chaosrage

They could've, but do you really think that would draw better than UT/HBK? People were dying to see UT beat the hell out of Shawn. So much that they could put it on 3 different PPVs and nobody would complain about it. Bret had been doing the same thing since Wrestlemania too, while Shawn's character was new and interesting.

Yeah, but what else could he do? A match with Austin would be about the only thing that could draw as much as that and he was out or fighting with Owen.

He did turn around and say he could afford it though, maybe because business was going up. And Shawn vs UT was just a bigger draw of a match than anything Bret was doing at the time. I think Bret saw he was getting phased out of the WWF. It's nobody's fault, he just wasn't the top guy anymore. The fact that he left and it didn't dent the ratings proves it. He could've stayed, but he would have to start putting more people over and take a lesser role. I think Vince tried to get him to take the WCW deal because he realized there wasn't much left for Bret to do in the WWF, and he would be getting paid twice as much in WCW. Besides, he hated the WWF's new direction they were taking anyway.

Goldberg wasn't just a stiff worker. He gave him 3 concussions in one match! That would have probably ended anybody's career.

Right, except for the part about Vince ending his career. Goldberg did that.

Attitude Era was definitely around in early 97, with Bret swearing on live TV and needing to have sensors. Earlier than that too I guess, late 96 was Pillman pulling a gun out on Austin. I'd say it started in KOTR96 and lasted until Russo left. Austin pretty much defined the entire Attitude Era. I can't believe some people are saying it started after DX, that makes no sense.

If it wasn't for Montreal, he might've been around until WM. But that's still long before Owen died.

How did he fuck Bret over besides Montreal? He gave him two world title runs his last year and had him involved in all of the biggest angles. With him usually coming out the winner.

According to Meltzer, Vince told Bret something had changed and he actually could afford to pay him his whole contract. But, before he agreed to stay, Bischoff had offered him something that in his own words "would have been insane not to be taken". Bret, not being insane, went.

I say we start another 8 page thread on it. What do you guys think? That's obviously the apology he was talking about. He even said as much. It was supposed to swerve the crowd. Wow, he answered his own damn question. If it was meant to be a slap in the face to him, they would've tried to justify it one more time. They would've said Bret was supposed to do this, but because he didn't, they had to do what they did. That didn't happen. All Shawn did was tell the crowd to get over it. Okay, WTF? Wasn't the whole point to Montreal that he was leaving? He made the choice to go to WCW. Now he's the one trying to rewrite history.

Quoted because it's so dead on people need to read it twice.

Again, not too much of one since business soared after he left. See, the problem with that is it was never discovered. Bret just assumed he was.

New catchphrase. That'll sell some t-shirts. Believe that.

Yeah, as sad as it is, it kinda makes Vince look like he knew he was talking about. Bret wasn't worth the money he was paying him. Actually, according to that site, Vince didnt throw him out. He told him he couldn't afford what he was paying him, and let him look around to see what WCW offered. Then, he came back to Bret and told them there was a change and now they could afford it. But a day later, Bischoff offered a $3 million deal, and Bret didn't like what WWF had planned out for him, so he took it.

Bret was better at scientific wrestling. But Shawn was more well rounded.

I know, I didn't say he wanted to leave. I said he wanted to forfeit the title so he could leave undefeated. That was the plan. No one looked more credible than Bret in 97. He won all the time, including when he was heel, the only time he ever lost was when he got screwed. You'd think that would be enough for him. I mean, how could you have a better year than that? For all the times Canada won, I can't see what the big deal is about letting Canada down ONE time and losing to HBK on his way out. USA was let down a whole bunch of times. Yes, he agreed to job to other wrestlers, but nobody else was ready or it wouldn't make sense for anyone else to be champion at the time. Vince shouldn't have to rearrange his program because one of his workers holds a grudge against another one of his workers anyway. Vince doesn't owe him anything. He did as much for Bret as Bret did for him. In Bret's case, there wasn't much at stake at all. Just Bret's pride and ego. With McMahon, it was his company that WCW was burying. So I think he was well within his rights to do whatever he felt he had to do. It's not bias either. If Shawn had forfeited the title after he won it in October, I would have hated him for it. Bret wasn't a heel in Canada. It was only Michaels that was a heel everywhere. It was all part of the whole "shades of grey" thing, something that made 97 one of the best years ever. Of course if this was happening now, they would try to double turn them and get Bret to say Canada sucks or something. And I don't think he was trying to force Bret out of his company yet. A lot can happen in two months. The Canada/USA angle lost steam quickly. Bret Hart was the champion but he wasn't even main eventing PPVs. I guess Vince didn't think Bret was worth the money he was paying him anymore. According to the documentary, Bret knew it would happen the day Shawn turned heel. He knew he would take his spot. That's why he was all depressed when he won the title. Meh, McMahon/Austin was just the icing on the cake. Ratings were slowing going up for almost a year.

Nobody KNOWS for a fact that he wasn't hurt. You can guess all you want, but thats all you're doing, guessing. Bret was even starting to believe Shawn until he came back early. Of course it couldn't have just healed fast or anything. It's shawn. Yeah, he could've. But, austin was already becoming the biggest star since Hogan. It wouldn't have made any sense for him to win the title at anything but the biggest show with a ton of build up. Now that's a bunch of bullshit. They were heels, and Shawn easily replaced Bret as the #1 heel in the company. Something also made the ratings jump 2 points from September to March. It couldn't have been all Austin because he was just doing the same things he did all year long. Austin/McMahon hadn't started yet.

1. Choken One owned this entire thread on page 1. 2. Shawn really never said he apologized. What he said was he would always be sorry the situation HAD to happen. He followed that up by saying he was even more sorry that people in Montreal have no lives. How in the world did people interpret that to be an apology? That's about like saying "too bad" is an apology. Michaels acted like he was about to in the beginning, but you know that's just the usual HBK swerve interview. He did the same thing when he pretended like he was going to retire the world title. I think the closest you'll ever get to hearing him say it is him saying that he doesn't know if he would do it again if he got a second chance. 3. Bret's a bitch. He was on his way out of a company struggling to stay alive and he wanted to retire the belt and go on to WCW as the undefeated WWF champion. It's not like he was ending his career. That might have been different. He despised Shawn, but so what? He was leaving! Everybody jobs on their way out. Yet even if he wasn't leaving, the storyline was clearly calling for him to lose. Bret had come out on top the whole year. He beat Austin every chance he had, he won Canadian Stampede, he won the flag match on RAW, he won another one at the PPV, he beat the Patriot, he beat UT for the world title. By November, the Canada/USA angle was dying down, and DX was the new hottest thing. Nobody cared about the flag match at Bad Blood, people cared about Hell in the Cell and Stone Cold. So wasn't it about fucking time for Canada to lose for once? Fuck bret.

I agree. Linda admitted he was a disappointment anyway. They can't give a disappointment the world title, can they? He shouldn't even get the match honestly. Give it to Foley. I don't know. It makes Shawn sound like a cripple. It would do more for Chris if they played it up like HBK never lost a step, and THEN he were to make him tap.

Sounds fine except for Kane beating RVD and Jericho retiring Shawn. Why is it a retirement match? They haven't brought up his back in a long time, and he seems to be just as healthy as he used to be. Plus he's only a few more years older than Jericho! You left out Mattitude. If Eddy wins the title, he has to fight Tajiri at SS.

He got the same kind of rub Austin got from being beat totally clean by Bret at Survivor Series. Just being in there with Shawn and treating him like he's about on the same level as him is a push. Winning and losing isn't that big of a deal. I mean, last night he won his match against Jindrak and he looked like crap. About the only move he got in was the low blow. Submitting doesn't help out Jericho because he got his ass kicked the entire time. However when he was with HBK, he came out looking the best he looked in about a year, even though he didn't win.

I'm glad he didn't cheat at WM. He's not a dominant heel, but he's still serious about himself. He wanted to prove and still should want to prove that he's better than Michaels, so he didn't cheat or try to get Christian to help. I still think even though he lost, it helped him out a lot. It's just not following through with it that hurt him. It's not as if Shawn hit his finisher and then waited 20 seconds to pin him. Chris dominated the whole match and HBK's win came out of nowhere.

Yeah, he apologized for doing what he had to do. Just like he apologized last night for Canadians not being able to get on what their lives. What I wanna know is what the hell is the point of the match now? The whole point before was he wanted to get revenge for Canada. But at the end, he doesn't give a shit about Canada. Even if that somehow made sense, the turn would still be retarded because it made them both heels. Instead of cheers when Chris goes to Canada now, they'll have the crowd not knowing how to react and just be confused and bored. Good job. If they only wanted to hype the match up, Shawn could have backed out which would make sense because he apparently doesn't think much of Montreal anyway.

He was in Ready to Rumble!

Not to make the thread go completely off topic or anything, but Bret/Shawn definitely was set up to go 60 minutes. It was different from all their other matches.... because they were pacing themselves. McMahon and Lawler said what was happening. If that's not enough, before the match Bret even told us what he was going to do. He said he was gonna let Shawn fly all around the ring and wear himself out and wait for him to make a mistake. Then, when Shawn was going all out trying to make up for the first mistake, he would make another mistake. By that time it would be all over. Shawn of course would have wanted to catch Bret off guard. So he took it to Bret's level instead, something that Bret probably wouldn't have thought shawn was capable of. That's why it starts with wear down holds, builds up to other moves, and they don't do their usual stuff until the end. As far as selling goes, Bret sold while Shawn was working on him. Like he would be in the middle of a comeback and he would grab his shoulder and fall down in pain. After he was in control for 5 minutes though, he stopped selling it simply because it hadn't been worked on for awhile. There's no reason to think he just didn't recover. Does selling always have to factor into the finish? Shawn tried to take Bret out with his arm, and he failed at it. Kinda like how Bret worked on HBK's neck for the first 20 minutes, but when he took the huge back bump to the floor, he changed to his back for the rest of the match. I liked going for the tie too because it made it seem like they really wanted it. So bad they were determined to not get pinned at all. And they were strong enough to go all the way to a hour, essentially the whole point to the gimmick. They just wouldn't look as tough if Shawn pinned Bret with a DDT, or Bret pinned shawn with a roll up. All that would do is make them look like they had no business attempting to try to go that long in the first place.