chaosrage

Yeah, he only gave Jericho one of the best matches in his career, and had the best match in WWE since Benoit/Angle. But that shouldn't really count for anything.

The thing about that is in 96, Bret was at the tip-top of the company. A feud with Austin could only do good things for Austin. Angle isn't that far removed from a mid carder himself. He's going to have to pretty much squash guys like Cena to cement himself at the top, like Hart did from 92-94. He needs a run like that. Now that he's serious and he should be coming back as a face, there's no reason he shouldn't have one.

I can't see Brock holding the title until WM, and I definitely can't see Benoit ever beating him for it, especially with how they're treating him now. So what else can they do? Why not have Angle/Brock for summerslam? They can both be face. The storyline practically writes itself, they both want to see who is the better wrestler; however at WM because Angle had neck problems, it didn't tell us anything. We know they respect each other from the ending to that match, so a team at the same time wouldn't be too far-fetched. And WM is still fresh on everybody's minds. It would let Angle hold the belt until WM next year, giving him his first real respectable title run. Hey, they sound like they're serious about him with the videos. Maybe he would lose it to Benoit even, but that's probably hoping for too much. How long can they have a show with just two main eventers though, both on the same side? Of course this will all be for nothing when he comes back tonight and tries to run over Brock with a car.

It didn't make it worthless. The whole point to the ironman match was to show that they were in fact ironmen, that they could go an hour. If it wasn't for the ironman concept, they wouldn't have any reason not to go all out in the beginning instead of playing it cautious like they did and trying to wear each other down. It's different from other matches, it tries to be more real, that's why so many people love it. Anyway, I don't think I'd be able to take it seriously if Shawn and Bret pinned each other 5 or 6 times. I mean, this is the biggest match of Shawn's career, the moment he's been waiting his whole life for, how would it look if he got pinned with something like a clothesline or even submitted in the sharpshooter? The same goes for Bret, how often did he get pinned clean? Going all the way showed that they had the stamina to do it and also how much it meant for the both of them. Now for HHH/Rock, it was alright, but it made them look weak. When they use long wear down holds in the middle of the match, like someone else said that doesn't make me feel like they're building to anything like HBK/Bret was, it feels like they're just stalling because they're tired. Ross and Lawler made sure to tell us about a hundred times that the longest either one of them had been in the ring was 30 minutes. Then why do it? They could have did it in 30 minutes, took out all the brawling, the stalling, and sped up the action a little bit more and it would have been better. And it wouldn't change the entire match around like it would have for HBK/Hart.

Benoit, 2002. Bringing him back as a heel. WTF was that?

I think it has a lot to do with being just something people weren't expecting. When people think HBK, they think of high flying and fast paced action, and they didn't get it. But it would be stupid of him to try to do that for an hour. Instead, he basically turned into Bret. They tried to make it real, the way that you would expect a real match of that kind to be. They didn't even get into their usual routines until close to the end. If Bret had sold the arm like it was falling off, I don't think too many would complain about the restholds. But you have to just appreciate what they were going for. Bret without an arm takes away pretty much everything he does in the ring. Just weakened, it'll make it harder to apply holds.

About Austin/Bret, I'm glad it wasn't for the title. It didn't need it. If Bret had it, that would take away his whole motivation for wanting to beat Austin. The match wouldn't have been anywhere as good without Bret losing his last chance at it and throwing a temper tantrum the week right before. Fans probably wouldn't have turned on him and it wouldn't have had that memorable ending. Keeping the title away from Bret was the best thing they could've done. He had proved himself the best at every chance he got. Yet, he still couldn't make it back to the top. He beat Austin clean at the Survivor Series, tossed him over the rope at the Royal Rumble but got cheated out of the win, won the final four clean once again by beating Austin, had Sid beat the next night (Austin hit him with a chair when the Sharpshooter was locked in), had Sid beat AGAIN in the cage until UT slamed the door on his face, and finally beat the living crap out of Austin at WM making him pass out. Bret never changed and had every right to be bitter. If he was in a title match though, there wouldn't be anything to be bitter about. Soooo much different than normal heel turns, with the heroic face changing suddenly overnight into a weak cheating coward. That's gotta be the best booked storyline ever in wrestling.

I don't know. I watched it looking for things people hate about it, such as stalling, and I honestly don't see it. They used a lot of holds in the beginning, but none of them were on for long. Each one got a quick reversal. They wrestled cautious, but that's to be expected, isn't it? It wouldn't make sense to go all out in the beginning. They had to be more apprehensive and try to pace themselves through the match. Maybe it's just me, but it gets better every time I see it.

Best Match and Main Event: HBK vs Hart Worst: Taker vs Sid

Any time the fans see someone they like win, I think naturally they're going to stick around more than when someone they hate leaves on top every single week. As for Jericho/Benoit, well they dominated most of that match and not only won totally clean, but they also took out HHH. For about a month, they WERE on top. They won a 30 minute TLC, got to squash Big Show and Rhyno, made Austin and Vince's lives hell, and came inches from taking the world title. You're right, it would just be a bump, like Jeff was a bump. I'm not saying it would be the greatest thing ever to have Flair win or it would change the whole company around or whatever, just something that would be nice to see with no real reason not to do it. For a few minutes, a lot of people thought Taka could win. The crowd was gasping after the close falls, and most on the net said that he was coming so close it looked like they might give it to him. You didn't get that for Hurricane. Or Booker. The crowd was quiet for everything they did up until the end. This board was quiet because it was obvious he was losing. In October when RVD was going for it, there was doubt, but there was still some hope. Fans get a little more apathetic every time it happens. As long as you save the matches that people really want to see for the PPV, there's nothing wrong with giving title matches on free TV. Just because there's no Nitro doesn't mean they should put on less quality. People can still leave if the shows are boring and predictable. One or two title changes a year on free TV is okay, enough to let people know that it can happen. And I think HBK did break up the motonony for a little while, but that was a long time ago. HHH has been through a lot of wrestlers since then. Who in the hell would order a PPV when the challenger isn't even sure if he'll fight or not? Besides, you have to remember that Flair is still a heel. He needs something to make the people get behind him. It's much better the way they did it, with Ric going back to HHH and telling him to stop whining, because he wrestled thousands of times hurt. That he's not laying down for anybody anymore, and to be at his best because he's coming for him. Except this is something the fans actually wanted to see, and it made sense. That's what I'm talking about. They built up an intriguing storyline from scratch in one night, and had the opportunity to deliver something even better but they didn't. One night there's nothing, and the next Ric is going for the title. If he would have won it, and had the end with all the wrestlers showing him respect on TV, and let's say you're a huge Flair fan, and you missed that show, you're going to feel like an asshole when you hear what happened. Even if the writing got better, people would still miss some shows and just watch the recaps. Instead, it needs to feel like every show could possibly be something awesome and you'll really miss out if you don't watch. Of course that doesn't mean it has to be booked like Russo, but a few surprising shows every now and then is good.

It's pointless in the sense that it doesn't change the title scene, but it makes for interesting TV. Jeff's win kept the crowds watching until Jericho and Benoit finally came along and beat him convicingly in the tag match, blowing the roof off the building. It didn't hurt HHH or the belt at all. Here's another one, when the Rock beat HHH for the title in 2000. It didn't really put a halt to HHH's reign, what it did was give everyone a break from it. If he had beat Foley for 3 months, and then went and beat Rock for another 3 straight months, people would eventually stop caring. You have to make them believe that the title CAN change. When HHH fought Taka and Jericho in 2000, people actually thought it could happen. Booker T and Hurricane now? No chance, and they all knew it. When's the last time the title changed on a RAW even? Why should they care about title matches on free TV when it never changes? You see, I think it's better without build up. If they had built it up for a long time, and then only given him a week title run, the fans would REALLY be jerked around. And if HHH had weeks instead of say, 20 minutes to prepare for a match with the nature boy, that would be devastating. It would say that even though HHH is supposed to be the best, he clearly isn't as good as a way past his prime 50 year old Ric Flair. It's a lot more believable for him to lose because he wasn't ready or wasn't taking him seriously. Again, a one night storyline and conclusion would tell everybody that you have to watch every night because you have no idea what could happen. The kind of feeling the shows had from 97-late 2000. That's what they need more than anything.

House show audience? PPV audience? What are you talking about? I said HHH would get it back in a week. Whoever dethrones HHH should be someone new and fresh, but this wouldn't be doing that. I look at it the same way I look at Jericho beating HHH for the title in the match that never happened. It didn't set HHH back or somehow make people forgot all about those months he had the belt. It just made it seem like it was possible that HHH could be beat, and gave Jericho a good moment. It's the same with Jeff Hardy and HHH over the IC belt. Do you think that win and squash suddenly put him over HHH or all of the better wrestlers, or did it just give him a fluke win and a short IC run that didn't really mean anything? The funny thing is I've never been that big on Flair. But I think it's something that the crowd wanted to see, and I think a title change would help take some of the staleness out of the shows. People are sick of HHH with the strap, and like I said he's probably not losing it for another three months. Well look at the situation now, where the only viable contender for the title is Nash, someone the crowd couldn't give two shits about. They watched RVD, Steiner, Booker T, and Hurricane lose, get buried, saw HHH run through the entire roster; it's getting to the point where they know there's no chance of him losing so why bother geting worked up over anybody he fights? Just for a week, this would've mixed things up a little. Around WM, HHH had the excuse that he wanted Booker to have a title reign that meant something, which was his reason for not losing the title. He said he didn't want to give it to him and take it right back. Flair doesn't have that problem. He doesn't have anything to lose. He's old but apparently he can still work, cause it was a decent match last night. I don't find it too hard to believe that a motivated Flair could pull out a win over a sore caught off guard HHH expecting a night off. In a straight up fight, no, but if he's going after the legs and cheating, maybe, if he was as good as JR, Shawn, and HHH himself said he was last night. The fans didn't seem to have a problem buying it.

I don't think it would be a waste since HHH would just have got it back the next week. What would it hurt? HHH would still be on top of the world. Flair would've just been motivated and had one last good night. More importantly than that, it's something the fans wanted to see. Why can't they go home happy for once? What would it have done? It would've broken up the motonony of HHH as champion and told the fans that anything can happen, that things can change, even though it's not really true. It'd give fans hope that someone could take down HHH, and keep them excited during the main events. He's had that damn title a year, and you know he's going to have at least until August. They could've given everybody a break and also set something up for next week.

He's already had two shows since WM. And if he wasn't healthy, why would he be wrestling house shows? Maybe Shawn was just testing himself, and since he didn't have any problems, he'll be back full time.

Great post. The main problem above all else is there needs to be a change in top stars. Nobody wants to see the same thing over and over. It's like WCW in 98. Probably half of their main eventers were proven to be draws, but people wanted to see something new. The only huge attractions WWF had were Undertaker and Austin, but they still conquered in the ratings. You'd think that would have sent a message to Vince. That it doesn't matter who you bring in, if the storylines are intriguing and fresh. But it didn't. Look at last monday. RVD's getting cheered louder than Goldberg when he can't even make PPVs and he's stuck in a crappy tag team division with 3 teams. So what do they do? Make him lose. Clean or not, what good could come from that? If anyone in WWE had some sense, RVD would be dominating like HBK in 95 or Stone Cold in 97. And even though I defended Shawn going over Jericho at WM, ending a show with a 40+ year old can-barely-walk-to-the-ring Nash powerbombing Chris is the opposite of what should be happening. Angle's got the talent in the ring and on the mic to be one of the biggest names in the company. But he didn't get the Bret Hart or the HHH push. He didn't get the long reign beating credible oppoents week after week month after month clean, but there's no reason why he shouldn't have. Jericho, Benoit, and Angle should already be on the level that Bret was in 94. That would make the path open for wrestlers like RVD, Guerrero, Cena, Lesnar, Mysterio, and Edge to move up. It's not enough for it to be entertaining, it needs to be different. I know, it's a huge no shit to us and it's been said a million times. So why can't the WWE figure it out? What happened to the writers in 97-00?

I thought about that watching the old clips of Jericho doing HBK's moves. Would Jericho really want to put himself over his idol at the biggest show of the year? That's probably more of a factor than anything else.

If Shawn was retiring, it wouldn't make sense for him to go over. But as we can see from the end of the match, the feud isn't over. In fact, it's just starting, it's their first match and jericho is more pissed than ever. If they can keep wrestling on this level, why not? Would it be better if Jericho would have won this match but lost the matches after it? Then the board would be complaining about shawn taking his heat back. Hey, Jericho looked great tonight, and in the long run he'll probably prove himself to be better and might even retire him. Everybody here puts way too much meaning into who wins and who loses. Just because you lose a match doesn't mean you come out looking worse than when you came in. Remember that Stone Cold lost every match he ever had with Bret Hart (except for a dq). It still MADE him into a main eventer, for simply going toe to toe with him for months and months. Along those same lines, I think Jericho definitely benefited more than Shawn tonight despite not winning. Jericho dominated most of the match, kicked out of the superkick, hbk showed that he respected him at the end, plus the feud is most likely continuing. It's not like HHH wrestling Jericho last year in what was essentially a squash match, or going for the title/defending the title, then just moving on to bury the next guy in line.