CanadianChris

I would, but I know whatever I suggest, the writers will come up with something even stupider.

It's one thing to say it about someone you're about to face. It's quite another to say it about someone who's in a completely different promotion that you'll never face. HHH wasn't saying it to be a heel, he was saying it to put himself over everyone else, because he knows he can and won't be reprimanded. What an ass.

Marilyn. *marks out*

From his mailing list, presumably. I just got it myself.

Pfft. I wouldn't worry about someone with the mental equivalent of a rutabaga.

Bret v. HBK. They were doing ladder matches in Stampede way before that.

Carlin is amazing. I'm going to see him in October at the MGM Grand for the first time live...can't wait.

Denver - 30 pts. New England Buffalo Philadelphia Minnesota Cleveland Tampa Bay St. Louis Miami Baltimore Oakland Tennessee Jacksonville Indianapolis Pittsburgh Denver San Francisco

Brock/Angle III and it's in the middle of the card. Somewhere, Anglesault has wrecked his entire living room.

1. Why? 2. Leading to what? 3. Who cares? It's Coach.

There are more people posting in the non-existant webcast thread than in this thread.

Yeah, that whole section's worth a look. They get some really good discussions going over there.

All the pissing and moaning have made me bring something up... the Other Arena posted a definitive list of questions by which hall of famers should be considered. It was called the "Gordy List" because it was first used to discuss the marginal candidacy of Terry "Bam Bam" Gordy. Someone applied it to Shawn Michaels awhile ago, and here's what they came up with: --------------------------- 1. Was he ever regarded as the best draw in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best draw in his country or his promotion? Michaels was never the best draw in the world, nor the best in his country. He did have a very good house show run initially after winning the WWF Title, but it should also be noted that ratings and buyrates of the WWF fell behind WCW and Hogan at this time. In addition, WCW passed the WWF in house show attendence as well. He was the best draw in the WWF from Mania '96 through the rest of 1996. After that his drawing position becomes debatable. He was the attendence "draw" for Rumble '97 in Texas, but the buyrate for for his re-match with Sid on that show was far off of the prior year's. After that, Austin rose in the promotion and Hart was back, while the promotion was doing poorly overall. By the time the promotion was righted, Austin was the top draw. Michaels has a seven month run as the top draw in his company, with house show business doing very well before sliding, the buyrates doing very poor, and ratings doing poor. There was a reason why Vince was desperate to resign Bret in the summer and fall of 1996, and it was because business was sliding in the War. Michaels' drawing power in 1997 wasn't strong when facing Austin, Undertaker, Hart and Shamrock. He did a massive buyrate main eventing Mania '98, but Austin and Tyson were at the time given more credit for that, and history seems to have confirmed that was correct. 2. Was he an international draw, national draw and/or regional draw? Michaels wasn't a international or regional draw. His national drawing power wasn't strong, nor was it broad across the WWF's business model, nor was it sustained for a long run. 3. How many years did he have as a top draw? Michaels had pockets of top drawing power - seven or so months as a house show draw, a good buyrate here and there. Ratings were generally mediocre to bad on his watch. The "comeback" of the WWF starting during his last run with the title, but centering on Austin, Tyson, and McMahon then blooming with Austin and McMahon after Michaels was out of the picture. 4. Was he ever regarded as the best worker in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best worker in his country or in his promotion? There never was any consensus while he was active that Michaels was the best worker in the world. His prime years (1991-96) ran up against the like of Liger, Kobashi, Kawada and Misawa. You may find some people who thought he was the best, but the consensus overwhelmingly pointed at one of those four, and usually most of them being rated above Michaels in any given year. He was generally thought of as one of the best workers in the US, but it's harder to pinpoint going to the next level and a consensus existing of him being the best. He came up during the Flair Era, and Flair was generally thought of as the consensus best through 1992. In 1992 and 1993 Vader rode a strong tide of being throught of as the great american worker. By 1993 Eddie Guerrero was working in the US, by 1994 Benoit was working in the US, and by 1995 Rey Jr. and Psicosis were turning up on ECW TV after having worked in the US for some time prior to that. By 1996 and Michaels' run of strong PPV mains, Rey, Eddie, Benoit and Dragon were all working in WCW regularly. In 1997 Michaels was losing his smile and then having problems with Hart, spending a large amount of time out of the ring. Looking back at the WON and Torch worker polls, Michaels was ranked among the top US workers, but not really #1. Flair, Vader, Benoit and even Sabu (in 1994) finished above him. The consensus opinion seemed to hold back on putting him #1. As far as being the best in his promotion, he probably was the best worker in a very poor AWA. Hennig took the next step to being a excellent worker when he turned heel, at which point the Rockers were heading out of town for the first time. By the time they came back to the AWA, either Michaels or Hennig was the best worker in the company until they jumped. Once in the WWF, Shawn and Hennig probably worked harder night-in, night-out that any of the top workers in the WWF, at least until Flair showed up. Many workers, such as Bret, dogged it on house shows but cranked it up on PPVs. In contrast, Michaels tended to put on very good house show matches in addition to cranking it up on PPVs. Since Hennig was working singles matches to Michaels' tags, and often against very tough opponents like Hogan and Kerry Von Erich, one probably would rate Hennig above Michaels up to the injury in mid 1991. The old WON annual worker polls in those years seems to confirm this, as it had Hennig 24-12-5 in 1988-90, with Michaels 56-9-17. Overall Hennig was ahead in those years. Michaels #9 rating in 1989 appeared to tie into the Rockers' rivalry with the Brainbusters, which also was the year Arn rose to his peak position on the list. Flair came into the WWF soon after Hennig went out with the injury. Flair was rated one slot ahead of Shawn when the Poll moved over to the Torch in 1992. Flair was gone at the begining of 1993, and this seems finally to be Shawn's spot as the #1 worker in the promotion. Bret was the only other contender for the spot from 1993-95, and as indicated above, Bret as a rule dogged it on house shows while Michaels didn't. Mitigating this is (i) Shawn did take a decent amount of time off in those three years with the walk out and the beat-down, and (ii) Bret could get inspired on house shows when his position was challenged with the prime example being his good house show series with Yoko. But from 1993-95 it would be safe to say Shawn was the best worker in the WWF. 1996 is a tricky year for Shawn as he had the strong PPV matches, but now thought it was okay to dog the house shows once he got on top. His 6-7 minute matches with Vader on the house show circut were embarassments, as Vader truly wanted to work in them. That hardly was the only series that Shawn went through in a daze, saving his talents for the PPV match. But looking around the promotion there aren't any strong candidates to knock him off the throne. Foley did work quite a bit hard on the house shows, pulled a decent series of PPV matches out of Taker, and had the excellent PPV match with Shawn. Still, Shawn would be the safe pick here. In 1997 Michaels spent too much time on the shelf. In addition, he had subpar PPV performances against Sid and Austin that were entirely the fault of *his* commitment to the matches. One could argue that Shawn was the best worker in the AWA in 1986 and the WWF from 1993-96. Before or after those points is a bit more problematic. 5. Was he ever the best worker in his class (sex or weight)? Was he ever one of the top workers in his class? Michaels was never the best worker in his weight class. Someone like Flair, Hennig, Misawa or Kawada was always rated ahead of his. Michaels was one of the top workers in his class for a long run, probably 1986-96 with pockets of time off 6. How many years did he have as a top worker? "Top" means a top ten in the world worker for a year, or a candidate for a top ten slot in a year. There aren't 30-40 people who are candidates at the end of the year, but rather 6-7 people who were so good that year that they tend to be obvious choiced, then another 10 or so people who had top flight years was are candiadates for the other 3-4 slots. Michaels was an excellent worker by not later than 1986. What's odd is that he wasn't rated rated was a top worker until 1989. He wasn't rated at all in the WON Poll for 1986, which is very strange. He was #61 and #56 in 1987 and 1988 respectively, which in hindsight seems a bit low. The Rockers were lost in the woods for much of those years, though. Michaels hit the top 10 for the first time in 1989 and remained a top worker though 1996. 7. Was he a good worker before his prime? Was he a good worker after his prime? Michaels prime was probably 1993-95, and possibly 1996 if one focuses just on PPVs. He was a top worker for four years before his prime going, and a very good worker for three years prior to that. He was a very good to excellent worker when he felt like it after his prime, but post-prime didn't last long. 8. Did he have a large body of excellent matches? Did he have a excellent matches against a variety of opponents? For his era and environment (WWF from 1989-97), Michaels had a large body of excellent matches. The WWF wasn't regularly kicking out excellent-to-great matches, but when they did Michaels and/or Bret Hart tended to be invloved. He had a variety of opponents in those excellent singles matches, ranging from Undertaker, Jannetty, Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Davey Boy, Jeff Jarrett, Foley, Vader, Hall and Nash. 9. Did he ever anchor his promotion(s)? He was the anchor to the WWF from 4/96 to 2/97. He then picked up the pieces after Montreal later in 1997, but he was caddying the title to Austin - It was already known that Austin was the new anchor to the WWF. 10. Was he effective when pushed at the top of cards? The buyrates were, for the most part, mediocre. Ratings bad. House show good for a while before falling off . All of which has been said earlier. He failed at two of three critical areas for a franchise draw, with the positive in the third area tempered by it being a short term bump. This was all of course contrasted by the performances at the top - high quality on PPV, all be it with very disappointing on house shows. It's a very mixed bag, with more negatives than positives. 11. Was he valuable to his promotion before his prime? Was he still valuable to his promotion after his prime? Michaels was a valuable tag worker before his prime. When he was pushed into the IC Title, he moved into his prime. His value after his prime was also mixed - losing his smile, the temoil with Bret, the lower quality of performance, the general feeling that he was a locker room problem. He was a star on some level, but the period after his prime was only about fifteen months, much of it spent on the shelf or in the middle of one problem after another. 12. Did he have an impact on a number of strong promotional runs? The WWF already was in their peak 80s run when he joined, and he had little impact on it. The promotion was in decline by the time his push increased. He did have an impact on a strong house show run in the spring of 1996 through the fall of 1996. He did have some role in the begining of the WWF post Montreal "comeback" and the massive buyrate of Mania '98. But overall, for spending a decade with what was the #1 promotion in the US when he entered it, the answer is a surprising "not very much". 13. Was he involved in a number of memorable rivalries, feuds or storylines? The Midnight Rockers had a memorable feud with Rose & Summers, something at the time akin to a hot feud in ECW in 1997. The Rockers had a memorable rivalry with the Brainbusters, but it seemed to lacked being "memorable" in a way that the MX vs. R'n'R or MX vs. Fans feuds had. Michaels turned heel on Marty in a very strong angle, but then Marty vanished before the feud took off. Marty did comeback for the title turn in 1993, along with the famous match. He had the two ladder matches with Ramon, and a excellent house show ladder series with Ramon leading to the first PPV one. But the rivalry is more known for the two PPV matches than being a strong feud or storyline. His feud with Bret was mostly out of the ring, and lacked a strong storyline. The three PPV matches were not linked, and tended to be islands. He had a good feud with Undertaker, with the HitC being memorable. For the most part it's the Michaels matches that remain memorable, while the feuds or storylines fade. 14. Was he effective working on the mic, working storylines or working angles? Michaels was very inconsistant on the mic. If he had a period of being consistantly good, it was prior to 1995. He got praised at times in 1996 and 1997 for mic work, but regularly got out classed in terms of quality by Austin and Hart. Michaels also didn't really show his ass on the mic after getting the WWF Title for the first time, instead making his opponent look poor. He also had far too many mic spots where he just didn't seem to be in any condition to be on the mic, like the "serious" interview prior to Rumble '97. He really wasn't strong at working a long storyline. He could work very good angles, like the Jannetty one, but ones like the split with Diesel he wasn't very good in. Overall, he tended to be overrated in micwork, working storylines and doing angles, as if people weren't really paying attention to what he was doing. 15. Did he play his role(s) effectively during his career? He was terrific as a tag team worker, playing babyface very well. He was even better after the heel turn playing cocky punk writing checks his ass couldn't pay. He was very poor in the build to the Mania '96 match with Bret acting as the annointed one. Vince going goo-goo over him to build him up didn't help, but Shawn also cut some of the poorest promos of his career during that stretch. As the franchise face, his work in the ring when the cameras were rolling showed him performing well, but in promos he was subpar. He was poor in trying to redefine himself after the loss to Sid in 11/96, and after that he didn't seem to be in any condition to play his role in a consistant fashion. He was fair at best at the creation of DX, but was jerking off or or looped most of the time. 16. What titles and tournaments did he win? What was the importance of the reigns? He bagged the 1995 and 1996 Rumbles. The Rumbles in those years were the highpoint of the WWF calendar along with Mania. The second was too predictable, and it seems to have begun the period where everyone knew who was going to win. They did have importance, as the Rumble is the top "tourny equivalent" in the US. As for titles: * AWA. World Tag Title (2) Shawn had two short reigns in 1987-88 teaming with Marty Jannetty. Both ended with the (Midnight) Rockers jumping to the WWF, the first one seeing them almost instantly getting tossed out of the WWF. * WWF Tag Title (3) Shawn's one tag title reign with Jannetty was wiped off the books. They lifted the belts from the Hart Foundation, then the promotion ignored when they decided to keep Niedhart. His second reign was with Diesel going over the Headshrinkers, and this one ending two months later with Michaels throwing away the title belt. He had a cup of coffee with the belt again, teaming with Austin to end Owen & Davey Boy's long reign with the belts. Shawn and Bret had problems, leading to Shawn wandered off of TV in a couple of weeks without dropping the belts. He had a fourth touch with the belts in 1995, as he and Diesel won/not-won the belts in a screwy PPV, and they had to give the belts back the next night. * Intercontinental Title (3) He lifted the IC Title from Davey Boy late 1992 and dominated it over two reigns for the next eleven months before walking out on the WWF without dropping the belt. He got the belt back in 1995 from Jeff Jarrett, then forfeit the title three months later due to injuries. * European Title Michaels took the belt from Davey Boy and then "laid down" three months later to Hunter without wrestling. * WWF World Title (3) Michaels beat Bret for the title at Wrestlemania '96 and dominated the title for ten months across two reigns. Sid broke up the first reign with a turn-around title change from Survivors to Rumble. Shawn then lost his smile when asked to drop the title again to Sid in February '97. Shawn regained the title in November '97 from Bret at the famous Montreal match, and dropped it to Austin at Mania '98. His last reign effectively was ended at the '98 Rumble with a back injury. Looking at the importance of the titles: For the Rockers, the AWA Tag Team Title was little more than a stepping stone to getting into the WWF. The AWA was well into its decline at this point, with the Rockers facing mediocre opponents. Michaels brushes with the WWF Tag Title are an odd mix. Four times "winning" the title, and all of them ending screwy ways. The "win" that would have had the greatest meaning was the one of the Hart Foundation in 1990, as the title had a more status back then, and the Harts were had aura of at the time of being the top team in the WWF. In addition, the Rockers lost their only chance to have a run with the WWF tag title. The other win that would have had some meaning was the win over Davey and Owen. Smith & Hart had re-established some stability in the title at the time, and there also was some potential for a storyline relating to his uneasy partnership Austin. Instead Michaels walked. All in all, the tag title reign add up to very little other than the ability to say he held the belt a number of times. The Euro title is more of the same - it's a reign to show he won it, and nothing more. The first IC run of two reigns was key in elevating Michaels as a singles wrestler. The belt was the top "secondary" title in the country at that point, even though the WWF was sliding into its down period. The third reign was there to set up the ladder match re-match with Ramon. It ended before anything of additional interest could be done. Overall the three reigns are a postive, with one stretch of dominance, and then a second run that started with a well received match and was supported mid-reign with the second classic ladder match. Michaels' stretch of WWF World title dominance from 4/96 to 2/97 was highlighted with a series of critically acclaimed matches. It also was the first point at which the WWF Title became less important than the WCW Title. As discussed elsewhere, there were positives and negatives with that run from both business and work standpoints. The third reign is often cited as the turning point in the "war" with WCW, but that tends to be overrated. WCW was imploding, while Austin vs. McMahon was what pushed the WWF back to dominance. Overall, Michaels has an impressive list of hardware. If one actually looks at them, most of them were meaningless at the time either in the sense that the title was meaningless like the AWA Tag Title or rendered meaningless by the way inwhich the reign unfolded. In addition, far too many had screwy elements to them, in in the winning of the title or in the way the reign ended. The strongest pluses are (i) a good run dominating the IC belt for nearly a year over two reigns, and (ii) a nearly year run as the WWF's franchise champ over two reigns. The biggest overall negative of Michaels title reigns are even seen in those two pluses - both strong runs ended with Michaels walking out on the title and promotion. 17. Did he win many honors and awards? He never bagged the WON Wrestler of the Year, finishing runner-up to Misawa and Kobashi in 1995 and 1996. The Rockers did win the 1989 WON Tag Team of the Year award, not only topping Arn & Tully but also ending the three year run of the Midnight Express. The ladder matches finished #1 and #2 for WON MOTY in 1994 and 1995 respectively. He better in the PWI Awards, though was again runner-up in 1995 and 1996, here to Diesel and The Giant. The Rockers never won the PWI Tag Team award, but their 5/17/93 match bagged Michaels the first of four straight PWI MOTY awards. The ladder match won in 1994, he went #1 and #2 in 1995 with the matches vs. Diesel and Jarrett, and then went #1 and #2 again in 1996 with the matches against Hart and Mankind. This four year period is easily a the best run in the history of the PWI MOTY award. Michaels bagged a decent amount of silverware, and most of it was match related. 18. Did he get mainstream exposure due to his wrestling fame? Did he get a heavily featured by the wrestling media? Michaels didn't get massive mainstream exposure at the level of Hogan, Piper, Savage, Austin, Rock, Foley or even Chyna. He did get strong media pushes from both the Apter mags and the newsletters. 19. Was he a top tag team wrestler? From 1986-91 he was one of the top tag team wrestlers around. It was with one long term partner, and almost all of it was spent as a face. From the start he was seen as the better half of the team. Michaels than moved into the singles division and was successful to the point that he never worked regularly as a tag team wrestlers again. 20. Was he innovative? People point to his use of sleaze in DX as innovative. For the most part that was borrowed from ECW, and even the crotch chop was lifted from Hall & Nash. He was innovative in ladder match spots. 21. Was he influential? There are a number of younger workers who point to him as an influence. Isolating specific examples of influence, and how those differ from what other peers of Michaels were doing, is a bit mroe difficult. He did have an influence in getting over the ladder match, perhaps akin to Sabu getting over tables. Along with Bret Hart he did had an impact on Vince being willing to push at the top wrestlers who weren't large heavyweights. This impact has been limited as we have yet to see a wave of wrestlers the size of Bret and Shawn taking over the top of the cards. 22. Did he make the people and workers around him better? For much of his career Michaels madw opponents and his partner Marty look better than they really were. Once he got to the top at Mania '96, he was very selective in who he chose to make look better in the ring or on the mic. In fact he had a habit of going out of his way to make other people look poor in mic spots, even when he was suppose to be playing heel. Outside of the ring from 1995 on, he tended to make people around him worse. The Clique was roundly cited as a major negative in the locker room and on the road, causing Vince to be seen as losing control of the locker room. 23. Did he do what was best for the promotion? Did he show a commitment to wrestling? Michaels didn't care about the AWA, as he and Jannetty used it as a stepping stone twice. Given the AWA at the time, this was generally accepted behavior. Once in the WWF the second time, he did tend to do what was best for the promotion through 1992. At some point in 1993 that went out the window as Michaels tended to do what was best for Michaels the rest of his career. He had a string of screwing up plans, disrupting the promotion, and progressivly getting worse as time went by. What's odd is that through the end of 1995, Shawn had a very strong commitment to wrestling. Despite becoming increasingly goofy and difficult to deal with, he did go out and perform every night. From 1996, the commitment hasn't been there, except when the camera is on and the match is booked for Shawn to look good. Even then, he has at time allowed personal problems to impact performances, usually for mic spots but also the Rumble '97. 24. Is there any reason to believe that he was better or worse than he appeared? His injury came at a relatively young wrestling age, at a time when he was still a very good worker. On the other hand he worked a style that ran the risk of injury, was already showing a decline in commitment to wrestling, and was faced with clear evidence that Austin was "The Man" in the WWF. It's likely that the future wasn't rosey for Shawn even if he didn't get injured. By and large, Shawn didn't have the greatest of workers to go out there and work with, nor did he wrestle in a "work based" federation. Given a better grade of worker, it's possible he would have found his Steamboat or Windham out there to work a classic series with as Flair was able to. That said, Shawn's biggest strength in working a match was being able to put on the "Shawn Show". It's not clear how Michaels would have worked with a true peer, and it he would have been willing to fully co-operate with such a person to put on a Flair-Steamboat or Flair-Windham type of match. Looking at the list as a whole, Michaels strengths are work. He was a top worker for a very long time, and for most of that time a very hard working wrestler. He also had a high number of excellent and/or memorable matches with a wide variety of opponent, especially given his era and environment. His negatives are a lack of true and lasting drawing power, his very short run as a anchor for his promotion, his problems anchoring his promotion, and his unwillingness to do what was best for his promotion for more than half a decade. Some of these continued even after injury forced him out in 1998, and are being flashed now that he's about to comeback. As a top worker, he falls well short of the Flair level of being the best in the world and even "best in his country" is a problematic claim. He falls closer to the Steamboat level of worker, at least as far as where people rated him - one of the best in the world and in his country for a period of time, but never quite able to crack the "best" spot. Both were hard workers for a long time, even in a promotion where hard work wasn't a requiremen. Rickey of course bourght other positives to the table, while Shawn brought a bag ful of negatives. The case for Shawn is not the slam dunk pick people like to say he is. ---------------------------- Discuss.

LOL @ the HHHawaiian shirt.

What about the Benoit/Jericho period in May-June? The titles seemed pretty important then. Agreed. For that three-week period, being the tag team champions was a big deal again.

Tweety Pie

Bill Murray in Quick Change. One of his best performances in a very underrated movie.

Hell, in my opinion, it doesn't even make his top three. WMXIII with Austin, WMX with Owen and WMVIII with Piper were all clearly better.

Diamond Doll

Yes...it was a three-story brownstone somewhere in New York. There was a older black couple on one floor, and a pair of young newlyweds on another floor. I remember it from the review in TV Guide in that year's Fall Preview issue. What the hell was the name of it, though? CanadianChris - I E-Mailed TV Geek. His reply: Damn. I E-Mailed Stump The Shark and they still haven't put my question up, so I'm hoping they get to it soon. The show was called "Married People" and aired on ABC. Click here for it's IMDB listing. THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!!! I completely forgot...the only reason I watched the show in the first place was because Jay Thomas was on it. Kinda cool that we stumped the TV Geek, too.

Click here to download the intro Yeah...except it was Wayne Gretzky, not Larry Bird.

page

I can't even tell you how excited I was to hear Pyramid had come back. Then I watched it. I can't even tell you what a letdown it was.

619