Zorin Industries

Thanks for the help on that one it has been bugging me. By the way, who are the 3 guys in your bottom sig picture

I think its because shes a friend of Dr Toms and she just comes over to post in current events

There is no need to accuse me of anti-semitism, where the fuck did that come from. I have not once mentioned Israel or the jews in this topic. I am no racist and I would like an apology. All i tried to say in the above post is that I believe that we have learned from are mistakes. You seem to believe that Europe can never change, what gives you the right to judge. For the record I have not judged America in this topic, I simply listed a number of points of view I believe people share about the U.S. And I feel sympathy for the men who died in the civil war, things like this happen to all countries, you have learned from your mistakes because it has not happened since. P.S: To judge us through the number of wars we have had is a fallicy in my opinion simply because of the number of countries contained in Europe. The only enemy you ever had on your borders was Mexico and that was long ago so the situation is completly different

Except there won't be a next time, we have learned and have changed over here. Thats why no one in Europe wants a war, we have seen close up what it does, we have seen countries torn apart and split in two. We have seen young mens lives been taken away from them in a brutal and pointless fashion. The difference between the U.S and Europe is that it has happened on our soil. While I salute the brave American men who fought for freedom, it can never be the same for you.

I don't people see it as you helping people for altruistic (sp?) reasons, but simple to cement your'e position and be able to call upon favours later. Not that theres anything wrong with that, Im a firm believer in Real Politik, but I just wish you would own up to the fact rather than act the martyr

I would love to see Hussian go, the man is a maniac. But to say that the Bush Administration is turning this into a fiasco is an understatement. If you had told me on September 12th last year that one year from now that U.S and European relations would be at their lowest ebb for years I would have laughed. But thats what has happend, here in the U.K the government looks likley to split over the issue, Germany wants no part of it and I think Russia will not be keen either. Ands thats before the U.S gets into Iraq. I have no confidance that the U.S after defeating Saddam can stop the region from destabilising, and install a democratic government. There scoreboard on that hasen't been great since the end of WW2

I don't think your'e country is condemmed just for its past mistakes, people just feel that the U.S takes an arrogant " we don't give a shit " stance in its foreign policy. Don't get me wrong I applaud the American values of freedom and your constitution, however I think the idea of "Our way or the highway" is conterproductive. Not just to your relations to other countries, but to your foreign policy goals.

I think the problem is that after the Cold War, America lost its purpose. For 50 years you had an enemy to fight, and with that enemy gone, people analysed what the U.S had done in the name of freedom. You have to agree some of those actions were morally wrong, necessery in some cases but wrong. For example overthrowing the Allende (sp?) government in Chile and replacing it with that mad brute Pinochet. I think a lot of people believe that America betrayed its principals to win the Cold War, and that is why a lot of people distrust America. Thats what I think and believe anyway. In destroying your hated enemy you became like him in certain respects.

Yes Cartman2092 that is quite true, but it is what I meant when I said there needs to be change. There was a time hundreds of years ago when it was the middle east that was more enlightend than Europe. However after years of religious intolerance and terrible acts in the name of the Lord Christinaity had to take a long hard look at itself. While nowhere near perfect reforms in the system were made, although this has also lead to violence as well. As I have said earlier, this could be a make or break time for the reformation of Islam. I think it is possiable, but it will be a hard road and unnessecary actions from the U.S or any countries could be dangerous. Or I could be talking shit, but whatever

Loosecannon, I agree that she can make a lot of relative and interesting points, I just feel that the attitude is unwarrented on some occasions. God knows if she was banned I would not be half as interested in the current events folder.

Yes, but thats not what I asked, why do you care so little for the rest of the world?

I find it hard to believe that your leaders wouldn't care about the rest of the worlds opinion, why does it matter so little to you?

TEST

Agent of Oblivion, I would agree to a certain extent. However when Marney actually discusses something without losing the bap and starts flaming people she can make quite intelligant comments and really add something to a topic. However, she does let herself down a lot with her attitude.

I don't see anything on that list that you couldn't find in the Old Testament. However, unlike Christianity, Islam has not undergone any major changes in its structure (like say Lutherism). I do believe that Islam is in need of some change, however due to the structure of the clergy of Islam (i.e no centeral authority) it is harder to accomplish. In the middle ages, Islam was a fountain of knowledge, protecting the lost texts of Greece and Rome. However they haven't moved on from the middle ages in any major way. I hope that what is happening at the moment will force many muslims to look at there faith and see if they can bring it into a modern age. Attacking a major Islamic religous site will only throw any sort of progress back a thousand years, which is what i am against.

Okay, but what would you do about the international condemnation. Would you just ignore it? Would this not lead to more problems with countries beliving that the U.S is aloof and arrogant? Your standing in the international community would plummet. Or do you not think this is a problem?

Bomb who exactly, your own muslim citizens, the countries whou would condemm your actions (I meant countires like Germany, U.K, Japan you know your Allies). Who exactly?

O.K, heres a question for you Marney. The U.S attacks Mecca, said backlash from other countries and riots happens, what does the U.S do?

You seem to missing my point. What I am trying to say is that this would alienate moderate muslims whom support the war on terror and hate OBL. I have a hard time beliving that all muslims are secretly barbarians who are infiltrating are society to destroy us. They are now a sizable proporation of many countries population, and the civil unrest that would come with such actions would be vast. Plus you did not respond to my other thoughts in the post, do you really think the U.S administration would be prepared to risk such a backlash? I feel that the U.S would have never seen anything like it.

I have been reading these forums for quite a while, but nothing I have have read has made me feel the need to post unti now. Do you have any IDEA of what the politcal fallout would be if the U.S actually destroyed Mecca. Ever single muslim on the planet would be your enemy, moderates and extremist alike. The U.S would become a pariah nation in the eyes of the rest of the world, not even your closest allies could justify it. Im sure that you were just speaking in anger and I agree that the Saudi lawsuit is absurd. However, to do this to Mecca would be the most powerful attack on a religon ever (it is NOT a cult). It would be the same as attacking Rome if america had been attacked by Catholic Extremists, punishing the decent Catholics for the sins of the few. Even during WW2 the Allies would not bomb Rome or Paris because of the political fallout. Even Dr. Tom said in another post the war on terror is against Radical Islam, why the anger against the religon as a whole?