JRE

Yeah....Vince picked a really bad week to say that.

The deal was that adotpion agencies in the state need to file with the state for a license. To obtain the license- the agency must swear to oblige to all state laws....which, in MA includes a law against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I don't expect lawsuits from couples wanting to get married in churches that won't allow them to be an issue. Just plenty of other legal issues will pop up....here's a good section of an article on the topic: So. We'll see in time what goes down. This is not reason for rights to be restricted from gays- just reason for concern on the religious end.

But it's also nonsensical that everything God would say is in the Bible- given that 1) he cares about us, 2) society changes and new problems surface, and 3) The Bible has had so much added to it, taken away, and altered.

Well- technically speaking many Old Testament laws are repeated in the New Testament and the New Testament also references homosexuality. I feel the need to equip these posts with disclaimers that: the above is not support for gay marriage to be outlawed.

The Law of Moses...the laws in the Old Testament- are the old laws. They are not valid today.

I think we've found common ground here. Marriage needs to be separated in the eyes of religion and in the eyes of the law. Every step needs to be taken to protect the rights of both sides. That whole Boston/adoption thing wasn't a very promising event.

"One of the more retarded statements in this thread. This really illustrates how completely wrong people from that side of the argument percieve sexuality. You know, it's something 'bad' that people do rather than an aspect of a person. That's why its always interesting that so many high profile religious/conservative leaders get caught engaging in behaviors that they claim are deviant, and then can instantly "redeem" themselves by asking for forgiveness. Like Ted Haggard: 'I'm not gay, I've just fucked men for years.'" "Are all these middle aged couples, who have been in monogamous relationships for decades and want to get married 'experimenting?'" "I really feel sorry for gay people when I read stuff like this. I mean, how hard must it be to live your whole life a certain way, knowing that's just the way you are, and then have people tell you "oh, well you must be rebelling against your parents" or some stupid shit along those lines" Did I say that all gay couples were experimenting or rebelling? No. I didn't even mean to apply that to the majority of gay couples. Just meant it happens. And the parents thing was meant to be light hearted....sorry I struck a nerve. How many times have I said that gays should have rights in this thread? Sheesz. "Oh for God's sake. 2 people who happen to be the same gender going down to the courthouse and getting married is NOT going to 'threaten free religious worship and practice.' Book says no sex before marriage. People can legally have sex before they're married. Has that threatened free religious worship and practice? No. Book says you can sell your daughter as a slave. Laws say you can't. Has that threatened free religious worship and practice? No. So how is letting people of the same sex get married different than all the other laws that contradict religion?" Having sex does not compare to getting married. Marriage is a unique topic in that it is legal contract and very often a religious service. The daughter/slave things warrants no comment since this isn't a religion theology thread. EDIT: Just gonna throw this in again since it's really my only point: Now, when gay marriage becomes a civil right....and I do believe it will- there will be laws that protect the civil rights of gay couples (and rightfully so)...these laws will conflict with religious freedom....I think that is very clear. That's the only point I want to get across really. And I don't even mean to say that gay marriage should not happen because of that....I just feel it's unjust to think that religion is "against giving rights to gays just because it's a sin." They have other reasons regarding protecting civil rights for everybody.

I don't believe in a talking snake and I'm religious. I don't believe in talking clouds either. Two, I'm not an idiot for saying that people choose to be gay when they aren't really oriented that way. I am sure that most are homosexual because of genetics. I am not denying that. But I am also positive that some are living gay life styles based on social factors. I don't mean to offend anyone with that or deny snuffbox's really poetic words....I just kinda look at Hollywood and to me it seems apparent that a social influence is there. Nevertheless- arguing over this subject is not applicable to how they should be governed- as I believe that religious rights should be protected when they are obviously not based on genetics. I also know how marriage licenses work- being married. You get the license from the state and you take it to whatever courthouse or church you choose to get married by someone authorized to do so. What if a gay couple takes it to a church that won't marry them? There is a gay Mormon group. Ideally, a gay couple would just go to a place that would marry them- but we know there's going to be civil rights lawsuits and all of that.... Now, when gay marriage becomes a civil right....and I do believe it will- there will be laws that protect the civil rights of gay couples (and rightfully so)...these laws will conflict with religious freedom....I think that is very clear. That's the only point I want to get across really. And I don't even mean to say that gay marriage should not happen because of that....I just feel it's unjust to think that religion is "against giving rights to gays just because it's a sin." They have other reasons.

I don't think so. I'm sure there are many homosexuals that are simply oriented that way- yes. But a lot of the time people do make the choice to experiment..or...like...rebel against their parents. I dunno. As for the first question: look at the adoption situation- not the perfect example, but an example. The bishops could not continue the adoption service because their religious practices now violated anti-discriminatory laws. Where do many marriage ceremonies happen? Churches. People have priests perform marriage services. Are there religious homosexuals? Yes there are. So what if a church won't marry them? Suddenly this church will be violating the law too? For sticking to their beliefs? The LDS church members contributed significantly to the Yes on Prop 8 campaign. You know what the highest ordinance in the church is? Marriage. Marriage in their temples..the entering of which requires very strict moral standards in accordance with their beliefs. They'd be pissed if those temples had to be shut down, ya know? Next- tax exemptions and benefits will be taken away from churches that won't accept same-sex marriage. Here we'll have discrimination based on teachings of different churches. And then there's schools....which I guess is just kind of parents bickering because the definition of marriage will now be a union of two people instead of a union between a man and a woman.....simply conflicting with what students are taught in church and at home. It all might be a lot of bickering- but it would be unfortunate if such religious people were forced out of public schooling over the whole thing. This is all just brainstorming....I'm sure there's holes in the argument....but not enough to invalidate everything I just said. I dunno.... marriage is just very closely tied with religion and it creates the potential for all of these conflicts. This doesn't mean that the rights that come with marriage should not be available for gays.....so, I'll say again- government needs to provide a compromise that will give rights to gay couples without threatening free religious worship and practice.

Snuffbox, my argument is that a long-term effect of legalizing same sex marriage threatens religious freedom. What's needed is a compromise. I am against denying certain rights to individuals based on difference- just as you are. I understand that many in organized religion argue against gay marriage based on reasons that are discriminatory- I do not agree with any one being so blatantly hateful....but many in organized relegion are simply trying to protect their own rights to worship freely. Again- I feel because marriage is so closely tied to religion that long-term effects of legalizing same-sex marriage will threaten religious freedom. I want government to protect the rights of both sides. I hope you don't see anything hateful in that. Also, being black is not a choice. The other two are very debatable. Let's not get into that- I'll just say that at this point in life I cannot choose to not be religious....and not because of anyone but myself. The fact is that there are many religious US citizens AND many gay US citizens. And a lot of black citizens too.

The charity would have still been doing a great thing if they were to operate in accordance with the faith (just to make that clear- I'm saying the charity would be a good thing even if they only included husband and wife families....not only if they did that). After all, there are other adoption agencies with different organizations. But the law says they are discriminating. Suddenly the roles are reversed- religion is now looked down upon because of it's faith- which for millions of people is a very real thing- just as blacks have been looked down upon because of their skin color and gays have been looked down upon because of their sexual orientation. You can't take away gays, you can't take away religion. Freedom and rights is deserved by both. Marriage- is what puts religion and government in each other's way because marriage is as much of a religious practice as it is a legal status. Something needs to be put in place to ensure rights for gays without compromising religious freedom.

Well, shame on them then. I won't argue for the Catholic church.

Well...I don't want to talk about the Catholic Church- I am not of that faith and am happy to belong to a church with respectful leaders and solid doctrine. Regardless, their religion should not be the victim of prejudice for the action of certain individuals. I'm sure plenty of good is done by the Catholic church. But that's all beyond the point being made- that they were pressured to close because of practicing their beliefs.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/...ends_adoptions/ Just did a quick Google search.

This is correct. But rights of religious groups also begin to be challenged. A Catholic Charity in Boston had to shut down it's adoption service because the government challenged them for only placing children through their adoption agency into homes with a mother and a father. They were just doing what they believed in. I am for giving rights to homosexuals, but not for them being taken away from the religious.

If a state recognizes same-sex unions and heterosexual marriages as equal- this will be taught in school. It's inevitable. There are serious questions about religious freedom and separation of church and state to be considered. This concerns me- I don't want anyone's rights to be compromised- be it the rights of homosexuals or the rights of the religious.

Not much needs to be done with Kane- he's still really over. He can win matches and it doesn't hurt his opponents much. He can lose matches and it doesn't hurt him much. He's consistently entertaining in the ring. His character is usually stale outside of a few moments during the year (like last year at the beginning of the Mysterio feud)- but that's okay....he is still entertaining for the live crowds and I'd rather the creative team's efforts go else where. Just move him around the brands and he'll help whatever roster he is on.

Well, yeah- you're right that promo was part of this direction. I'm just glad it's progressed this way rather than continuing to build the match with bad in-ring promos. It didn't make sense to have wrestlers popular for fast-paced offense and high spots try to cut promos.

This whole WM doesn't seem to have a very "fun" atmosphere about it. So much of it is pretty dark. ...Maybe this is the reason for the WHC storyline?

The Matt/Jeff build has had a good turn around. I was afraid they would take the direction of Matt continually trying to force Jeff into the match, but Jeff being all emotional about it. Thankfully- they've just switched to Jeff being furious and destroying people in Extreme Rules matches. The WM match has some good potential now. They realized that Matt Hardy burning now Jeff's house and killing his dog was ridiculous....edited it all out....and seemingly revamped the feud to something better.

...and the lead singer of the Pussycat Dolls is singing the national anthem.

Seemed like Michael Cole was spitting out incorrect facts half the match...

Salt-N-Pepa- "Whatta Man" (d. "Seether," 23-8) Beck- "Loser" (d. "I Want It That Way," 21-10) Montell Jordan- "This Is How We Do It" (d. "I Don't Want To Wait," 27-4) Goo Goo Dolls- "Iris" (d. "Missing," 24-7) The Breeders- "Cannonball" (d. "Mmmbop," 21-10) Snoop Doggy Dogg- "Gin and Juice" (d. "Wicked Game," 24-7) Kris Kross- "Jump" (d. "Who Will Save Your Soul," 20-11) Dee-Lite- "Groove Is In The Heart" (d. "Inside Out," 22-9) Jamiroquai- "Virtual Insanity" (d. "Building a Mystery," 21-10) Warren G. (ft. Nate Dogg)- "Regulate" (d. "Livin La Vida Loca," 26-5) Notorious B.I.G. (ft. Puff Daddy and Mase)- "Mo Money Mo Problems" (d. "Kiss Me," 22-9) L.L. Cool J- "Mama Said Knock You Out" (d. "Genie In a Bottle," 19-12) Fiona Apple- "Criminal" (d. "End of the Road," 19-12) Weezer- "Buddy Holly" (d. "You Mean The World To Me," 26-4) U2- "One" (d. "Dreamlover," 22-9) Jay-Z- "Can I Get A..." (d. "Tearin' Up My Heart," 21-10)[/color] Nirvana- "Heart Shaped Box" (d. "Smells Like Teen Spirit," 16-15) Blink 182- "Dammit" (d. "All the Small Things," 21-10) Blur- "Song 2" (d. "Boys and Girls," 17-14) Stone Temple Pilots- "Interstate Love Song" (d. "Plush," 20-11) Smashing Pumpkins- "1979" (d. "Today," 16-15) Seal- "Kiss From a Rose" (d. "Crazy," 19-12) Cranberries- "Linger" (d. "Dreams," 21-10) No Doubt- "Don't Speak" (d. "Spiderwebs," 19-12) Alanis Morissette- "You Oughta Know" (d. "Ironic," 24-7) Green Day- "Basket Case" (d. "Good Riddance," 19-12) Oasis- "Wonderwall" (d. "Champagne Supernova," 20-11) R.E.M.- "Losing My Religion" (d. "Everybody Hurts," 20-11) Chumbawumba- "Tubthumpin" (d. "Bitch," 19-12) Tom Cochrane- "Life Is a Highway" (d. "Glycerine," 20-11) Third Eye Blind- "Semi-Charmed Life" (d. "All I Want," 23-8) Blind Melon- "No Rain" (d. "Jealous Again," 24-7)[/color] TLC- "Waterfalls" (d. "Cryin,'" 17-14) Soundgarden- "Black Hole Sun" (d. "My Lovin'," 22-9) MC Hammer- "U Can't Touch This" (d. "Ice Ice Baby," 21-10) Skee-Lo- "I Wish" (d. "In The Meantime," 22-9) Naughty By Nature- "O.P.P." (d. "Shoop," 21-10) DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince- "Summertime" (d. "The Freshmen," 20-11) 2Pac- "California Love" (d. "...Hit Me Baby One More Time," 22-9) Fugees- "Killing Me Softly With His Song"(d. "Wannabe," 23-8) Dr. Dre (ft. Snoop Doggy Dogg)- "Nuthin But a G Thang"(d. "I Do It For You," 21-10) The Verve- "Bittersweet Symphony" (d. "One Week," 22-9) Beastie Boys- "Sabotage" (d. "Good," 26-5) The Cardigans- "Lovefool" (d. "Two Princes," 16-15) The Offspring- "Self Esteem" (d. "Give Me One Reason," 21-10) Eagle-Eye Cherry- "Save Tonight" (d. "Runaway Train," 16-15) Semisonic- "Closing Time" (d. "Walking In Memphis, 24-7) Red Hot Chili Peppers- "Under the Bridge" (d. "Shine," 24-7)[/color] Every New Beginning Comes From Some Other Beginning's End Radiohead- "Creep" (d. "Mr. Jones," 23-8) Outkast- "Rosa Parks" (d. "Lump," 20-11) Pearl Jam- "Evenflow" (d. "Low," 23-8) New Radicals- "You Get What You Give" (d. "All I Wanna Do," 24-7) Pras (ft. Maya and ODB)- "Ghetto Superstar" (d. "One of Us," 24-7) Sinead O'Connor- "Nothing Compares 2 U" (d. "Counting Blue Cars," 23-8) Nada Surf- "Popular" (d. "I Touch Myself," 16-15) Faith No More- "Epic" (d. "Sex and Candy," 20-11) Guns N Roses- "November Rain" (d. "More Than Words," 26-5) Lisa Loeb- "Stay (I Missed You)" (d. "Tennessee," 19-12) Hootie and the Blowfish- "I Only Wanna Be With You" (d. "Santa Monica," 22-9) Ben Folds Five- "Brick" (d. "Flagpole Sitta," 20-11) Garbage- "I'm Only Happy When It Rains" (d. "The Way," 19-12) Gin Blossoms- "Hey Jealousy" (d. "Back That Azz Up," 18-13) Foo Fighters- "Everlong" (d. "What's Up," 25-6) Meat Loaf- "I Would Do Anything For Love (But I Won't Do That)" (first round bye)

I guess if Shawn has to miss Tuesday Bible study- Tuesday Bible study comes to Smackdown.

I agree about Matt/Jeff- they'll have to pull out a lot of tricks to keep it from just being the throw-away beginning of a series of ladder and cage matches we'll end up seeing in the next months PPVs.