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In this forum, attacks on the President are invariably personal and scurrilous. My attacks on Europe's self-professed relevance have been supported by solid facts about defence budgets, military research and development, and force projection capabilities. There is a difference. Rhetoric has its place, but you have to back it up with evidence. While some of the attacks got personal, my main point was that their is no reason for him to not to give evidence for an attack on Iraq. All the trouble at the moment could have been avoided. If Europe had been saying at the start that they wouldn't help, fair enough, there were worries at the start, but they only got worse when Bush was not forthcoming on the evidence. I know you don't think much of Europes aid, but was there really a need to distance yoursel from your allies like this?

It makes your points invalid when you call him a "moron," "full of shit," and a wannabe "overlord," when you say that he doesn't have "a shred of intelligence [or] integrity," and that he's "in the pocket of the oil men and his own Vice President." It's at that point that reasonable people stop listening. You weren't attacking his actions. You were denigrating him, insulting him, and slandering his character. What the hell do you want, a formal philosophical treatise on why the President of the United States isn't a "Daddies [sic] boy?" You want dignity and maturity in a response, try acquiring a little yourself. Like FK Teale said, I can't put a bowtie on a dog's ass. Fair enough, I went a bit overboard on some of that. However, I still stand by my opinion of him being in the pockets of the oil men, but then again its not like every other politican isn't doing it.

Im the first to admit that I attack the President for some of his actions (usually to do with foreign policy, which is what concerns me). Does the fact that I attack him make my points invalid? May i myself, not see a reason to attack his actions. Marny, if you are going to attack Europe then why do you react with such fury when someone turns it back on Bush? P.S I don't really want to turn this into another thread attacking Bush, since we were discussing it in another post, but this is a question that I feel I needed to ask?

Alright Marny, serious question, why do you believe so whole heartedly in Bush? You just don't seem to think that he can do any wrong. I just don't understand?

Any chance of mine being changed to "New Romantic". Hope I spelled that right, Thanks.

By the way, you should keep this up, its a great idea and gets a good debate going. 3 cheers for DeputyHawk

I saw this on the news the other night and was overjoyed to hear Powells remarks. I give Bush and his administation a hard time, but Powell is the one man I respect as he seems both honorable and intelligent. Truly the wrong man is in the White House, and I hope Powell can escape from the Bush Administartion with his reputation unscathed so he can run for office one day. This is the man who should be teaching Bush his diplomatic skill, but I fear he listens to the"2 horsemen of the apocalypse" too much.

Because I simply don't believe it. The same way you don't believe that your'e country can do any wrong. For someone with your obvious intelligence and cycnisicm, I find you dangerously naive when it comes to this issue. If you look to the past you see every country act in its own self interests, thats fair enough thats why countries exist. P.S I saw a film called "The Last Supper" last night. Its about a bunch of students who murder people whos views they don't agree with. Required viewing for anyone posting in this forum I think

Yes, but the resentment for the U.S is not only constant and immutable, but is growing and from many unexpected quarters (Britain, Germany etc.) And lets not pretend that the U.S would spread "Democracy" because of some fake sense of Justice for all. It would be for naked self-interest, and everybody can see that. So lets not try and pretend that the U.S is some form of Messiah on a national level. Its a country which has its own self-interest at heart, just like every other country in the World. Why can't you see that?

Having read your posts for a long time, I am left with a question. Where do you get your patriotisim from? It appears to be quite strong and just wonder the reasons for it. I live in Northern Ireland, and have never had any sort of patriotisim, since this place is such a mess. I suppose this could go out to other posters as well, i've just never been able to understand the intense emotions patrioism installs in people. Thanks in advance

The Romans, Greeks, Germans, and British all tried to recreate the World in their own images. Their Empires all crumbled to dust. Why should your'es be any different?

Marney, don't you care that even the U.K, probably your closest ally in the world is begining to turn against you. I mean they didn't just wake up one morning and say "Hm, I don't think i'll support America from now on". It takes a lot of concern with Americas actions to come to these descions. Do you honestly believe that Europe does not have valid concerns about some U.S actions and statements from your government.

I love reading that stuff, I take it back the mans a moron

Mystery Esikmo, you seem to be my uncouth alter ego. And I mean that in the nicest possible way

Do I think Bush is an idiot? Not an idiot, but an easily led man, not up to the job. Being a President, would I assume, require a person to be adept at many different parts of the job. Bush may be up to some of them, but some he is plainly not, and I don't think his staff are giving him the correct advice. I won't be pleasent about Bush until I think he is doing a good job in Foreign Affairs, which is the only part that concerns me. He can grind your country into the ground for all I care, its nothing to do with me. History shows us that mighty nations have fallen because they and their leaders believe themselves invincible. While I am not saying this is going to happen to America overnight, I can certainly see the seeds of this attitude being sown.

Maybe I view Clinton through rose tinted lens because of his invlovmnet in Northern Ireland, but I simply believe that Bush could learn things from him. Clinton may not have always been able to get results, but he could at least get people to listen to him, something I don't think Bush can master.

When I spoke about Clinton I was talking about his ability to get other Leaders on his side, certainly not about his integrity.

And I curse God for every day Bush stays in office. Id like to see a human being with at least a shred of intelligence and integrity in the Oval Office, instead of Daddies boy whos in the pocket of the oil men and his own Vice President. No, my view of Bush isn't very high in case your'e wondering. But hell, hes better than Cheney.

The first time was after 9/11 and everybody jumped on the war on terror (rightly so). If something major happened again, i'm sure they would again. But when he asks for an ill defined and ill thought out attack on Iraq, people tend to lose the ggodwill that they have. If Clinton was still in office, you wouldn't have this problem, because while he may be an odious human being he knows how to play the game better than Bush

If Bush did say that then fuck him. Its like I have thought all along, hes a jumped up little shit, whos got all of Daddies yes men telling him hes the lord and master of the world. I'd have more respect if he just came out and said "Im your new overlord, worship me" I wish he would stop hiding behind his democratic mask. The mans full of shit. Alright the rants over. I'll say this, I don't know how he does domestically so he could be good at that, but he needs to attend International Diplomacy 101 straight away. I would say he probably has the lowest approval of a U.S President ever overseas. And Marney, I know you will say you don't care, but think of it this way. Whats Bush going to do the next time he needs International solidarity, because if he acts like this all the time, he won't get it.

I know what kids like this act like. You put one fucking hand on them and its " I know my rights". Next thing your'e in court. These kids are much smarter than you would think, they know how to play the game well enough

" Thats all very well, but I think we have all seen time and time again were the warnings of the past have been ignored. I have no faith in human nature that such lessons will be learnt even from such a tradgedy as 9/11

Do you really think it will ever stop? Sure if you sucecced in demolishing terrorism and bringing Democracy to the ME I can see that lasting 30 or so years, but it would be like placing a plaster on a bullet wound. The resentment of the U.S would still be there, and the minuite you drop your guard those democracies will crumble and terror will rise again. Force has its place, but this attitude of "we go in, we win, end of story" isn't going to fly. Its going to take decades of nation building to even have a glimmer of hope and even then Im not convinced that it would work in the long run. The U.S and the M.E might as well be 2 different planets, and if you think you can go in and force yoyr'e values and ideals on this volitile area I think you are in for a nasty surprise.

Maybe, but not this quickly. Everybody was shocked after 9/11, and every single ally of the U.S was prepared to help. I do believe that it has been the uncomprehensiable arrogance and stupidy of Bush and his administration that has eroded support so fast. In fact didn't Cheney say that they would invade Iraq no matter what the opinion of members of congress. That is what scares me and a hell of a lot of people, the fact that they seem unwilling to listen to anybody, no matter what.

I find it unbelivable that 1 person didn't pick up on this before they were shipped. They obviously do need an education if their that dumb.