaker tag match were decent to good. The bad: The Undertaker handicap match was pretty brutal. As it was just resthold fest 2003. I especially like (see loathe) the part where Big Show has undertaker in an abdominal stretch, tags to Albert who put Taker in an abdominal stretch, and then the Taker escapes it and puts Albert in…an abdominal stretch. Yeee-uck. Limp Bizcut sucked of course, but at least it was only two songs, and one of which played out Undertaker’s entrance. And in fact their second song was fine because it gave everybody a chance to go get food or take a shit and not miss anything important. The Miller Lite cat fight girls thing was pointless and I can’t even say harmless because it resulted in coachman in his underwear. Vince/Hogan as a brawl was ok, but it was A. really pointless and not needed, and B. LONG LONG LONG. The people I was with and I kept looking at each other and asking ‘when the fuck is this going to end? And is there a point?" Then Piper runs out and yeah that gets the nostalgia pop, but again, pointless. Truly since it didn’t lead to Vince winning. Take this match off the card and give it’s…20 minutes to the opening crusierweight match (which had like 5 minutes and was just warming up when it ended) and to the smack down tag title match. Speaking of the cruiserweight match, Rey’s outfit is pretty awful. He looks like Daredevil. And lastly I have to talk about Booker T vs. HHH. I think everybody knows the story here, but I need to bitch anyway. It’s not just the fact that HHH as heel retained at WM again, at least it wasn’t the main event this time. It’s that the entire company treated Booker like shit this entire fued, and I don’t think I’m stretching to say it was fairly racial. All the talk about Booker’s people not being champion material, it was just pathetic. HHH treated him like a complete joke, Flair didn’t help matters, and even Lawler on the mic is like NO HIS PEOPLE WOULD DISGRACE THE BELT. And if that wasn’t all bad enough, there’s the finish. HHH gets the win with the pedigree. I timed it, from the moment it hits to when HHH attempts a cover is about 22 seconds. and yes the cover is successful, so after the pedigree hits Booker is out for over 25 seconds? He's not a referee, he's a title contender. What a farce, and I don't think it's just the HHH bias in me in this case. Thank god it wasn't the main event. But anyway really good show and a step in the right direction after WM18. And during Austin/Rock someone in our row yelled "It's ok Austin you can't beat the Rock but you can beat your wife!" which was pretty funny. King Kamala Classic: I'm not crazy about this show. I always found it odd that they shortchanged the undercard matches so badly on this show. It's a four or so show and you give the opener and the Smackdown Tag Team titles match both less than ten minutes yet you give Hogan-McMahon an absurd amount of time and give Limp Bizkit two performances and The Miller Light Catgirls (who only had like two minutes of fame) some face time. Just absurd. And the less said about Triple H-Booker the better. That match just infuritated me. That said, there is a fair share of good stuff on this show. Angle-Brock is a hell of a main event, it was great to see Austin-Rock one last time, Jericho-HBK is great.Decent Mania but with some simple booking changes it could have been a better one. And the Taker handicap match is just behind the match with Bundy at XI and the one with Giant Gonzalez at IX in terms of bad Taker Mania matches Ed Wood Caulfield: I've always thought that this was an underrated WrestleMania. 50% of the matches on the card had weak buildup, but the event as a whole delivered. We had the first (and sadly last) appearance of Matt Hardy Version 1.0 and Rey Mysterio in cool Daredevil outfit go at it. The ending was disappointing though. Rey should have gone over and the match should have lasted like 5-10 minutes longer. But I can understand wanting to save Rey's big Crusierweight Title win for his hometown. ): He even got to main event then, back when that was a rarity! The Triple Threat Tag Team Match for the WWE Tag Team Titles was decent, although by that point, the SmackDown! Six formula had been done to death. Undertaker vs. Big Show/A-Train was forgettable, but at least Limp Bizkit got to perform "Rollin'" for The Undertaker finally...two years too late. HBK/Jericho was awesome! 2nd best match on the show. I'll never forget how Shawn reacted so calm and funny when the Badd Blasters didn't work. If you wanted proof that HBK had changed, that was some proof right there. The ending made sense to me at the time, and it does so even more today, now that HBK is back full-time. This is actually the match that made Shawn want to come back full-time, so it's certainly historic too in a way. The Women's Title Match was enjoyable. Great to see Trish get her belt back again (although she lost it the next month). There is one spot in the match where Victoria stops the pin and Jazz tells her "What the hell are you doing!?" Victoria shoves her. Jazz just stands there and lets it sink in, and then lets out a primal yell and bumrushes Victoria into a corner. I never noticed that spot until I saw the match again last year, and I laughed so hard when I finally noticed it. The Miller Lite Catfight Girls segment was useless ESPECIALLY since we saw Coach in his underwear. Wow, those girls truly did have only 15 minutes of fame didn't they? Does anyone even remember them today? It was funny how the blonde Cat Fight Girl couldn't pronounce Hulk Hogan right. She kept saying "Hulk Hoagan." Why couldn't they just get the brunette to say Hogan then? Speaking of which, Hogan/Vince was a good brawl. Vince McMahon's Ladder Legdrop. Was it cool or what!? The Piper cameo was a nice surprise though it led to some awful awful crap later on. Vince's expression when he grabs the lead pipe is classic. As is he giving Hogan the bird while lying on the mat as Shane checks on him. Sadly, this all led to the Mr. America crap, which kind of taints it. The less said about HHH/Booker the better. Rock/Ausitn was great as usual. Rock was on FIRE back in 2003, and it's such a shame that he left so soon afterwards. The Hollywood entrance is still one of the Top 5 greatest entrances in professional wrestling history. I haven't seen Angle/Lesnar in years, but I remember enjoying it. The only thing I still remember about that match is the botched Shooting Star Press. All in all, this was a much better card than WrestleMania X8. It's definitely underrated for sure. 909: It was pretty good, but has brought us towards what we currently have now. Any semblance of undercard matches (read: elevating anyone) on a WrestleMania show is GONE. In any case, Angle-Brock is really good. HBK-Jericho is also very good. Austin-Rock is kinda weird. Hunter’s Torn Quad: Rey/Hardy was OK but I was expecting more, both in terms of quality and time; 5:39? WTF? Undertaker vs. A-Train/Show was fine for what it was, and how funny is that even with all that build of 'taker training Nathan Jones, they didn't trust him to so much as stand on the apron? Trish/Victoria/Jazz was better than average, thanks to Jazz and Trish. The three-way tag match was fine but wouldn't have been out of place as a TV main event. Michaels/Jericho was really good but it was totally deflating for Shawn to go over. Jericho was sticking around full-time and Shawn was already an established near-legend, so he wouldn't have lost a thing putting Jericho over for a win Jericho really needed. We can ignore the pillow fight bullshit. Triple H/Booker was pretty decent but that finish was totally uncalled for. Was it really necessary to bury Booker by waiting almost 30 seconds between hitting the pedigree and making a ONE HANDED COVER? You can defend Triple H winning but there is no way to defend that finish. No way at all. Hogan/Vince was a great storyline brawl with lots of blood and both men, especially Vince, doing more than you’d expect. Plus, the Roddy Piper cameo was a great surprise. Rock/Austin was really good, even though, to me, it came across as more a performance of spots than an actual wrestling match. Angle/Lesnar was a match I really enjoyed and don’t think it gets the praise it should. It’s mostly remembered for Brock botching the SSP, which is sad because the match was great up to that point and, had he nailed the move, I would have easily given this match the full *****. I’d give this one a moderate thumbs up. 909:You guys hit the Booker/HHH stuff right on the head. I don't know how anyone could watch a summary of that angle and say, that's not racist at all Smues: Don't forget them showing the mug shot of Booker T a hundred times too. Ed Wood Caulfield: Lawler wouldn't shut up with the racism during that match. Smues: STREET THUG STREET THUG 909: It was just disgusting. Ed Wood Caulfield: Didn't they tone down on the racism once they decided that HHH was going to win? Smues: Watching it at the arena was odd because I didn't get the racist commentary from the booth, I got it from my friends dad. I think the man stood up and clapped when HHH got the 3 count, and I had to ask my friend why his dad liked HHH so much, and his response was "because Booker T is black." Kind of creepy . 909: Well, I'm sure a lot of typical wrestling fans were happy about that one anyway. They know their audience meaning with the racism Ed Wood Caulfield: Everytime I watch Rock/Austin from WM XIX, it just makes me wish The Rock was still wrestling even more. His heel character in 2003 was just phenemonal. Smues: Rock wearing Austins jacket was great stuff. Hunter’s Torn Quad His rarely used entrance, with the helicopter footage, was great Ed Wood Caulfield: Don't forget how he adjusted it when he got up. The little touches like that were great. And Rock talking to Austin after the match was kinda sweet. At least now that I know what they were saying to each other. One more thing: Lawler talking about "WrestleMania The Movie" got really tiresome. . Smues: One note I'll make is the only problem with safeco is that even witht he roof closed it's still not sealed on the side, so a lot of light gets in during the day, and it's noticable as it gets darker throughout the show Ed Wood Caulfield: I remember SmackDown: Here Comes The Pain having Safeco Fieldhouse as an arena. You could come down a zip-line like Shawn Michaels at it. Smues: Really? that's pretty cool Ed Wood Caulfield Yep.Brock Lesnar doing the zip-line entrance is one for the ages. King Kamala Classic: I'm trying to picture Big Show doing it or KANE! The possibilities are endless Smues: Owen Hart CAW for the inapproriate win! 909: that was over the edge Smues: Sorry, I released that one too early WrestleMania XX Smues: Really great show, I think it has to rank 2nd behind WM17. That said it’s LONG and there’s a lot of filler and you could chop an hour off of this without really hurting it. But there is so much good here it’s hard to even know where to start. I expected nothing out of Rock/Foley vs. evolution, but it was the surprise of the night. Great chemistry between all involved, and Flair and Rock playing off of each other is just gold. Crowd ate it up too, and a nice last match for the Rock, who goes out of his way to make it special for Foley too. Angle vs. Eddie is a MOTY candidate and I really had no idea who was winning it until the finish. Just a classic because two greats. And I need to mention somewhere that the crowd for the whole show was pretty electric and helped make this such a fun show. Jericho vs. Christian wasn’t as good as I expected because they had 15 minutes and I expected greatness but it was still really really good. Cena vs. Big Show wasn’t very good but Cena being over at MSG is so weird to watch today. There’s even a CENA chant. And don’t forget Lesnar/Goldberg. As a match it’s beyond garbage, but the crowd makes it great, as they just shit all over both of them. And I think we get 3 full chants before they ever even touch each other. YOU SOLD OUT, NA NA HAY HAY GOOD BYE, it’s all there. It obviously affected both guys pretty badly. Well worth watching, but keep the sound up. On mute it’d be pretty awful. As for the bad, nothing stands out to me, there’s just too much filler and like I said the show was longggg. They could have cut a few matches and no one would have cared. As for the main event, it's one of the best triple threat matches you'll ever see. I really didn't care for the inclusion of HBK into the match though. Benoit won the rumble, he gets the shot. Make the non rumble winners match the 3 way. But it worked out for the best. and it gave us such a great moment at the end with Benoit getting HHH to tap (something I never expected, if Benoit was winning I expected a quick 3 on a cradle) and then the celebration and what not. The celebration, not so great to watch anymore, but I could watch that match until the end of time, ending the ending. Just stop the dvd shortly after benoit gets the belt and has his hand raised. Really great show, and it's pretty awesome they were able to put on something so awesome for the 20th anniversary show. Like I said it's behind 17, and it's not close either, but then I don't think it's close between this in 2nd place for all time wrestlemanias and whatever show is 3rd place. King Kamala Classic Yeah, I like this show a lot. It seemed like for a while, it may have replaced XX as the consensus greatest Mania of all time but I think time and The Benoit murders has pushed it back to #2. As Smues said, this show is just about an hour too long and I don't think the filler is as good as it was at X-7. That said...great, great show. Three ****+ matches, a very solid Christian/Chris Jericho match, the always entertaining Brock Vs Goldberg debacle. Everything else is kind of forgettable but that's more than enough to make this show a superb Mania and what more can be said about MSG? For my money, the greatest Mania venue of all time. Can't wait till they return there for WrestleMania XXX (Can’t wait to see Triple H go for his 22nd World title!) but yeah, it's odd but I judge WrestleMania greatness on how tolerable the filler is and this one's doesn't quite doesn't stack up as well as X-7's 909: It is way too long. But very good. Perhaps if they are going to run such long shows, they should run less, but longer matches? The Evolution vs. Rock and Sock tag is very good. main event will always be a great match, and as mentioned, I just turn it off once the bell rings and that's it. Jericho/Christian could've been better. Ed Wood Caulfield: It's not the greatest WrestleMania of all-time like the WWE wanted it to be, but it's definitely the 2nd greatest. This show was alot of fun, even before the main event. The venue was great, the crowd was fired up, I like the lighting, the set was cool (remember Kane's entrance when the city burned?). I really liked the Harlem Boys Choir's version of "America The Beautiful" and the CGI Freedom Tower at the end was a nice touch. Cena/Big Show was a decent opener, notable for giving Cena his first ever WWE belt. I still miss Cena as a rapper. The two Fatal Four Way Tag Team matches are forgettable junk. Christian/Jericho I feel could have been better, but it was still good. ***1/2 maybe. The storyline is still tremendous stuff. I was half-expecting Trish to turn heel, but I was still shocked when she slapped Jericho. Heel Trish was a great character. She managed to get even hotter too. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Rock N' Sock Connection vs. Evolution. The 2nd best match of the night, IMO. A great crowd, great atmosphere. Everything was awesome from The Rock's promo to the postmatch hug between Rock and Foley. This was truly The Rock and Ric Flair Show. Flair's People's Elbow still makes me laugh to this very day. Everyone did their roles perfectly. It sucks that Rock's last match was a lost in a Handicap Tag Team Match, but still, at least he went out on a great great match. The Playboy Evening Gown Match was forgettable fluff. Angle/Guerrero was awesome, although I haven't seen it in years, so I'm not sure if it holds up. Brock/Goldberg is an awful match, but the crowd makes it worth watching. Undertaker/Kane was as good as it could have been. I was disappointed that Undertaker didn't return to his old school look, instead opting to just grow his hair out barely and wear a new hat and leather jacket. Paul Bearer's return was a nice surprise though. Oh well. At least Taker let his hair grow out longer as the years went by. I haven't seen the main event since the day Chris Benoit died. I remember liking it, and I'll never forget literally being on the edge of my seat and yelling, "TAP!" when Benoit had Triple H in the Crippler Crossface. When HHH really did tap out, I was so relieved! I could have stopped watching professional wrestling right there and I almost did, in fact. Something always brought me back. A great ending that is now and forever tainted. I also have a soft spot for this show for personal reasons. It has nothing to do with the show itself, just things that happened in my life that happened around this time. The only things I remember from the Cruiserweight Open are Ultimo Dragon slipping twice and Billy Kidman almost killing himself with the Shooting Star Press to the outside. Oh, and Rey Mysterio's Flash costume was pretty cool. Definitely one of the better WrestleManias. I didn't mind the 5 hour running time. It flew by when I watched it. Hunter’s Torn Quad Cena/Show was a fine opener that did its job of priming the crowd. Worth going back and watching purely to see MSG pop huge for Cena and not hearing a single boo. Both four-way tag matches are totally forgettable and might as well have never happened. Jericho/Christian was a really good midcard match and the Trish turn was a nice surprise. Evolution vs. Rock/Foley was OK but there were plenty of little things that took the match down. The women’s tag was at least kept short, because it was terrible. Like the tag title matches, the Cruiserweight free-for-all was a match you can skip. Goldberg/Lesnar was actually decent stuff and would have been better as a battle of hard hitting monsters. The problem is that they were never going to get the chance, no matter what they did, because both men had the ‘gall’ to leave the company and the always petulant wrestling fans were damn sure going to let them know it. Victory/Molly was OK and it was nice to see a hair match end with an actual shaving. Angle/Guerrero was real good but not great, though I loved the finish. Undertaker/Kane was acceptable but at least it was better than their horrible effort six years earlier. Benoit/HBK/HHH was five star emotion in a match that doesn’t quite reach that level. It was really good, though, and the final scene of Eddie and Chris embracing was very touching and it really got to people. If Eddie dying put a bit of cloud over this then Benoit pulling a Benoit put an entire thunderstorm. I’d give this one a thumbs in the middle but slightly going up.

That team is surely going to give the audience "THE CLAP!" when they're in the ring.

Who's going to be around for the next twenty four hours or so? I'm going to be off and on until tomorrow morning (mostly off after this 2 P.M. or so). Want someone to PM picks to keep this train rolling just in case my pick comes up.

Well, my most notable drunken incident happened about five months ago when during a friend's birthday party in my college's "party dorm" common room. I got really shitty drunk on some awful, cheap red wine (not quite bum wine but only like a half step up) and Taaka vodka. Long story short, after setting off some fireworks on the library lawn...me and the birthday boy decide to break all of the furniture in the common room (along with a makeshift bong that was sitting out there). Now here's where my memory gets a bit foggy and I'm relying on some firsthand accounts of my jackassery for the rest of the story. Needless to say, they decide to throw us our asses out of the dorm. Shockingly, there were no further repercussions. Got to love hippies. Anyways, I somehow end up laying on the library lawn, yelling "HELP! HELP! I'M TOO DRUNK TO GET UP" and miraculously, some friends happen to be driving by and they help me back to my dorm. But not before having to wrestle the aformentioned wine bottle out of my hands. Well, I notice that they're wearing almost identical flannel shirts and I start calling them a lesbian couple and yell "LESBIANS! LESBIANS! LESBIANS!" over and over again. We make it back to my room and lo and behold, my roomie and his parents are there. I apologize to them profusely for my drunken jackassery before my R.A. steps in and wisely decides to move me to the dorm's common room for the night. Well, then long story, short, I "escaped" for a time and ended up walking around the dining hall shirtless and with no shoes and socks on, vomitting all over the place. That last part wasn't so fun...I haven't drank wine since pretty much.

Norman Smiley is a dick! Also kudos to 6foot9, Amazing Red was one of my favorites in the early days of TNA.

Montell Jordan- "This Is How We Do It" (Hope this makes it at least to the final four) Warren G (ft. Nate Dogg)- "Regulate" (A match up between this and "This Is How We Do It" would be fucking tough) Smashing Pumpkins-"1979" (Maybe my favorite iconic "alt rock" song of the decade) R.E.M.- Losing My Religion (Have never cared for "No Rain" and as Czech, the mandolin part in this is fucking great) 2Pac- "California Love" (Still haven't gotten sick of this one. Good choice to make it to The Elite 8) Dr. Dre (ft. Snoop Dogg)- "Nuthin But A G Thang" New Radicals- "You Get What You Give" (Perhaps my favorite song left in the tournament) Lisa Loeb- "Stay" (Sorry BUTT but this song is so 90s)

Uecker's antics are easily the highlight of this 'Mania. More compelling than any of the in-ring action and that's not entirely a knock on the quality of the in ring matches, Uecker really brought the funny here.

Yeah, I think the reason why Warrior's title reign was such a relative failure (I use the term relative because he did hold the title for 10 months or so) is because WWF never really seemed to fully commit to him being the guy in the promotion. As HTQ said, Hogan was still that guy even with Warrior ostensibly on top.

Too late to throw in another vote for Goldengreek. I think we should allow him one last post for potential comedic purposes then hit him with the banhammer.

Dan Spivey is a guy that was high on my best picks available list. Kudos to you for snatching him, OOG.

Well, most of us don't want to ruin our chances to get some cyber action

Ditto! Well if anything this has taught me that WWE and TNA are apparently shown in China. By god, maybe "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan's biannual appearances on RAW can convince them the errors of their evil, communist ways!

I thought we put the newbies in that larvae group where they had to have 25 posts (and hopefully get a feel of the place) before they could create threads. Did they get rid of that? Or was that just an idea floating around that never was actually enacted? Anyways, I always thought this board could use a hot Asian chick so I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for now.

I've been hinting towards this for a while so here it is. A little bit disjointed but some of the more respected denizens of The General Wrestling and 24/7 folders (and Dandy) got together twice last week in an AIM chatroom to discuss Royal Rumbles of yesteryear. On the eve of The Royal Rumble, let's take a look back. Feel free to add your own discussion...or call one of us out. [/size] First, let's introduce the panelists; King Kamala Classic: Moderator, all around swell guy. Dr. Venkman PhD: Dr. Wrestling, savior of the WWE folder Bob Barron: Former ombudsmen, part-time celebrity stalker Dandy: Former Dr. Wrestling MilleniumMan831: Some guy. Dandy: It might be good for us to discuss the format of the rumble, and what works best in our eyes. Bob Barron: feel the Rumble has to be the main event, it just feels off if it's not. 2 minute intervals are fine, though 90 seconds is fine. The match should be fast-paced, with eliminations frequent, and the ring should never fill up to much. If it does, it should only be for a big superstar to clear out the ring. The Rumble should be staggered so that big name stars are always in it to maintain interest. And there should also be a few comedy spots to break up the action MillenniumMan831: Definitely agree w/ the Rumble being the main event unless the championship match is built so well it MAY be able to close the show. Can't really think of an example of this off the top of my head. As for the format, I dig 90 seconds. 2 minutes can drag for certain spots. I enjoy it when the ring fills up and comes down to 1-2 guys in the ring in the middle of the match (sort of like an intermission 89, 92, 04 are examples of this). MillenniumMan831:And I do mark out for the old timers each year (Animal, Tatanka, Perfect, Snuka, Piper, etc.) Dandy:I agree that Rumble match should be the main event. The PPV is called "Royal Rumble" for a reason, and it is the draw of the event. The entrances definitely need to have the two minute intervals to give enough time to tell the story and not clog up the ring with rapid-fire eliminations for the entire match. The "iron man" spot has been played out a lot lately, as we have had a bunch of people win from early spots. I think the Diesel spots should be reserved for someone they want to give a new push to. I would like to see every participant announced before the match unless they have a big surprise in store. Dandy: Also, I miss the old school promos where people drew their numbers throughout the show and shenanigans ensued. Dr.Venkman PhD: Those aren't really "old school", they started doing them in 2003. I do miss the cavalcade of promos before the match though. That was more of an "arena intermission" though. King Kamala Classic: I thought they happened at the first two PPV Rumbles Bob Barron: I do remember Bastion Booger drawing his number and then revealing it, pissing Jack Tunney off Dandy: No, think back to Perfect, DiBiase, and the early 90s. That is what I am talking about. King Kamala Clasic: DiBiase buying #30 off Akeem Dr. Venkman PhD: Well, I see what you mean... I guess I'm thinking of the ACTUAL skits where so and so walks into an office and pulls from a drum. Prior to that they just had Hulk Hogan tell his good friends at Coliseum Video that he drew a good number. Anyway, I'm fine with 90 second intervals. 2 minutes is good too, but the last time they did legit 2 minute intervals, the match went on forever (2002). Part of that was the fact one of the intervals was actually over 3 minutes.That crazy HHH and his entrances. MillenniumMan831 Starting to remind me why I've only seen the 2002 Rumble once Dr. Venkman PhD: HBK Vs Undertaker was pretty good in 1998 and I don't think the Rumble should have followed a burning casket. Mark Henry vs. Kurt Angle was awful in 2006 and sadly HAD to be last due to Taker's special effects.The Diesel moment was cool in 1994 and worked for Austin in 1997 (and his crazy reaction to Bret's music was nice, though maybe a bit out of the no fear bad ass persona). It was also a big stepping stone for Rikishi in 2000. But it can't be overdone.Lastly, in terms of format, I have to give props to the 1996 Rumble. That was the year all 30 guys got music, and that's been pretty awesome ever since. King Kamala Classic: Anything less than ninety seconds is too rushed (though I think the only examples of that are '95 and the knockoff WCW did on Thunder From Down Under in '00). Two minute intervals are ideal IMHO. I'm kind of a traditionalist. As for it being the main event, I'm also sort of a traditionalist with thinking it should be the main event all the time BUT… there are are rare examples when the Rumble has a weak roster and the World title program has been built up well where I think The World Title match should get top billing. '98 is a perfect example of that. I enjoy The Diesel spot so long as it isn't overdone and I don't think it has been. I only really remember 3 or 4 instances of it happening. Dr. Venkman PhD Khali in 2007, maybe. But a bit different. They just stock piled guys until he came in. King Kamala Classic: As for the structure of a Rumble, I like it kind of in between. I don't like just one or two guys in the ring at a time through out a match but I don't like a ton of guys in the ring ideally. Bob Barron: I watched 1998 today, and it really suffers from just being too many guys the whole match. Same with 2006 King Kamala Classic: I may be in the minority but I think the "name" guys should be placed through out the match. I mean there should be more towards the end but there should be one or two at the beginning. One or two in the middle and then the rest at the end. Bob Barron: Having 4-6 guys in the ring is best, then the action just gets too much and it's guys lying on the ropes King Kamala Classic: yeah I think that's about the right amount as well MillenniumMan831: I can take more. But no more than 10 King Kamala Classic: I think '92 is about as perfectly paced of a Rumble as you'll find but we'll discuss that later... Bob Barron: That's what I like about 04- the only time the ring fills up is toward the end, so Goldberg can kill people. Or in 1992- it only fills up at the end to have this all star lineup and to create doubt over who will win 1988 King Kamala Classic: OK… I've only seen '88 once but it was fairly recently. I think, like a lot of "first" events (WrestleMania I, SummerSlam '88, etc.), you have to excuse some of the suckiness as they're trying to find the rhythm, what they're trying to do. Anyways, I think wrestling-wise, the undercard for '88 is certainly solid. But the non-wrestling segments kind of kill the show Bob Barron: Yea, I fast forwarded through the Dino Bravo stuff when I watched it on 24-7 MillenniumMan831: The Bravo stuff isn't too bad, it's just too long King Kamala Classic: and The Rumble is interesting as it’s the first and they're obviously trying to find the rhythm and it’s not every man for itself. But it's not particularly good by the standards of future Rumbles. I'd probably rank it in the Bottom 5 or so. Dr. Venkman PhD: It was a good first attempt but not something that holds up. It gets the "first attempt" pass. Bob Barron: Given that it was the first time they did it on TV, I think they did a great job King Kamala C lassic: I mean I like every Rumble to some extent (even '95 and '99)...it was a solid first televised effort. Just a bit underwhelming compared to later efforts. MillenniumMan831: I'd be marking out if I saw it live on USA Bob Barron: Ricky Steamboat forgetting to lift his arm up makes me laugh Dr. Venkman PhD: For the card, it's worth noting that the Islanders/Young Stallions match is... something.I can't say I've ever seen a 2/3 falls match have an interview segment between falls. Dandy: They early Rumbles are weird in retrospect due to the company not putting on larger than life events, or at least trying to do so. When you watch the first Mania, it doesn't hold up to what the event would become. Same for the Rumble in my opinion. They basically just had someone win, then Hogan made it his match for a couple of years, and then 1992 changed the game. The stipulation and star power make it totally different now than it was when it started. Bob Barron: It's kind of weird how in 1988 and in 1989 it was just for bragging rights and now it's all about THE ROAD TO WRESTLEMANIA 1989 MillenniumMan831: I've always had a hardon for this particular Rumble match due to the randomness. On the CV released, there were 8 guys on the cover, Studd was not among them. Ax, Smash, Andre, & perfect made an interesting first 4, Snake came in and cleaned house w/ Damian, Savage followed, Rockers/Busters had some nice spots together and seperate, Hogan/Savage almost split, followed by HOGAN ELIMINATED HOGAN ELIMINATED . . . I hated Hogan growing up. But yeah, everything in the match made sense, it was well paced, and there was surprise and intrigue attached to it Dr. Venkman PhD: Was Race/Haku cut from the CV? MillenniumMan831: Yeah, it was. As was most of Martin/Robin. King Kamala Classic: I watched it last year in the buildup to the show and it was certainly better than I remembered it being. Haku/Harley is a good match. Even at this stage- Harley could still bring it in the ring and Heenan’s antics are fun in that one. The Rumble is definitely an improvement over the previous year’s effort. Dandy: I will say that they started piecing it together for the entire match to tell a story with this one, but it still fell short of what it would eventually become. MillenniumMan831 It was funny how Studd would shoo away the faces so he could whomp Akeem's ass all by himself 1990 Dr. Venkman PhD: Ok, in my memory, I somehow remembered 1990 as being "so so".It's an AMAZING Rumble. They really paced out the stars well. In the first 10, you have DiBiase (which provides some great commentary from Gorilla), Savage, Piper. DiBIase, who has an issue with Roberts. Dandy: DiBiase gave birth to the iron man story here. Dr. Venkman PhD Yes! That too. King Kamala Classic This is my 2nd favorite Rumble personally, it's been kind of overshadowed by '92 and '04 in ensuing years and due to the fact that there's really nothing on the line other than bragging rights Dr. Venkman PhD: Dusty comes in at #10 and he has his issue with Savage. It's really quite an exciting opening 10 entrants, much better than say, 10 jobbers. Dandy: I liked how DiBiase went from 30 the year before to being first. Bob Barron: I like how Dibiase always had low numbers after that- karmic justice Dr. Venkman PhD: In the later portions, you get the Warrior/Hogan CRISS CROSS, and all that build-up. It sucks that Hogan - as world champion - won the thing, but what can you do. Dandy: It was the tried and true formula of Hogan must win everything, Bob Barron: Warrior should've won dumping out Hogan Dr. Venkman PhD My REAL favourite part of the 1990 Rumble, though? Shawn and Marty's pre-match promo. They lay it out that everyone - including Hogan and Warrior - better beware. Marty lasted 1:37 and was the first guy tossed. Shawn lasted TWELVE SECONDS. King Kamala Classic: even remember what was on the undercard. A Bushwhacker-Rougeaus match probably? Ronnie Garvin-Greg Valentine I think in one of the matches that's probably pretty good now but bored the hell out a ten year old King Kamala Classic. Dr. Venkman PhD: I hated Valentine / Garvin as a kid, and I still do to a point (the angle around it is retarded). how can you not like THE HAMMER JAMMER! MillenniumMan831: I was shocked Garvin went over here Dr. Venkman PhD But if you get around blatant no-sellings of figure fours because a SHIN PAD is being worn, it's actually really good. Lots of stiff chops and the like. 1991 Dandy: I enjoyed Rockers/Express, but I was a huge fan of both teams. Slaughter and Warrior was needed for the big AM angle, but I would have really liked to have seen a Warrior/Hogan rematch at the time, so I didn't like Slaughter winning. The Rumble was very crowded at the beginning. Undertaker started cleaning house, and it loosened up a bit in there. However, it got crowded again, and then Hogan comes in. You had to know Hogan was going to win this, as that was all he did back then. King Kamala Classic: I think that was a big problem with that match. Just kind of a blah beginning but it does get much better towards the end. I kind of like '91. Overshadowed by '90 and '92 but solid in its own right. Certainly a good match if you're a mark for THE MODEL! Dr. Venkman PhD The show makes me wonder if they had some big plans for Shane Douglas. Monsoon puts him over big time. And he lasted 26:23. Impressive for a rookie kid. Bob Barron: I don't have a problem with Hogan winning 91, since he gets revenge on Quake and it sets up WM Dandy: Earthquake was supposed to be the big obstacle that seemed impossible at the end that Hogan would overcome. Dr. Venkman PhD 1991, while completely unofficial, is the first year the "Winner goes on to Mania to face the champion" stip is there. Of course it didn't formally exist until 1993, where Mean Gene called it the most important stipulation ever (how that was more prestigious then outright WINNING the belt, I do not know). Dandy: If the match told a better story throughout, it would be better. It seemed like they didn't know what they wanted to do except for Undertaker looking impressive and Hogan overcoming the odds yet again. If they wanted to do only that, Taker should have done even more damage than he did, and have him lose by someone holding the top rope down from outside, setting up a feud and clearing the way for Hogan to win. 1992 Bob Barron: The 1992 Rumble was the gold standard until 2004. The Flair story is great, you have Dibiase being #1 again, everyone going after Flair, Piper coming in and beating the dog piss out of him, Roberts turning on everyone, Heenan praising Piper and then turning him on a second later, Savage's boneheaded move, and once #30 comes in, you have no idea who is going to win.My only complaint is that I think they focus on Flair a little too much, making it obvious he's either winning or making it to the final 2. And the ring gets a bit too crowded at times, as there are a few minutes where nothing happens. And Repo Man eliminates two people? But really, Barbarian doesn't like Flair is all you need to know about this one. Also, Bossman's elimination is hilarious...poor guy Dr. Venkman PhD: I will say when I was 10, I had no idea Flair was winning. I bought into the fact that being #3 meant he was out. MillenniumMan831: Heenan spazzing at even the smallest hints of a threat is great too . . . A 300 POUND LITHUANIAN! Bob Barron One thing I never got: Why would the Mountie, LOD, Natural Disasters, etc. all agree to be in undercard matches knowing they couldn't be in the Royal Rumble. Wouldn't you want the world title? I also like the nods to history with Valentine and Von Erich both going after Flair. And poor Nikolai Volkoff. Flair's promo at the end (save for put that cigarette out) is tremendous MillenniumMan831: Hulk WHO Dr. Venkman PhD: Though Bob makes a point about the undercard guys, it is nice from a logic standpoint that 3 of the 4 matches involve tag guys who are focusing on tag team glory, not singles titles. Dandy: I had no idea who was going to win, and I fully expected Hogan to win as that was the order of business at the time. It seemed obvious that Flair would hit the wall due to how long he was in there, and that he would be dead weight at the end. Bob Barron: I like how Taker and Hogan got guaranteed spots in the 20s, yet Taker draws #20 MillenniumMan831: Tunney told the undercard guys to fuck off. Only 30 spots Dr. Venkman PhD: Of course Beverlys/Buchwackers sucks. MillenniumMan831: Damn you Stephen Gray, the Bushwhackers/Beverlies match was charming Dandy: So, I think it came across as exciting and new, and as soon as Hogan is eliminated, you were like, "WHAT? Now who wins?" Dr. Venkman PhD: I was pretty sure Piper or Sid was going to win. My cousin and I knew Hogan and Flair wouldn't. Bob Barron: Gorilla and Bobby covering for Savage is funny too. Apparently, anyone can jump over the rope! Dr. Venkman PhD: Too bad Monsoon and Heenan couldn't cover for Mil Mascaras in 1997. King Kamala Classic: I think my old adage of bad shows being easier to talk about than good ones rings true here. '92 is fucking awesome. Not much else to add that hasn't been said. Sure, the undercard sort of sucks (save for Piper's IC title win and the opener) but even that's saved by Gorilla and The Brain's awesome commentary. Dandy: Heenan's commentary definitely puts it over the top, and all of us who knew a lot about the NWA started thinking of the possibilities of Hogan/Flair at WM. Bob Barron: Piper-Jake-Flair is such good stuff. I like when Jake runs in and Gorilla with utter disdain in his voice goes: Jake...the Snake....Roberts. 1993 Dr. Venkman PhD I've always said I don't like 1993. I bought a VHS copy of it and watched it, but always felt bored with it.But I know other people have been defending 1993 whenever I put it in the same breath as 1995. So I decided to watch it this year with a blank slate and try to get a new perspective on it. If the match was entrants 1-15 and only 30 minutes, it would have been AWESOME. It's fast paced, action packed, you have Martel/Tito and Virgil/DiBiase going at it. Flair is good, Backlund is good, Lawler attacks Flair right from the bat and that's pretty funny. Then Giant Gonzales does his thing and it's possibly the most lackluster last half in Rumble history. Bob Barron: Yea, that's my problem with it. All the star power is in the first half. Once Giant Gonzalez runs in, it's down to Savage and Yoko, and it's just boring Dr. Venkman PhD: Which of those faces was going to win? Carlos Colon? Perfect needed to last longer. As a I kid I KNEW Yokozuna was going to win, didn't want him to win, and wasn't left with any shreds of hope for him not to win. King Kamala Classic: I thought Savage had a shot at winning as a naive mark. Bob Barron: Also, Savage can jump over the top rope and it's cool, but another guy dumps Taker out and it counts? Dr. Venkman PhD I was pretty into Savage's shot at the end, but then he got retarded. MillenniumMan831: I marked for Repo's late entrance as I hoped against hope everyone would forget about him and he'd squeeze in the final 3 or 4. Dr. Venkman PhD: Was I supposed to think Tatanka was going to win? Maybe I was supposed to be rooting for Backlund. MillenniumMan831: MR Backlund young man! Dr. Venkman PhD And why is Tenryu in this?! That's cool though. King Kamala Classic: Honestly, I might be the only one but one of my three or four favorite Rumble moments is the moment towards the end of the match after Backlund eliminates Rick Martel and just looks around in complete shock and realizes he's in the Final Three. The moment is kind of soured by Yoko throwing him out ten seconds later but I've always loved it. Bob Barron: Looking at the list of entrants: Carlos Colon? Terry Taylor? Koko B. Ware? Berzerker? Dr. Venkman PhD: On the undercard, I find Jannetty/HBK to be a real let down. When I watched the show with my cousin and uncle, my uncle got a hearty chuckle at the ending. Steel posts and what not? Those don't hurt you. A ladies shoe? DOWN FOR THE COUNT. Worked for WCW in 96. Bob Barron: I always thought it was funny that Jannetty never really could get revenge against HBK. Except for that one RAW, HBK always got the better of him King Kamala Classic the most one sided series this side of Hogan-Savage Bob Barron: At least Savage got a rap song out of it 1994 Dr. Venkman: 94: The debut of 90 second intervals works fine here. The Diesel moment is born. I like this Rumble, it's just too bad it had that goofy deal with Taker. Bob Barron: I've seen that Rumble a million times. Quebecers-Harts is awesome, and Owen's heel turn (aside from his flub) is just great The Taker-Yoko stuff is awful, but it's funny bad I feel The Rumble itself is solid. The Diesel stuff at the beginning is how you put someone over (love Dibiase when Virgil comes out), and I like Savage trying to kill Crush You also have that cool moment when Marty comes out and goes right for HBK and Fatu in the final 4! It gets bogged down with having too many people in there, but overall, I think it's a fun show and Rumble King Kamala Classic: The amount of men it takes to put away 'Taker is of Nashian proportions But I like this show as well for many reasons. Partially cause it's around the time I started watching but having watched it for the first time in years a couple of months ago, it holds up relatively well. The Taker-Yoko stuff is crap but as Bob Barron says it's WrestleCrapian crap not boring IRS/Taker crap. Everything else ranged from servicable to very good. The Rumble itself is a bit too clogged but has its share of moments. I'd say it's the Best New Generation era Rumble ('94-'97) MillenniumMan831 I was saddened that Backlund's 93 performance wasn't even glossed over when he made his entrance Dandy: I have always liked the Diesel Spot, and I feel it should be thrown in every few years to push someone up the card a bit. Perhaps the pushed person could eliminate a huge star with ease in the middle of it or something. King Kamala Classic Was this the first Rumble to have a random legend show up? Bob Barron: 1993 had Carlos Colon MillenniumMan831: 92 had Volkoff (he count?) King Kamala Classic: Though The Hammer might not have qualified as a legend yet in '94. He was merely washed up at that stage This is The Rumble that had Tenyru in it right? MillenniumMan831: 2 years in a row for Tenyru? King Kamala Classic I don't know why that came to mind. Probably cause I was just reading about Tenyru in Jericho's book. Bob Barron: Tenyru and Kabuki. They beat up Luger. But he makes it in anyway, since he's an American Dandy: That gives me an idea. They should get a top wrestler from a foreign promotion enter the Rumble match, then have him enter every year. He could become "Mr. Royal Rumble" like the guy that was "Mr. Ninja Warrior." Lots of directions they could go in with that. Well, it's my idea, not Vince's. It would never fly in WWE unless it was booked as a comedy segment each year like Pete Rose vs. Kane 1995 King Kamala Classic: Surprisingly good undercard. Ramon/Jarrett is another one of their solid but kind of forgettable *** affairs. I've always been a fan of random plucky tag teams taking the titles so I enjoy Bob Holly and 123 Kid Vs The New Money Inc (was that their official name or was it just me calling that team that?) MillenniumMan831: just you King Kamala Classic: Maybe it's because I was still a mark at the time but I kind of like the beginning of the LT/Bam Bam angle and I've never gotten why some people call their match one of the worst WrestleMania main events of all time. It's the Flair/Steamboat of celebrity matches. But that's for the WrestleMania roundtable I guess Anyways, the main event is good but I personally would have shaved off 5-10 minutes and had a clearer finish. Did Bret not want to do a clean job? I don't agree with Nash very often but one of the fatal blows to his World title reign was having a Double DQ finish in his first major title defense. Bob Barron: Bret v. Diesel is just awesome, Bret just knew how to work with Big Daddy Cool Dandy: Bret knew how to work with almost anyone at this point. King Kamala Classic: The only thing I don't like on the undercard is IRS/Taker which as I said is just a boring as dirt, typical mid '90s Taker match Bob Barron: Why would IRS or Taker give up a Wrestlemania title shot for that. It never made sense to me King Kamala Classic: I think I said in the first part of this roundtable but I at least kind of like every Rumble. '95 is the one I come closest to disliking. Worst Rumble roster ever (except possibly the first) and it's poorly booked to boot. Half of the guys who had a semi-legitimate shot at taking it had been long gone by the end. Bob Barron: I finally watched the whole Rumble recently (stopping after Bulldog clotheslines HBK), and it's just so bad King Kamala Classic: Anyways, more random legend appearances but instead of the special cameo feel they were probably aiming for, it just felt like they were desparately trying to fill out the roster. Bob Barron:I didn't get why they didn't just put Taker and IRS in the Rumble or Bam Bam MillenniumMan831 Dick Murdoch's airplane spin may have been the highspot of the match You had to know it would suck going in when Mabel & Bundy were heavily promoted as the favorites to win King Kamala Classic: I can't remember who said it in the thread but this Rumble was a perfectly good (err...bad) waste of Rick Martel. MillenniumMan831: I bet Martel was thrilled he'd only have to work 2 minutes on a one-shot King Kamala Classic: The only highlights are the finish and Mo getting chucked out in six or seven seconds. I said it in the thread but Mo might have been the first babyface I disliked and I'm not sure why. MillenniumMan831: Cause everyone wanted to see Mabel crush people, not Mo rasslin King Kamala Classic: I think that's what it was. I liked Mabel and Oscar but not Mo. 1996 MillenniumMan831: Ok, so I don't remember the undercard too well other than marking out for Goldust's IC Title win over Razor (nevermind that the Kid barely touched Razor w/ that kick). Oh yeah, JJ busting the guitar over Ahmed Johnson was awesome too. Anywhoo, I kind of liked this Rumble. Bear in mind, I HATED Shawn Michaels at this time. A stripping boy toy did nothing for me as a 13 year old. The intrigue of Jake/Vader entering really gave it some ummmpphhh it needed. Lawler's cheapass hiding under the ring rocked as did Vader's meltdown after he was eliminated However, as a Hakushi mark, I was bummed about his very quick exit. Austin had a decent showing as I don't remember the last segment other than Diesel eating the superkick giving Shawn the win Bob Barron: Doesn't the Rumble end really fast? MillenniumMan831 : Similar to 94 maybe where the ring was full then everyone jumps over the top at a rapid rate King Kamala Classic I remember the ending being kind of abrupt. For some reason beyond me, the randomness of this group of Rumble entrants works. Doesn't hurt that they all have entrance music! MillenniumMan831: I remember one of the Apter mags busting HHH's nuts for doing virtually nothing of consequence during his 45 minutes in the Rumble. They compared it to Flair who went about an hour and was still able to dump guys over and deliver some offence King Kamala Classic: Ah the days when Triple H jobbed to Duke "The Dumpster" Droese MillenniumMan831: Would have been nice to have Duke enter and immediately throw HHH after all that time. Just to stick it to Hunter deeper and show the kids that it doesn't pay to cheat Dandy: Back to this Rumble, I did like Shawn winning back-to-back at the time. 1997 Bob Barron: The undercard on this show is awful. I love Goldust but him and HHH have no chemistry at all. Ahmed Johnson is always good for a laugh, and that lucha match shows that Vince did not understand why the cruiserweights worked on Nitro. Seriously, that lucha match is one of the most random matches ever King Kamala Classic: Vince seemed like he just picked six random lucha guys for his (poor) attempt at starting something resembling a cruiserweight division. Bob Barron: The Rumble match itself is one that I really like. It has its flaws (the countdown clock not working, the Mexican guys, the fact that the WWF had about 12 wrestlers employeed at this point) but Austin is just so cool in this Rumble. Austin doing pushups, or mocking Jesse Jammes after he eliminates him is hilarious. Austin's reaction to Bret Hart coming out is one of my favourite Rumble moments. Dr. Venkman PhD: The beginning of Austin hitting the big time, but not that great a Rumble. The talent pool was far too shallow at this point too as, not counting Bret and Owen's participation in 1994, this is the first year that practically the entire undercard was thrown into the Rumble. Austin does have a good run, though.Dandy: Austin really started to gain steam here, I believe. Bob Barron: and I think Jerry Lawler is the best comedic moment ever MillenniumMan831: Agree on the Lawler spot. Felt like it was an Austin/Bret Rumble Bob Barron: I like Austin's disdain for the jobbers too, he's like: Wait...I have to fight this guy? Bret's spaz out is cool. I don't remember much about HBK v. Sid. I think the papered crowd hurt the show, since they were only there for HBK, and nothing else. Dandy: The Boyhood Dream was a bit over the top, but it did make a nice moment to show in highlights. It became iconic in WWE land. King Kamala Classic: I haven't seen this in years but I don't remember liking this show very much at all. The Rumble is basically a two man show (granted the two men put on a hell of a show that carries the match) and the show just feels flat thanks to the dead crowd. MillenniumMan831: I have trouble staying awake when the Cubans start to fill the ring during the Rumble Bob Barron: And poor Mil Mascaras. Is it true that he didn't want to get eliminated so he did it himself? King Kamala Classic: from what I've read about him in various wrestler autobiographies, that wouldn't surprise me. Bob Barron Yea, the Rumble gets dead in the middle, since the roster was so barren, but it gets better at the end MilleniumMan831: I know Mil has been dumped in 1984 battle royals for the WWF Bob Barron It's funny how today, half the roster gets excluded from the rumble, while in 1997.....we have Latin Lover MillenniumMan831: I'm surprised Mr Hughes didn't get a number Bob Barron: I like how Austin freaks out at first, but then collects himself and tells Bret to bring it MillenniumMan831: I kinda dug Diesel making it to the last 3 . . . 2nd year in a row for the big guy Bob Barron: And Vader legally killing Flash Flunk MillenniumMan831: No relation to Terry . . . who was all entertainment as usual Bob Barron Also, Bulldog is going to win the RumbleBecause he's BIZARRE Dandy: That promo still weirds me out as I try to figure out what the fuck he is talking about. King Kamala Classic: he's obviously zonked out on something Bob Barron: He's zonked out on winning the Rumble. Owen trying to bullshit an excuse after dumping Davey was great MillenniumMan831: I also laughed at that enormous 2x4 Ahmed was clonking Faarooq with Bob Barron: YOUB GUNNA DOG King Kamala Classic: Ahmed Johnson is never not entertaining. Bob Barron: Ahmed Johnson, Faarooq, Mil Mascaras- not the smartest Rumble eliminations MillenniumMan831: Well, at least Faarooq was escaping a beatdown 1998 Dr. Venkman PhD: I really enjoyed this in 1998 but future viewings really expose the same issue that plagued the 1997 version - shallow talent pool. I also am not a fan of how they basically said "Austin is winning this" - yeah, most people knew Shawn was winning in 1995 and 1996, but this Rumble they actually booked the entire match around jobbers trying to eliminate Austin before the match even started. Loved the 3 Faces of Foley (logic be damned), Honky Tonk Man appearance, and the hardcore bit at the beginning. Shawn vs. Taker is also a pretty good title match - love the leaping Tombstone from the apron to the casket.Bob Barron This is a decent show. The crowd being really hot helps the matches, and The Rock was so good in 1998 and you have Luna Vachon getting killed by Vader. The Rumble itself is pretty blah. Austin winning is too obvious, and the roster was thin at that point, so no one else remotely had a chance. It's like 1994 in that too many people are in there for so long. Austin coming through the crowd and tossing Mero is great. The three faces of Foley thing is cute, but it underscores how small the roster was. Taker v. HBK is a lot of fun, and not just if you want to see HBK break his back. Kane lighting Taker on fire- Taker has bad luck in title casket matches. Marc Mero coming out with Sable to a huge pop and having this grin on his face cracked me up. Millennium Man831 I remember the Rumble match being entertaining to a degree but sure seemed like a lot of Godwinn/DOA caliber entrants King Kamala Classic I don't remember much about this show other than The Three Faces of Foley and Taker/HBK being a lot of fun (though it's probably the worst match of their series) Bob Barron:Mark Henry handling the big Johnson is another great moment and Cold Stone Steve Austin.Mike Tyson looked like he was having the time of his life at that show. MillenniumMan831: I wonder if Shane had to explain the rules to the Rumble before the match to Mike King Kamala Classic: Was it at this show when Iron Mike mentioned being a big fan of Bruno Sammartino. Bob Barron: I heard he was a huge wrestling fan. Foley said he remembered obscure stuff about wrestling. Dandy: I agree wholeheartedly about Austin being the obvious choice, but he did a good job in the match. Austin WAS the Rumble match for a string of years. 1999 King Kamala Classic: I know I’m in the minority here but I don’t hate this show. This is kind of the epitome of a Attitude era Russo show. Lot of flash, not very much substance but I still find myself reasonably entertained throughout. X-Pac/Gangrel for some reason is the only match that stands out to me now on the undercard. Perhaps the best match of the night from a pure wrestling standpoint. Watching it live The I Quit match totally stole the show and The Rumble just felt like an afterthought. The beginning and the end of the match are fairly entertaining Russocity but the middle section where Austin is getting taken to the hospital is unfathomably boring. Dr. Venkman PhD: Terribly booked and pretty dull all around. 10 years ago I had a legitimate feat the match would be a 60 minute McMahon vs. Austin match with Austin eliminating the other 28 guys one by damn one... then it actually happened with entrant #3 (Golga). I would say "thankfully that fear did not come true", but I'm not entirely sure that would have been much worse than what we got. Rock vs. Mankind isn't all that good upon future viewing either - it's brutal to a disgusting degree and always will be, but not something that's very fun to watch. Honestly, I think my favourite match on this show is Gangrel vs. X-Pac, though I was pretty mad Gangrel didn't win the European title. The internet told me his contract guaranteed it! Bob Barron: The show is Mick Foley's head v. a chair, and nothing else. 1995 has its moments, 1999 is just a mockery of the entire match. The only good part of 99 is Chyna getting tossed out and Mark Henry laughing at her MillenniumMan831: It did have Vince in his last hoorah as commentator Bob Barron: This is the Rumble with 3 minutes of a guy standing there. And Kane gets eliminated because of mental workers! MillenniumMan831 Vince's "Oh no" when Bossman doublecrossed and dumped D-Lo was great King Kamala Classic: My dad, of all people, watched this PPV with me and my brother and seemed to really enjoy it for some reason. My dad loves the type of stuff you'd expect non-wrestling fans to hate and only that type of the stuff. Dandy: You would think that Pat Patterson or someone could have helped Russo piece together the match so it would flow better with his dumb ideas. 2000 Bob Barron: The undercard is really good, helped by the hot MSG Crowd. Tazz coming out and killing Angle is funny, especially given what happened to both guys. I could watch that tables match a thousand times, it's so much fun. Cactus Jack v. HHH is fantastic. One of the best matches I've ever seen, and is just an incredible rollercoaster ride. The barb wire, HHH's gig job, the handcuffs, The Rock coming out to free Foley, Foley kicking out of the pedigree, and then a pedigree on the thumbtacks...holy shit.The Rumble itself is really boring, once Rikishi gets eliminated especially. It's the only Rumble where King has ever sounded noticably bored, begging for The Rock to come out. The early parts with Rikishi playing Diesel, and them dancing, and Backlund rock, but again the WWF roster was just so thin at this point, and it was obvious Rocky was winning. King Kamala Classic: The Rumble is kind of middle of the road but I love Lawler making them replay Taka's elimination over and over again Bob Barron: Yea, that's great. But toward the end, he's like: I hope it's The Rock...and I'm wondering if he had a junior prom to get toThat's the match that made Triple H. That's the only show where the Rumble match shouldn't have gone on last, since you just can't follow that MillenniumMan831: It was a stellar match 2001 Bob Barron: The 2001 Rumble undercard is excellent. Dudleyz v. E-n-C was a fun tag match, Benoit v. Jericho is fantastic, and I really dig HHH v. Angle. Plus Chyna almost dies, and Billy Gunn is concerned. You can't script that! MillenniumMan831: The Rumble match itself was FULL of entertainment. Hardies colliding, Drew Carey doing a bangup job in his role offering Kane a handful of cash, the Hardcore Rumble breaking out before Kane had enough and ridded the ring of everyone, the HONKY FUCKIN TONK MAN, then the match gets rollin again w/ Taker & Rock, then the BIG SHOW's back and gone in a few minutes, Austin comes back from the dead, but whogivesashit, it's HAKU!!!!! We widdle down the field and it looks like no one remembered to book Billy Gunn's elimination so Austin takes care of that before eventually dumping Kane (who had an awesome performance) to win the Rumble Bob Barron: Billy Gunn mocking Austin, and Austin killing him is great. I got carried away King Kamala Classic Another contender for Best Overall Rumble card. The Rumble itself was the best since '92 and is in My Top Five Favorites Bob Barron: I like King flipping out over Honky and JR going: You'd think they were cousins!I still say they missed a boat with Scotty 2 Hotty coming out to face the BOD. I thought he should've come out all nervous, but giving them sunglasses, lights go out and they all start dancing for a bit, but the BOD stop, stare at each other, and chuck a still dancing Scotty out. MillenniumMan831: Oh man, that'd have been tight. Only thing I would have changed offhand was giving Tazz a bid in the hardcore rumble and not being 10 second fodder to Kane King Kamala Classic: Oh man I'd pay $20 to just see Taker bust a move Bob Barron I like HHH beating up Austin and JR having a seizure, ignoring that Austin did the same thing 30 minutes ago! And boy does it suck to be Lodown 2002 King Kamala: Fun undercard. Ric Flair/Vince McMahon is an entertaining, overbooked brawl. Spike and Tazz Vs The Dudley Boyz is a fun if slightly forgettable opener. The Rock/Jericho is great as most of their matches tended to be. Bob Barron You forgot Regal winning the I-C title King Kamala Oh that's right. One of the many boring Regal/Edge matches took place here. Bob Barron: I hate you. No lie, my friend and I freaked out when Regal won. We were going crazy King Kamala Classic: The matches weren't bad just dull and sort of formulaic. MillenniumMan831 : It was a series like that that had Attitude fans hoping for a WCW rebirth King Kamala Classic The Rumble itself was incredibly predictable but it had its moments. Not quite as good as the previous two Rumbles but an admirable effort. Bob Barron: The Rumble is good, but loading up the stars to the end kind of kills it King Kamala Classic Maven eliminating Taker and the ensuing Taker freakout is one of my favorite Rumble moments. MillenniumMan831: Maven damn near shit himself. Hurricane looking to chokeslam Austin/HHH was my Rumble high spot, I love how they actually sell it for a second. Bob Barron: Maven eliminating Taker...watching it live, shocked the shit out of us/ Austin totally whiffing on the stunner yet Booker T selling it anyway...oh, wrestling and of course, Mr. Perfect swatting the gum MillenniumMan831 : Perfect! He recaptured 1990 for one night Bob Barron: I was rooting so hard for him to win MillenniumMan831: I didn't see it live, but even taped I was rooting for him to win Bob Barron: I thought he'd get tossed in ten seconds. And then as he kept outlasting other guys, I was like: Wait...shit, is he gonna win? MillenniumMan831: Especially after the guys directly before him Bob Barron: He outlasted Austin! Austin eliminating everyone, and then bringing them back in to stun them is funny. MillenniumMan831 : Ya figure if anyone is hanging on to the rope in that exchange, it's Austin, but no. 2003 Bob Barron: The undercard is a one match show, and of course I'm talking about The Commonwealth Connection v. Dudleyz. It's amazing how awful Triple H-Scott Steiner is, and then Benoit v. Angle have the complete opposite match. The crowd turning on Steiner as he does one too many suplex is hilarious, as his him trying to look tough with a purple thong. Benoit v. Angle is just incredible though. They took a crowd that was completely dead and turning on the show, and had them on the edge of their seat at the end and Benoit gets a standing ovation....for losing! King Kamala Classic: yeah, it's amazing to have one of the worst matches in Rumble history immedietely followed by one of the best. MillenniumMan831: I probably would have been better served to see that match live on ppv and not months later after all that hype Bob Barron: I still love Benoit hitting a diving headbutt when Angle's all the way across the ring. Tazz's commentary is great, as you can tell he's marking out and loving every minute of it. The Rumble match itself is good. The first half is amazing, 92, 04 levels, but then it drops off as the second half is filled with slugs. Once Jericho gets eliminated, the match just dies MillenniumMan831: I remember TSM being suicidal when Test eliminated Jericho Bob Barron: Matt Hardy and Shannon Moore are the best part of the match. Also, HBK is the first #1 entry to be eliminated #1. I always thought that was funny that Jericho wanted to match HBK, but just to be a dick, HBK took #1. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite Chris Jericho's face.I watched it at a movie theatre...in Canada, so that match was like the Super Bowl. There's also a spot where Taker almost gets tossed, and someone has to pull him back in King Kamala Classic: My thoughts on The Rumble are the same as Barron's. Watching the first half, I thought it was shaping up to be one of the best Rumbles ever but then it kind of flatlines. Bob Barron: I remember TSM had a heart attack over the final 4 being Big Dave, Kane, Taker and Brock MillenniumMan831: Yeah, that was brutal Bob Barron: Lesnar also won the Rumble with the highest number in history (29) King Kamala Classic: until 30 finally did it MillenniumMan831: Two years in a row Bob Barron: I like how Shannon Moore keeps saving Matt, so Brock's like: Fuck this, and just F5s him out of the ring. Oh, and Maven v. Taker Part 2 is *****. And Edge kills Chris Harvard. Probably gave him one of his 10,000 concussions. Cena rapping the whole two minutes. MillenniumMan831 : B2 Bob Barron: Tommy Dreamer hitting Jericho square in the face with a cane . Tajiri tries the Tarantula and gets eliminated, and then a year later, it happens again MillenniumMan831: Didnt they have like that shortest hardcore rumble in history? Or was it just Dreamer and his one cane. I could have sworn he brought in a cart of weapons Bob Barron: Dreamer brought some weapons and then hit Jericho in the face, so Jericho stiffed the shit out of him and that was the end of the hardcore rumble! MillenniumMan831: That would explain how I cloudily remembered it Bob Barron: 2001 has the hardcore Rumble MillenniumMan831: I also recognize 1998 as having a hardcore rumble to open it Bob Barron: Yea, Funk and Foley and poor Rock gets killed. MillenniumMan831: The weapons made it to like entrant #5ish Bob Barron: I wonder if Maven drinks himself to sleep 2004 Dr. Venkman PhD: 2004 was great. Benoit was a real killer in there. He hung in there all night. You could put the women and children to bed because he was going to be there til the end. Dr. Venkman PhD: Often compared to 1992, this was a good Rumble to build up Benoit's title win at Mania XX, but what REALLY makes it great? They added the entry number to the chyrons! Never again will a TV viewer lose track of what number entrant they are at. The undercard of this show is pretty weak though and has one of my least favourite Hunter / Shawn matches, but that's par for the course at the Rumble - it's all about the big one. MilleniumMan831: Actually saw this live on ppv. Forgettable undercard. Fantastic Rumble! Can't quite put it above 92, more due to timing (If I was 10 and saw this Rumble, yeah I'd have this as #1) than anything else. Tremendous in-match storylines going on other than the obvious Benoit coast-to-coast job. Orton looked like he would match him minute for minute which made me nervous he'd win the damn thing and hose Benoit out of it at the end. The Ayatollah's comedy segment was just what the doctor ordered 1/2 way in. Foley's run-in was one of those unpredictably predictable moments if that makes a lick of sense. Nunzio pussying out as long as he could was great. Goldberg's entrance at #30 looked to change the face of the match until "The Real" Brock Lesnar took him out. Show being built as a one night only monster was fabulous as well. Just one of those matches I wouldn't be hesitant to show a non-fan. 2005 Dr. Venkman PhD: Another good Rumble with some good spots (the Raw vs. SmackDown stand off - and boy did that get a reaction, the Hassan beat down, the Puder - who I hate, so this was great - initiation, Paul London giving the floor mat a SSP) that was nice enough to include some good undercard matches too (though Taker vs. Heidenreich is quite bad). The backstage skits were good too - Christian trying to out rap Cena (and Tomko refusing to give him a beat), Eddie stealing Flair's number and wallet, and of course, Snitsky and Heidenreich. Speaking of Eddie, having just re-watched this the other day, it's amazing that his heel turn actually went through. His elimination got the largest round of boos followed by a very loud "Eddie" chant - something not seen for an elimination since the "Diesel Moment" of 1994. I also found it odd how Benoit was in the ring for the entire 1-30 duration again, but this point seems to go unnoticed. Bob Barron: A worthy sequel to 2004. The undercard is decent. Edge v. HBK is great, Taker v. Heidenreich….not so much. The three-way is decent, and HHH v. Orton is just weird since Orton just gets destroyed. I love the Rumble match. The opening where they all kill Puder is fun, and I like Edge, Rey and Benoit all lasting until the end. Benoit again almost going bell to bell is a nice tough. Paul London’s elimination is sick, and the crowd just goes crazy for everything Batista does. And Vince tears his quad too! 2006 Bob Barron: What a pile of shit this show was .Boogeyman v. JBL? Ashley Massaro v. Mickie James? The Rumble match itself not being the main event is lame, and they gave away all the key entrants in backstage skits. The Eddie-spolitation had officially become very uncomfortable at this point. I also like that Chavo had to be eliminated in a minute so as not to take away heat from Rey. The match itself is just bad, and gets bogged down by having too many people in there at once the whole time with nothing happening. HBK being eliminated by Shane McMahon (!) was cheap, since they did the same thing the prior year. Rey going bell to bell also didn’t mean anything, since they did the same story two years ago. Cena v. Edge is pretty bad, and they really shouldn’t have taken the title off of Edge when he was on fire. I refuse to believe Angle-Henry actually happened. MilleniumMan831: I actually ordered the stream of this on wwe.com Not the best decision ever but at least Rey Mysterio ultimately went over even though he sort of took a series of 5 minute naps throughout the match. Not the most charming Rumble but MNM had their moments. Just too much HHH dominating the likes of Flair, Show, Kane, ect for my tastes. 2007 MilleniumMan831: As decent as this Rumble was, I immediately think of the Sandman's sad outing. Would it have killed WWE to let him play around for 5 minutes before ridding him? I'll always be a mark at heart. I liked having Flair/Finlay start it. Don't remember much about the match other than Khali killing everyone before Taker came in and killed everyone Khali didn't have time to chuck. I personally found the Taker/Michaels scuffle to cap off the Rumble a little overrated but to each his own. Once it was down to those two, I had no preference as far as who I wanted to win so it was kind of lost on me. Dr. Venkaman PhD: A very good Umaga vs. Cena title match which began a very good year for Cena - people still boo him and portions of the internet still hate him and accuse him of not being over, but this match began to make many haters (myself included) that John actually could work. Not much happens for most of the Rumble match, but the final bit with Undertaker and Michaels is tremendous stuff to the point it increased the quality of the entire overall Rumble match 2008 Bob Barron: I was at this show live. Let me say that if you’ve never seen a Rumble live, you should. Nothing beats it. I really enjoyed the undercard. It was nice getting to see Flair last one time, and Edge v. Rey was great live. They hated Rey, loved Edge, but hated Vicki Guerrero. Gotta love New York. Jericho v. JBL is awful. Jeff v. Orton was a real disappointment, I think they did too good job of building Hardy and the match up. They had intended to make Hardy the usual lame duck challenger designed to make Orton look good, but I think after the great buildup people expected Hardy to win and a crazy heated contest, instead of a glorified RAW match. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good match, but the ending just comes out of nowhere and it sucked the life out of the crowd. I was upset, I thought for sure Hardy was going over. The Rumble match itself was fun, albeit confusing live. Where we were sitting, we never saw Hornswoggle go under the ring, and we didn’t know what happened to Finlay. Also, we thought Batista was eliminated at one point, we didn’t realise Umaga spiked him and he rolled out of the ring. I liked HBK-Taker renewing their war from last year, and it was fun seeing a lot of midcarders get to hang with them and have them sell their moves. Part of the fun of the Rumble. Snuka and Piper might be older than dirt, but the crowd popped huge for them and that was a cute moment. Once HBK and Taker get eliminated, the match just died live since everyone figured Triple H was going to win, especially after we thought Big Dave was tossed. Where I was sitting, you couldn’t see the entrance aisle so when Cena’s music hit everyone went insane, only I didn’t see him until he got closer to the ring. I’ve almost never heard a pop that loud. I do like that once Cena got to the ring, MSG remembered they hated him and started booing him again. Only in New York. The crowd was on its feet the rest of the Rumble, and it just exploded when it came down to Cena v. HHH. My friend loves HHH and I love Cena, so we were going at it, and it’s one of those moments that makes you remember why you love wrestling. Cena winning was great, though I don’t like how they cheapened the Rumble by having him cash in the title shot at No Way Out. MilleniumMan831: Quality Rumble here. Taker/Michaels starting was great. Loved Dreamer's pop upon his entrance and the unintentional heat Batista got for eliminating him a couple minutes later. Seeing Taker make a fool out of himself by headbutting Snuka was a sight to be seen. Hated seeing HHH dump Foley/Burke so effortlessly. Cena's surprise entry even took me by surprise. One of those endings that had to make the WWE fans that paid $40 to see the ppv feel like they got their money's worth. I'm getting we'll get Haastista this year as #30. As an aside, I would mark the fuck out if 7-8 guys were in the ring this year when Bushwhacker Luke's music hit. He could come out like he thought it was still 1990. Licking kids in Hardy shirts and being nutty all around the ring. Maybe Cole can take a lick. He yucks around the ring when his music stops for the countdown. Of course, it's Butch. They can act all crazy going to opposite sides of the ring where they simultaneously enter only for Miz to take Butch and Morrison to take Luke across the ring (so they actually cross paths) and eiliminate the Bushwhackers as they land on their feet and gleefully march to the back. I could give a fuck less if the kids won't know who they are, their fathers will do the Bushwhacker march in place while marking out with everyone else 25 and up in the arena.

Yeah, I saw him against Rikishi at a house show in July '02 and his heel antics alone made the match fairly entertaining. I was shocked at how he actually had charisma at that show. Whenever I think of the guy, I think of him getting into a shouting match with a kid with Down's Syndrome in the front row at that show.

Yeah but "Last Kiss" is a cover. We would have been sliding down a slippery slope if you'd have nominated that. What would have stopped Eric Clapton's popular acoustic rearrangement of "Layla" from getting in? You made the right call, Kinetic.

You'd think the Chicago Police Department wouldn't demote some guy just because his Mom is afraid he'll get shot! On the BET marathon, they followed the two part finale with a first season episode. It was kind of odd to go from The Wacky Adventures of Urkel and Twelve Other Zany Characters Played by Jaleel White to a second rate Cosby Show knockoff.

So I was watching The Legends of Wrestling: Heatseekers DVD and Roddy Piper and Buff Bagwell's boxing match was an extra and well, I kind of wanted to see if it was as terrible as everybody says it was. Well for the first few minutes, I thought to myself "Well this is pretty awful but maybe not as bad as I've heard" and then the finish comes and oh my god, it was even more retarded than I'd heard. And it all culminated in Ric Flair getting chased by Judy Bagwell. And I thought "Well, this must be the low point in Flair's career." Then I thought some more. I thought about him basically being a bitch during his entire feud with The Undertaker, the feud with Vince Russo and David Flair, having to put over stiffs like El Gigante and a decade past his prime Junkyard Dog in the early '90s, jobbing to Rico, and hanging out with Scott Hall and Udo Kier in the looney bin in early '99 and I realized for an undeniably great wrestler, Ric Flair has had a plethora of really terrible moments. The fact that he's successfully managed to maintain his reputation as the greatest wrestler of his time, while working under some of the most terrible bookers in wrestling history is really something to behold. And even in the worst of times, rarely has Flair managed to leave me uninterested. And since bad wrestling can be more fun to talk about than good wrestling, I figured this could be an interesting idea for a thread. So, let's talk about the most embarrassing moments in a storied and rightfully celebrated career. WOOOOOOOO!

Two guys eh? Well, I was thinking of going with another tag team with this pick if that's what you were looking at. Nah, not a tag team. Just two guys I'm planning to pair up against each other in a feud but if one of 'em gets taken, I really don't think I'll pick the other so I'll have to go back to the drawing board.

*wipes sweat off brow* My top two are still alive. Maybe I should have picked 'em last go 'round but we'll see.