The Thread Killer

I was talking about Mike's bleeding vagina (I'm guessing you are yakking about Obama). So yes, I will enjoy it... for the next 4-8 years. Serves him (and you) right. Actually, I was talking about the whole gang. Hey I'm one of the gang there, and I couldn't care less who is President...same with a bunch of us. The Pit is a big place and not everybody cares that much about politics. Just like not everybody here hates vagina. Wait, bad example.

When Angle-plex and I "invaded" WDI Dave Dymand named him Agnes. I started the "Ban Agnes" thing as a joke and it took off. That's Dymond, hippie.

Well, I've been going there a lot longer and lot more frequently I assume. That is two examples I gave you over who knows how many years I've been going there.

You never got to meet some of the treats I did then. There used to be quite the community of dudes sleeping out front of that store in sleeping bags. Maybe they thought people who were buying books must have money. A highlight was when one of them who was drunk or fucked up on something yarfed all over the sidewalk, about half a foot in front of my girlfriend, who had to perform quite an acrobatic leap to avoid stepping in it. Or the old black guy who claimed he was a Viet Nam vet (from Toronto?) who used to yell insults at people as they exited the store...but left people going into the store totally alone as if he couldn't see them. I once gave him a few bucks and asked him if he remembered me and him serving together in Nam, we were in the same Platoon. He swore he remembered me, and I believe him. Good times.

Why are you going to the World's Biggest Bookstore? I was there last weekend doing my Christmas shopping, and was happy to see that they had done something to scare off the homeless crackheads who used to sleep in front of it, harassing the customers.

Somebody should start a thread for people older than 35. Although I guess not many people would post in it.

To be honest, it was a forced decision. Giant Baba (who was the owner and booker of AJPW) was forced to create a new generation of stars. During the late 80's, the two biggest native Japanese stars in All Japan were Jumbo Tsuruta and Genichiro Tenryu. In 1990 some eyeglasses company decided to start their own wrestling company, "SWS." (Super World of Sports.) They lured Tenryu away from All Japan, and Tenryu took some some other AJPW guys with him...Yatsu, The Great Kabuki, etc. That left a dent in the AJPW roster and a hole in the Main Event scene. (As a side note, SWS formed a short lived alliance with the WWF. They co-promoted a couple of shows in Japan, and Tenryu and Kitao even wrestled in a Royal Rumble and got a title shot at Demolition if I recall correctly. They also had a big controversy when Hogan was supposed to wrestle Tenryu in a big show, but Hogan refused to put Tenryu over, so they had to change the Main Event to Hogan & Tenryu vs. The Road Warriors. That match is on the LOD DVD that WWE put out a couple of years ago. Despite working the WWE, SWS never took off, and it went under. AJPW ended up being much better off in the long run. Tenryu ended up starting his own promotion called WAR, and you can read a whole bunch about that in Chris Jericho's book "A Lion's Tale.") Baba (with Jumbo's advice I have read) picked out some of the best young talent from the roster. Tiger Mask, Kawada, Kobashi, Taue, Kikuchi, etc. They decided to do something pretty much identical to the angle that TNA is doing right now with the Main Event Mafia vs. the younger generation. Tiger Mask unmasked, revealing himself to be Misawa, and started a stable of sorts with the other younger guys. Jumbo had other veterans, most notably Masa Fuchi flock to his side. The two sides engaged in a series of AWESOME Six Man Tag Matches, and Tag Matches. The key to the whole angle was when Misawa scored a massive upset on June 8, 1990 over Jumbo. That match pretty much made Misawa and set the table for the rivalry. Now if your question is why Baba picked Misawa out of all the younger guys to lead the charge? I heard Terry Funk say in an interview (Funk used to be the foreign booker for AJPW although he wasn't there when this happened, he did know Jumbo very well) that Baba and Jumbo felt Misawa was the most well rounded of all the kids, the most mature, and he had the most potential to handle the pressure of the push. Kawada is awesome, but I am not sure if he was ready in 1990...he improved a hell of a lot from 1990 to 1993 or so in my opinion. Same with Kobashi. Kobashi had his breakout year in 1994, if you ask me...he had some wicked matches that year, including an all time classic against Stan Hansen. The only guy who was capable and ready to have that kind of match (06/08/90) with Jumbo was probably Misawa. He had the skills, and the maturity. Kawada and Kobashi certainly caught up to him, and in some cases maybe even surpassed him, but Misawa was definitely the right man, in the right place at the right time when Tenryu took off.

We actually had a talk about this topic over at DVDVR a while back, the thread is HERE. It includes a list of the best matches in the feud and some people give their input.

Saying that Misawa vs. Kawada is the greatest feud of all time is a controversial statement, and I would agree that a convincing argument could be made either way. For me it boils down to a couple of things. Firstly, it was a story that was told over years, not between two PPV's. Secondly, as Timmy said...the matches were beyond intense and there were so many variations, tag matches, six mans, and singles matches. It was also a chase for Kawada, not just to beat Misawa but to beat him for the Triple Crown, be viewed as the better wrestler, and get out of Misawa's shadow. Awesome stuff.

Misawa/Kawada is the greatest feud of all time. Misawa and Kobashi just put on an awesome series of matches over the years for the Triple Crown and GHC. Mostly the TC.

You know what? I don't disagree that Jumbo and Kawada are both better workers than Misawa. I would say that Jumbo would go higher on the list of all time greats too. I probably enjoy Jumbo, Kawada and Kobashi's matches more than Misawa's (although Misawa is in most of their great matches) but I think that on the "all time" list, Misawa goes higher than Kawada and Kobashi, based on a lot of different criteria. What I object to is not somebody stating their opinion, it's just throwing a name out there of an established great worker, and then not backing it up with any arguments or facts. I could say "John Cena Sucks" and get people to agree with me, but unless I say WHY I think he sucks...who cares?

I don’t have to respect your opinion, dumbass. That's not the law. If you say something stupid, it doesn’t deserve any respect. You made a highly debatable statement and failed to back it up with any facts. I don’t even know why I am wasting my time explaining this to you, but here you go. I assume you know who Dave Meltzer is and what the Wrestling Observer is? In order to get voted into the Observer Hall of Fame, many fans run the candidates through something they call “The Gordy List.” It is a basic set of criteria used to judge the “greatness” of a particular professional wrestler. You claim that in your opinion, Misawa isn’t great. Let’s run him through the Gordy List and see how he stacks up. The Gordy List for Mitsuharu Misawa 1. Was he ever regarded as the best draw in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best draw in his country or his promotion? Since he wrestled pretty much exclusively in Japan, you can’t say that he was the best draw in the entire world…although he did headline the highest attended show in all of wrestling in 2005. However he was certainly one of the biggest draws in Japan throughout his career, and in AJPW and NOAH. 2. Was he an international draw, national draw and/or regional draw? Yes…maybe not internationally, but certainly nationally and regionally. 3. How many years did he have as a top draw? 18 years and counting. His first big Main Event was June 8, 1990 and he was in the Main Event of some decently drawing shows this year. 4. Was he ever regarded as the best worker in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best worker in his country or in his promotion? Due to the wealth of talent in AJPW he was considered one of the top three workers in that promotion during the 90’s and at some points he was probably the best worker in NOAH, especially during Kobashi’s absence. 5. Was he ever the best worker in his class (sex or weight)? Was he ever one of the top workers in his class? He was the top Junior Heavyweight in AJPW when he wrestled as Tiger Mask II, and he is a Five Time Triple Crown Champion…he ruled AJPW for most of the 90’s. That’s not even getting into his reigns as GHC Champion in NOAH. 6. How many years did he have as a top worker? From 1990 until 1999 or so, he was at the top of his game. 7. Was he a good worker before his prime? Was he a good worker after his prime? Yes. As Tiger Mask II he had some very good tag matches teamed up with Jumbo Tsuruta, and some very good matches against Kobayashi before he unmasked and started his big singles run. His last “great” singles match in his prime was probably his Triple Crown match against Kobashi in 1999. However, after his prime he still had a couple of solid singles matches, and a couple of notable tag team matches…especially the one in 2004 against KENTA & Marifuji with Ogawa as his partner. Then he had his match against Kawada in 2005…and hell, even his matches against Samoa Joe last October and KENTA in ROH at GBHIV last year weren’t awful…they just weren’t as great as he once was. I bet if somebody in North America put on matches like that now, they’d be called great…but this is Misawa and he had much better in his prime. 8. Did he have a large body of excellent matches? He was in what is almost universally called the Greatest Match of all Time on June 3, 1994. Then there are these: 5 Star Match (1985) vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi on March 9 5 Star Match (1990) vs. Jumbo Tsuruta on June 8 5 Star Match (1990) with Kawada and Kobashi vs. Tsuruta, Taue and Fuchi on October 19 5 Star Match (1991) with Kawada and Kobashi vs. Tsuruta, Taue and Fuchi on April 20 5 Star Match (1992) with Kobashi and Kawada vs. Tsuruta, Taue and Fuchi on May 22 5 Star Match (1993) with Kobashi and Akiyama vs. Kawada, Taue and Ogawa on July 2 5 Star Match (1993) with Kobashi vs. Taue and Kawada on December 3 5 Star Match (1994) with Kobashi and Giant Baba vs. Fuchi, Kawada and Taue on February 13 5 Star Match (1994) with Kobashi vs. Taue and Kawada on May 21 5 Star Match (1994) vs. Kawada on June 3 5 Star Match (1995) with Kobashi vs. Taue and Kawada on January 21 5 Star Match (1995) with Kobashi vs. Steve Williams and Johnny Ace on March 4 5 Star Match (1995) vs. Taue on April 15 5 Star Match (1995) with Kobashi vs. Taue and Kawada on June 9 5 Star Match (1995) with Kobashi and Asako vs. Kawada, Taue and Tamon Honda on June 30 5 Star Match (1996) with Akiyama vs. Kawada and Taue on May 23 5 Star Match (1996) with Akiyama vs. Steve Williams and Johnny Ace on June 7 5 Star Match (1996) with Akiyama vs. Kawada and Taue on December 6 5 Star Match (1997) vs. Kawada on June 6 5 Star Match (1997) with Akiyama vs. Kawada and Taue on December 5 5 Star Match (1998) vs. Kobashi on October 31 5 Star Match (1999) vs. Kobashi on June 11 5 Star Match (1999) with Ogawa vs. Kobashi and Akiyama on October 23 5 Star Match (2003) vs. Kobashi on March 1 9. Did he have a excellent matches against a variety of opponents? Yes. Although his greatest matches were against people like Kawada and Kobashi, he could have good matches against people of skill less than his, if he was motivated. This is a guy that has made Ogawa watchable in Tag Team matches. 10. Did he ever anchor his promotion(s)? Yes…he was the face of the Triple Crown in the 90’s, and he still is the face of NOAH along with Kobashi. 10. Was he effective when pushed at the top of cards? Yes. He, Kobashi, Kawada and Taue set records for sell outs at the Budokan. 11. Was he valuable to his promotion before his prime? Was he still valuable to his promotion after his prime? Yes his tag matches and undercard matches as Tiger Mask were a big part of All Japan in the late 80’s, and he is still a huge part of NOAH today despite being well past his prime. 12. Did he have an impact on a number of strong promotional runs? He deserves a large amount of the credit (although not all) for the glory days of All Japan in the 1990’s. 13. Was he involved in a number of memorable rivalries, feuds or storylines? Many people (like me) consider Misawa vs. Kawada to be the Greatest Feud of All Time. That is to say nothing of his Misawa and Company vs. Jumbo and Company feud which kicked off his Main Event years…and his matches with Kobashi and Taue on top of that. 14. Was he effective working on the mic, working storylines or working angles? That kind of thing is not as important in Japan, and I don’t speak Japanese…however I am led to believe that the interviews between he and Kawada were quite interesting and added to the rivalry. 15. Did he play his role(s) effectively during his career? Yes, he was the perfect face of All Japan Pro Wrestling in the 1990’s. He also played the upstart youngster against Jumbo’s cranky old man to perfection in the Misawa and Company vs. Jumbo and Company feud. 16. What titles and tournaments did he win? What was the importance of the reigns? AJPW All Asia Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Kobashi (1) and Yoshinari Ogawa (1) AJPW Triple Crown Heavyweight Championship (5 times) AJPW Unified World Tag Team Championship (6 times) – with Toshiaki Kawada (2), Kenta Kobashi (2), Jun Akiyama (1) and Yoshinari Ogawa (1) NWA International Junior Heavyweight Championship (1 time; Final champion) PWF World Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Jumbo Tsuruta Champion's Carnival Winner (1995, 1998) World's Strongest Tag Team League (1992) – with Toshiaki Kawada World's Strongest Tag Team League (1993, 1994, 1995) – with Kenta Kobashi GHC Heavyweight Championship (3 times) (First) GHC Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Yoshinari Ogawa 17. Did he win many honors and awards? Best Flying Wrestler (1985, 1986) Best Wrestling Maneuver (1985) Topé con Giro Feud of the Year (1990, 1991) vs. Jumbo Tsuruta Match of the Year (1985) vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi on June 12, Tokyo, Japan Match of the Year (1996) with Akiyama vs. Steve Williams and Johnny Ace on June 7 PWI ranked him # 2 of the 500 best singles wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 1997. Match of the Year (1998) vs. Kenta Kobashi on October 31, Tokyo, Japan Match of the Year (1999) vs. Kenta Kobashi on June 11, Tokyo, Japan Match of the Year (2003) vs. Kenta Kobashi on March 1, Tokyo, Japan 18. Did he get mainstream exposure due to his wrestling fame? Did he get a heavily featured by the wrestling media? Yes…he did and still does get a ton of press in Japan. My ex who lived in Japan knew who he was when she saw him, and she didn’t watch wrestling. 19. Was he a top tag team wrestler? Yes…and with several different partners. Jumbo, Kawada, Kobashi, and Ogawa 20. Was he innovative? He, Kawada and Kobashi pretty much invented the “King’s Road Style.” 21. Was he influential? See answer above. Wrestlers like Samoa Joe and Low Ki (and many others) freely admit they studied his matches. 22. Did he make the people and workers around him better? When he wanted to…yes. He has been accused of being lazy at times, but he can have good matches with less skilled opponents when he wanted to. 23. Did he do what was best for the promotion? Did he show a commitment to wrestling? Yes…especially in NOAH he tried to “make” several other wrestlers by putting them over. 24. Is there any reason to believe that he was better or worse than he appeared? Debatable, but not that I can see. So there you go. THAT is why I think Misawa is great. If you don't...fine. However explain WHY you don't, or don't make stupid statements. Or at the very least, if you're going to make stupid statements and not back them up with facts, don't cry like a little girl when people challenge you on that.

Judging from the looks of him lately, he probably got released for eating the entire buffet backstage during a show, leaving no food for anybody else.

Are you on crack? How can you possibly look at Misawa's career and not consider him great? He was on top of AJPW when they were putting on some of the best matches of all time, week in and week out. He had great matches, he was in what is probably the greatest feud of all time, he drew a ton of money...in what category is he NOT great?

Nobody likes you...you didn't know that? Your ideas are...not shared by everybody...to put it mildly. You are also not totally correct in your arguments. Having worked in the Correctional System in several different capacities, I can tell you without fear of contradiction that the average citizen does not care if prison deters criminals and their concern over rehabilitation is usually lip service at best. They want criminals to be punished and they want to be protected from them. I can guarantee you one thing, and that is that nobody serving time in a correctional facility ever committed a crime outside of the facility while they were inside. So in that respect, it's 100% effective. People can wax poetic about how prison is a school for criminals and how poor and underprivileged people are more prone to be in jail. That is certainly true in the United States, but not as much in the Canadian correctional system. Either way, it is unrealistic and a waste of time to think that the correctional system will ever change. Corrections will always be allotted enough tax dollars to house criminals and little else. Large amounts of money being spent on so-called "rehabilitation" programs in the correctional system will never happen, even if the NDP got into power. One of the few areas that the majority of people agree is on crime prevention. Any politician who publicly suggests increasing funding for prison reform is cutting their own throat. The public would rebel and the opposition would instantly suggest that the money be spent on more cops on the street. Besides, Canada's correction system DOES offer a good variety of rehabilitation programs, especially at the minimum and medium security level in the Federal system, and the entire Provincial system has quite a few programs...at least in Ontario. (Having only worked in Ontario, I can't speak for other provinces.) If you are doing time in Ontario, you can get your High School Diploma, undergo free Alcohol and/or Drug Treatment, and in the Federal system you can learn a trade...all on the nickel of the taxpayer. The Probation system and organizations like the John Howard Society provide counseling for criminals after their release back into society, and assists with job placement. However, having said this, the onus is on the individual to avail themselves of these services...if they just choose to do their time, get out and re-offend, that is their choice. I am sure you are familiar with the "nature/nurture" controversy if you have any sort of post secondary education. For every person who claims that criminals are "made" by society and "the system" there is one who will tell you that criminals are born with Anti-Social Personality Disorder, and cannot be rehabilitated no matter how many programs you offer them or how much money you throw at them. Look at the recidivism statistics on Sex Offenders...it will scare the hell out of you and make your skin crawl. Even the most generous stats suggest that over 90% of all criminals who commit sex crimes will re-offend. The "nature" argument suggests that deviant behavior is a psychological illness and that deviants need to be locked away to protect society. Either argument cannot be proven conclusively either way, and to claim that it can is intellectual arrogance. That would be the same Omar Khadr who is on video planting landmines to kill soldiers? Awww...poor widdle terrorist.

Oh. I thought somebody once told me he was born somewhere else and moved here. So I guess we can't have him deported then. Oh well.

Yeah, see the Liberal Party already tried that when they scrapped the useless Young Offender's Act and replaced it with the even more unless Youth Criminal Justice Act. All Harper is proposing is a return to what the YOA gave us, since the statistics are out and it proves what those of us who work with Youth Offender's already knew...the YCJA is a useless piece of legislation and is keeping dangerous kids on the streets. Scrapping the YOA and replacing it with the YCJA (which was so poorly constructed and worded that it had loopholes big enough in it to drive a truck through...which lawyers immediately did...which made it useless and eliminated the transfer to adult court clause due to it being a violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms) ALSO cost the taxpayers big time. No matter WHAT you do to deal with youth crime, it's going to cost the taxpayers. So THANK YOU Allan Rock and Anne McClellan. Who knew that introducing a new piece of legislation without barely bothering to consult people who actually WORKED in the field it affected would work so badly? And why do people who hold left wing viewpoints care about "the taxpayers" all of the sudden, when it supports the argument they're making...when normally they are all for spending tax dollars for social programs? And is it true that "cbacon" isn't even really Canadian? And why do I care? And who am I asking these questions to?

Yeah well, you were standing on the tube from my oxygen tank.

You remember me flaming you 7 years ago? What the hell did I say? Either you have a great memory or I said something pretty damn mean. Oh, and I've been here since...uh...well, I was here when all that nonsense with Sean Shannon changing the site to an article about rape happened...and I think the site was called Rantsylvania then...so I think it was 1999. Not that I really post here anymore. I think it was when all the WDI originals got banned (Witty Banter, can't remember who). Being a 16 year old dumbass then I tried to make by self look cool and "in" by reguritating the SK=Hitler stuff. And you let me have it, big time. Dont remember what was said, but it was like really long. Wish the blue board was still around, so I can see it. Don't know why I remember this, just thought it was a funny memory when I saw this thread. Well, my apologies if I said anything stupid. Like Bob said, I must have gone off on everybody at some point or another back then. Now I mostly just lurk. Typing takes a lot of effort.

You remember me flaming you 7 years ago? What the hell did I say? Either you have a great memory or I said something pretty damn mean. Oh, and I've been here since...uh...well, I was here when all that nonsense with Sean Shannon changing the site to an article about rape happened...and I think the site was called Rantsylvania then...so I think it was 1999. Not that I really post here anymore.

We looked at getting an Invision Board, seriously looked at it...but in the end we opted not to because to get a good version we would have had to pay for it. So we installed a phpbb board, but unlike that last incarnation of The Pit, this one seems to work well, there are no coding problems or bizarre broken HTML tags all over the place, and we have skins selected by the members, including several in our traditional green which seem quite popular. The new host and tech dude is adding features as requested and so far, so good.

They're not "mine" I think they belong to themselves. Oh and also...uh...what?

The Pit is not going to die or go away. It's already back, moved to a new location and all of the members who were at the old board are back there positing as if nothing happened. We lost the old posts, but gained a new host, new board, and the members seem happy with the skins, features, etc...so all in all this wasn't the end of the world as we know it. Some people who left after we switched boards a couple of months are even coming back, and all the drama may even end up getting us some new members. Hell, Boardum is already up to 6 pages. To quote Corky, life goes on.

Well I'm sold. That was a joke. The primary skin for The Pit in most of it's previous incarnations has been green, and a lot of people who don't post there seem to think that EVERYBODY who posts at The Pit is some rabid right wing lunatic, even though many of the posters there never even post in the CE folder.

The Pit will be back in a couple of days. Jingus and the other admins are discussing the where and how, but I own a site that I don't use, which has an old version of The Pit backed up on it. It might be with a new domain and it might be with a new look for the board...one that actually works maybe even...but it's not like The Pit is dead and gone, it's just down for a few days, and it will be back soon enough. There are too many people who want the place around (myself included) for it to disappear forever. And this doesn't have to be about some stupid Pit vs. TSM thing either...there is just a group of people who have grown accustomed to posting there that for whatever reasons don't want to post here. So for those people, and to give those who hated it so much something to hate, The Pit will be back...greener and more CONSERVATIVE than ever.