iggymcfly

Well, I guess that this has turned into pretty much a joke thread, but given that the end is in sight now, I think I see how it's going to end. Kane's gonna do something to pretty much kill Matt in storyline terms, (i.e. a tombstone on the steps). Then when he goes for another one to destroy Matt worse, HBK comes down, gives him the Sweet Chin Music, puts Matt on top of Kane for the cover, and allows Lita and Matt to gracefully exit our television sets for a few months.

When the main event storyline on the show is Bradshaw trying to make everyone believe he's really the champion, and they spend 30 minutes of the show on boring, stale-ass John Cena, they're not going to get a lot of people to watch. Period. Their lower midcard may be better than Raw's, as Spike and the Dudleys against the cruisers is kind of interesting, but it's not enough to make people actually tune in to watch it. And no, an off and on Angle/Eddie segment isn't enough either. I watched Smackdown this week, because I'm gonna be back at school in a week or two and I won't get UPN anymore, but after that endless "main event", I have to say, I was kind of sorry that I did.

This asshole's really going all out to try to make his point, and he's getting nowhere. Yeah, this Matt/Kane thing may not have been the best ever angle in the world, but it's not exactly the kind of program that Matt should "turn down." He was going nowhere, wrestling a bunch of jobbers on Raw, and working a Kane program was definitely a step up. As for his career being "damaged", if he thinks anyone will actually remember this nine months from now when Matt comes back, he really does know nothing about the business. Shit, Jeff Hardy will probably be working for the WWE again by then, and he can just make the save for Jeff some time and go from there. I'm sure he is thrilled to have any kind of interaction with Matt Hardy, but he comes off looking incredibly childish.

What's the deal with all the stupid restrictions on everything lately? You can't talk about this here, or the topic will get closed. You can't talk about this at all or the topic will get closed. This topic carries a vague resemblence to another topic, so it has to be closed. And some person's posts aren't clever enough, and he occasionally ignores the inanely obscure and cumbersome forum rules, so he has to be OMG BANNED!!! Let me just show some examples here. When Brock Lesnar does something, the only people that actually care are WWE fans. Do you think sports fans give a fuck who the last guy that makes the Vikings practice roster is? Of course not. But Brock Lesnar doesn't wrestle for the WWE anymore, and the official forum rules state that since he is no longer part of the WWE, he must be reclassified by his latest endeavour which is his dabbling in football. As a result any threads about Brock in the WWE folder must be reclassified or closed immediately before they are read by the wrong person. In addition, we need another inane thread to be pinned regarding the extreme importance of not mentioning Brock Lesnar outside of the WWE folder. Another example, Scott Keith. Most internet wrestling fans at least know who he is, and have an opinion on him. In addition, they would probably be mildly interested to know that he is leaving 411, at least moreso than they would be to know another update on the condition of Trish Stratus's pinky finger. But no, SK is not part of the WWE, and he even writes for another site, so any threads pertaining to him must be closed immediately. Never mind that it would up the traffic for the smartmarks.com if anything when people go to read the Dames review because SK's isn't there. Rules are rules and they must be followed. Finally, the other day, I started a thread giving an idea for what they could do with Summerslam if HHH won the Iron Man match. But, no there were already "several" threads about the Raw main event of Summerslam, and mine was unnecessary and needed to be closed. Of course, several threads actually meant one which had been given spoiler tags in the subheading by the mods, but that was beside the point. As everyone knows a good mod's job is to indiscriminately ban posters and close threads until only the very best of the best remain. Now I know the SmartMarks forums are private and all of that, and the mods have the right to do whatever they please. I know all of that and I don't really think anyone's disputing it. My question is "What's the point?". If people want to discuss something, why not just let them? It's one thing if people are actively harming other people's discussions. i.e. The guy who writes 100 comments along the lines of: "HHH has a big nose. Thanks." every time there's a Raw thread; I would understand if someone wanted to ban him. Even if people are blatantly posting things in the wrong forum or going off-topic, I could see the moderators needing to step in. But these incessant attempts to control what people talk about seem highly unnecessary. I know being a mod is kind of a thankless job. It's mainly people who really enjoy the forums and just want to make them better. Seeing as how there's a pretty decent amount of work involved, people get bored just doing small occasional changes and want to throw their weight around a little bit. It's one of the few perks one has being a mod. I just think it would be nice if the mods could back off a little bit, and realize that the ultimate goal of the forums is to offer enjoyable discussion for individuals with similar interests.

Actually, I thought it was pretty boring. It just made too much of the match feel inconsequential, as you knew that Cena and Booker T would have the deciding fall. Having to take commercial breaks in the middle didn't do it any favors credibility-wise either. I think if they actually wanted to do it regularly, they'd have to do it with regular (2 person) tag teams so that the ending wouldn't be telgraphed every time

Actually, I wasn't doing that at all, if you actually read the post. I was saying that if they were just picking and choosing matches, they would have absolutely left Over the Edge out to avoid the controversy. The PPV where someone dies can't be considered a "highlight" match unless they want to be accused of profiting off of Owen's death. The Angle/Austin comment was completely superfluous to my point. I was just saying that after I'd shown it was fake, I felt like pointing out that the guy was a dumbass for leaving Austin/Angle at SS out of his list.

You certainly are. Try the WWF for all of 1998 and 1999 which would also be known as the absolute peak of the wrestling industry. As for the problem with Raw, it's pretty simple. There just aren't enough interesting storylines. The HHH/Eugene feud has been built really well, and it's excellent as the #2 feud on Raw. The problem is that there's no #1 feud to go with it. Benoit's storyline with Orton is the thinnest for a title match since.... well, Benoit's storyline with Kane. I was glad to see Benoit finally interrupt Orton this week, like he should have been doing all along to Kane and HHH, but it's not enough. The thing is HHH and Eugene make up maybe 2 segments a night. The people who sat through them might be interested enough to watch the PPV, or at least the next Raw. However, the two segments aren't enough to make casual fans sit through endless Diva Search segments, or permutation #79 of the pointless women's tag match, or 15 minutes of Edge and Jericho doing stalling and restholds, or Matt Hardy and Kane glaring at each other and throwing a table. Also, they're looking to Orton to be the next big guy to carry Raw, so what do they do? They have him tap out to Benoit in 10 seconds, lose a handicap match where he was partnered with the top heel, and then get beat up by Eugene. I guess someone's "Booking Wrestling for Dummies" must say that the winner of the PPV match should look like shit on the show before the PPV so it's a "surprise" or something, but all this does is really hurt Orton's chances of getting over. If they really want to raise the Raw ratings, here's Iggy's prescription 1. Cut the diva search- This is the most boring thing ever. Either cut it to one segment a night or get rid of it altogether. The only reason people ever care about wrestling T&A is that they get into the characters. Then it's like a real person, (especially to 14 yr. olds that haven't made it with a girl yet), and they kind of want to see them naked or near naked. Random chicks in bikinis every week= boring, change the channel. 2. Build up the main event storylines more- Since wrestling first started, it's always been the main event guys that draw the fans. If Benoit and Kane are fighting because, well Kane won a battle royal, and there wasn't anybody else to fight, and Kane might kind of like the title if he's not too busy, then it's not gonna work. They need to at least give a decent build to every main event storyline. 3. Build some auxilliary heels besides Evolution and Kane This is a point that a lot of people made and it's a valid one. When there aren't enough credible main event heels, the faces never get over because they're always either fighting with the same people or getting pushed down the car. This has been a problem since HHH first was awarded the World title from Bischoff. It's the reason Booker T never got over in 2003, and it's the reason that Jericho's not getting over right now. 4. Cut the ridiculous storylines When Lita inexplicably agrees to marry Kane if Matt loses a match, it makes people say "This is stupid, I'm changing the channel." When Bischoff says he can't fire Eugene because his sister will find out that she doesn't like him, and then HHH points out that Bischoff's sister watches Raw with Eugene, it makes people say "This is stupid, I'm changing the channel." Continuity gaps are easy to fix, but a lot of the time, the WWE doesn't bother. 5. Get rid of stupid match finishes When people watch a 20 minute match, only to have it end because someone got distracted and rolled up, or pinned when someone got a little extra leverage from the ropes, it just pisses people off. If you're not going to do a clean win, at least do a ref bump and a chairshot or something, so that people feel like they got their money's worth.

What really disproves this rumor is the inclusion of the Over the Edge match. The only way they'd ever possibly consider using that match is if they were including every single title change in WWE history. Given that there are title changes that aren't on there, the Over the Edge match is absolutely wrong for any WWE set. Also, whoever the fuckshit was that put that listing together didn't include Austin/Angle from SS 2001. What the hell is that about?

I hope you're joking. You do know that Benoit was single-handedly beating the two top heels on Raw in a handicap match, even with the interference of Flair and then won by DQ. If anyone looked like pussies, it was HHH and Orton. As for the "retard", he's the most over face on Raw, and he's pretty much being pushed as the #2 face. He's not a comedy act right now, because he's got the most serious story on either brand. He's more a Foley-type sympathetic simpleton, than he is a comedy act at this point. He's perfectly capable of making the save. And tonight was a good example of why Benoit doesn't get the mic too much. "I'm gonna get you two SOBs." I mean who says that? It would have been nice if they put a little more effort into the Benoit/Orton storyline, especially as far as putting Orton over goes, but I really don't see anything too wrong with the Summerslam build. Oh, one more thing. If they're really planning a Benoit/Edge feud for the IC Title, they're retarded. You can't take someone right off of a long world title reign like that, and throw them right back to that level. Personally, I think this is one of those rumors that's completely unfounded, and we'll see Benoit getting his rematch with Orton and Unforgiven, and maybe eventually feuding with Edge after Edge drops the belt.

Look three posts up. As for the show, I thought the HHH/Eugene stuff was absolutely fantastic, and the Benoit/Orton stuff was pretty decent, but the rest of the show sucked donkey balls. The diva search stuff was terrible. It just gets dumber and more boring by the week. I did really like Orton interrupting it, but it just wears thin really fast. They have to cut it to two segments a show. Or one. Or I guess zero would work. I actually fell asleep during the Edge/Jericho match. I watched part of it on fast-forward and it made it blatantly obvious how much they were stalling. They walked in a big circle around the ring about 20 times, and when they weren't doing that, it was mainly punches and restholds. Given that the feud's built on the tension between the faces rising to the surface, I think a verbal segment would have done better than a 15-20 minute non-title match. And the Kane/Lita stuff is pretty dumb too. I was relieved to see them give a stipulation for if Matt wins, and the pregnancy saga is moving along quickly, but the contract signing was drawn out and boring, and the whole thing still doesn't make sense. I mean, if someone's constantly threatening you, do you really have to sign a contract for a match with them to get them to go away? Couldn't you just get a restraining order? And besides, weren't Matt and Lita "not scared anymore"? I did really like the HHH/Eugene segment though. The beatdown on Regal looked vicious, and Eugene played off the guilt perfectly. It was also a good return to HHH the ruthless, cunning assassin, instead of HHH the stupid asshole who cheats to win wrestling matches. To put it another way, it was HHH being HHH, not HHH being Ric Flair. I really think this is the best feud in the last two years.

Ooh ooh! I'm there. Honestly, I feel the same way about Hurricane now that I did about Rikishi in his second to last face run. As in the gimmick's finished, it's become extremely boring, and it's time to move on to something else or give up on him forever. Hurricane, Rikishi, and Val Venis are all acts whose overness is over.

There's a difference between going over the top with a storyline and being stupid. For example, when they did the thing where Austin chased around Vince with a gun and then made him wet his pants in the main event angle, you got the impression that they knew what they were doing and wanted to show that they didn't take themselves too seriously. It was over the top, but it was still fun. The ministry stuff was over the top too, but it still didn't have inherent logic gaps (like Katie Vick), or just an embarrassing idea (like spraying poop). You got the idea that they always knew where the line was, and they wouldn't quite cross it. Now, it seems like they have no idea where the line might be, and they're just trying random stuff to see where they might go with it, and dropping it at a moment's notice if it doesn't work. I think the best comparison would be between the Undertaker in '99 and the Undertaker now. Back then, they always portrayed him as a heel when he was doing these things, and they stuck with the character. If he kidnapped Stephanie, everyone acted genuinely worried about it, and did everything they could to save her. Now, Heyman and the Dudleyz kidnap Paul Bearer, and no one does anything about it. Then, the Undertaker "kills" him for no reason, sits home a week or two, and then challenges the top heel for the title, forgetting the whole thing. An over the top storyline with continuity can be fun, but when they're just going in random embarrassing directions with no reason or purpose, it really turns people off.

I was thinking about and I figured out how they could guarantee a good buyrate for the Tuesday PPV, without making the Smackdown PPV look bad by giving the card good hype ahead of time, while also helping build up to Orton/HHH at WM XX. Here's what I was thinking. First, we assume that Orton beats Benoit for the title at Summerslam. Then, have Bischoff start to turn tweener on Eugene a little bit after he finally realizes that he won't leave. He stops playing the typical heel GM, and starts going back to trying to make Raw an entertaining show. In this vein, he says that the title picture has gotten too muddied, and at Unforgiven, in addition to a Orton/Benoit rematch, they'll have an Elimination Chamber match which will determine the #1-6 contenders for the World Title based on the order of elimination. At the Tuesday PPV, the #1 contender will face the champ, while the #2 contender will face the #3 contender to see who gets the title shot at the next PPV. The elimination chamber will feature Triple H, Chris Jericho, Edge, Kane, Shawn Michaels, and Eugene. HHH starts out the EC match with Edge, but manages to survive all the way to the end by laying low. Eugene is the last man to leave his cell, and due to his freshness, he manages to pick up the duke on HHH. Meanwhile, Orton retains against Benoit, and it appears that they're building towards an Orton/Eugene main event at the next PPV. However, two Raws before the PPV takes place, Evolution gives Eugene a vicious beatdown, rendering him unable to compete at Taboo Tuesday. To kick off the last Raw before Taboo Tuesday, HHH and Orton cut a promo about how since Eugene can't compete it will be an all-Evolution main event at the PPV, as HHH is the #2 contender. Just when they start getting in each other's faces and jostling for position, Bischoff comes out and says that HHH isn't getting the shot. He is already signed to face Jericho (the #3 contender from the EC), and since Eugene can't compete, Bischoff has seen fit to name a new #1 contender, in a man that never got a rematch when he lost the title. When HHH points out that Orton already gave Benoit a rematch, Eric says he's not talking about Benoit, he's talking about the Rock! Then Rock comes out, and gives a big speech about how he's just there to avenge Eugene, and he's going to take the belt away from Evolution. The Orton/Rock main event would practically sell the PPV on it's own, especially if they had a good verbal sparring session afterward. Also, Rock could transition the belt from Orton to HHH, so that Orton could flip out about not getting his rematch and break the group up, or just slowly burn about it while trying to put up a good front. They would also have good decoy Rumble winners in Benoit working his way up from #6 contender, and Eugene who lost his title shot. Finally, the Orton/HHH main event at Mania would be a lot more compelling if Orton was trying to get his long-denied rematch against HHH then if it was just a heel HHH trying to end his former buddy's seven month title run. This idea just kind of formulated itself in my head, when i was thinking about how they were gonna build the Orton/HHH match at Mania, and I remembered that there was a thread asking what kind of angle they could do to sell the Taboo Tuesday PPV, so I figured I'd find the thread and post it here.

The internet smarks that love to villify "casual fans" for short attention spans and wanting two-minute matches really miss the point. All that casual fans want is to have good storylines to make them care about the matches. The reason that the ratings dipped in 2001 wasn't because they were having 20 and 30 minute main events. It was because the storylines were incredibly boring. WCW "invading" was an interesting idea for the first few weeks. Having WCW fight a seemingly endless battle with the WWF for five months with only one match mattering for the actual storyline of which promotion survived was not. The epic battles of the personalities that people cared about (Austin vs. Rock) got lost by the wayside as everyone was supposed to care which letters (WCW or WWF) won which tag match. Since then, there really haven't been very many well-written epic feuds, in which two established personalities battle to defeat each other. We're left with formulaic angles and skits in the main event. For every good storyline where HHH manipulates his "special" fan Eugene, or becomes jealous of his best friend Shwan Michaels and turns on him, there are 10 where he gets chased out of the ring by Goldberg, Booker T, or Scott Steiner, and acts kind of scared of them before cheating when they have their match. Eddie Guerrero driving Bradshaw's car around and scaring him, and Undertaker chokeslamming a midget are examples of the same kind of shit. They almost had a feud people would care about with Kurt and Eddie, but when Eddie's having an auction to sell Kurt Angle's cast, people kind of stop caring. Now, that's what brings casual fans in. As for what tunes them out after they get hooked? It's not long matches, and it's not even usually boring, repetitive programs. It's embarrassing displays that make them ashamed to watch wrestling. As for an example of what I'm talking about, see Katie Vick, Shane burning Kane alive only to have him come back the next week, Big Show's dead father, Eddie spraying poop on the Big Show, Scott Steiner rubbing HHH down in baby oil, and the diva search. If the WWE can give people decent characters, write mildly interesting feuds for them, and avoid doing things so blatantly bad that they tune people out, they should really have no trouble. I think Russo and Kreski could both book shows that included 10 minute matches and 20 minute main events, and still do a hell of a lot better than the WWE is doing right now.

I still don't see how they can bank on Orton's first reign being successful enough to last seven months. He's 24, he's just barely over, and his highest profile win thus far was over a retired Mick Foley. If they're going to make it work, they'll either need excellent writing and extremely well-built feuds, or they're going to have to change it up a little bit and have him pass the title back and forth with other people in the meanwhile. You know who the last man was to hold the title for over six months in their first reign? Shawn Michaels all the way back in 1996. Lesnar was crazy over for a heel, and he only made it three months his first time around. I'd say it's more likely they do something like this: Orton wins the title at SS, and beats Benoit in a rematch at Unforgiven. Then, at "Taboo Tuesday", HHH beats Benoit in a #1 contender's match while Orton loses the title to a transitional face (Jericho or Eugene, maybe even The Rock if they really want to sell the PPV). Since HHH is the #1 contender, he gets the next shot rather than Orton. He wins the title, and when Orton starts demanding his rematch, he refuses, telling him to go for the IC belt. Finally, Orton snaps and attacks HHH, giving him an RKO. The next week, Trips does the fake peacemaking, only to give Orton a bloody beatdown and kick him out of Evolution. Orton wins the Rumble to get his rightful shot at HHH, and presto, you have a WM main event.

When I just saw that he was getting suspended for the season for weed, I thought it was kind of bullshit, but if he already got caught getting 14 year olds drunk, I guess it makes sense. Besides, Randall's been a damn good QB for them, and he deserves to play his senior season without looking over his shoulder every damn game. As for how Va. Tech's gonna do this year, .500 sounds about right. The ACC's gonna be crazy tough this year, and really Va. Tech built a lot of their reputation by beating up on teams like Rutgers and Temple in the Big East.

It does that to me too, every now and then. What you've got to do is move the control stick right at the snap, even if it's just to take a three-step drop. Then, that will establish that you're controlling the play yourself and the AI won't try to take over.

You can say that Orton doesn't have any opponents he can work ***** matches with, but he does have a lot more options in the main event than Benoit does. As a heel who could turn face in a couple weeks or stay heel for the next two years just as easily who hasn't burned out their feud with anyone, Orton could work with basically anyone on the roster. If Benoit wins at Summerslam, I really don't see what they do with Unforgiven. Since Orton just got his title shot by winning a battle royal when he didn't really seem "worthy" otherwise, he's have no claim to main event another PPV if he loses. HHH has had way too many losses to merit another title shot, and Kane was beaten too decisively to earn another shot as well. Edge anmd Jericho look to be going into a hot feud that will last at least another month, so that really leaves no one who could main event with Benoit. Batista would be too much Evolution if Orton had already lost, and there's no way Christian would be ready. While I'd like to see Benoit retain since he really has some momentum with the title, and I don't really think Orton's ready for the belt yet, I just don't see where they'd go with it. I think at the very least, Orton is going to need a one month reign with the title, because there's nowhere else to go with Benoit right now.

That's true to an extent, and I'm sure the people who stuck around for the Ironman were happy to see Eugene come out, and a lot of them tuned in this week to see what would happen. However, when they build matches throughout the show, it also keep people tuned in. People who tuned in for the opening segment to see what Raw would be like stayed tuned to see the Regal/HHH match. Then, since they managed to build the main event with a hot Highlight Reel segment between Edge and Jericho before the HHH/Regal match started, it kept people tuned to see the main event as well. Now the Diva Search and the Lita/Matt storyline are both insanely idiotic enough that many people would just say "God, this is stupid, why am I watching this," and just turn the show off. While good quality segments will tend to show up more the following week, building matches throughout the show is proven to increase ratings.

You tricky bastard, sneaking in mentions of Brock Lesnar in the WWE folder. He plays football now, and he belongs in the sports folder, god damn it! Anyway, I'm not surprised the Raw rating was up a little bit. The HHH/Regal storyline and the Edge/Jericho storyline were both really interesting, and the main event was solid. I can't help but think that they might be getting into 4.0 territory if they cut back the Diva Search to one segment a night, and just put in a little bit of effort to making the Kane/Lita thing make sense. I mean really, if Lita felt bad that she almost ruined her relationship with Matt by sleeping with Kane, would she just offer to marry him for no reason if Matt loses? At least give a stipulation where Lita and Matt would get some benefit, like if Matt wins, then Kane leaves the WWE forever.

No, it's certainly not going to be one and done. They've got 5 months of main events without HHH (supposedly), and they're gonna have a hard enough time filling the slots. If Orton wins the title, he and Benoit will wrestle at least two PPVs together.

How would they explain the multiple falls? I really hope you're kidding.

Yeah, just keep yourself under 10 drinks a night and only drink on Friday and Saturday. You'll never make it through a "few weeks" if you're main form of recreation with your friends is drinking.

Chill out. I still like the boards. It's not like I was demanding the board make changes, or saying we have the right to keep threads open or something. I was just pointing out that some of the stuff the mods were doing was getting silly. It was more a "everybody look at what a waste of time this is" thread than a "make changes or else" kind of thread.

This is from a totally out-of-kayfabe interview with Off The Record on TSN. If you want, you can read the whole thing on the link here. Yeah, I know he's somewhat friends with HHH, but I still think this has some merit. HHH/HBK at SS 2002 wasn't just a "garbage match" like so many like to suggest. When you include factors like actually making the fans care and drawing money as well as the quality of the match, it was the greatest match of our time. If Flair really just wanted to include a match with HHH that didn't have "garbage selling", he could have used the Triple Threat from Mania or something, but he didn't. The man considered by many to be the greatest worker of all-time recognized that HHH/HBK was the greatest match of this time. OK, I know I'm gonna get a bunch of HHHaters that dismiss this as Flair kissing HHH's ass, but I still wanted to post it, because I think it was his honest opinion.