iggymcfly

Orton has charisma, mic skills, and an interesting character which is more than you can say for 90% of the roster. His wrestling skills are below average for a main eventer, but still passable. He relies a little bit too much on restholds, but when he gets going his execution is actually very crisp, and he does some clever spots now and then. His selling is also very good when he puts some effort into it. I'd compare him to Batista. Batista is actually a little worse in the ring, as shown in that awful HIAC match he had with HHH last year that was literally about 90% stalling. And not the forgivable "resthold" stalling either, but the business exposing "stand around while I try to figure out what to do next" kind of stalling. Batista however is even a little bit more charismatic that Orton, and has better mic skills as well, so he's even more over.

That's one thing I've been wondering about this whole "double pin" scenario that people keep bringing up. Why the hell would Cena get the WWE title if there was a double pin? It's not like the match would be for both titles, so they'd just split them in two. The match would be for the WWE title only, so if there was a double pin, either RVD would keep the belt or the title would get held up. It doesn't make sense that it would go to Cena. If they are going to move the title back to Raw, the only way it makes sense is for Edge to win it. That way Cena still has the heat of chasing the guy that screwed him out of the title going into Summerslam, Edge has the heat of being the champion, and RVD looks like he's still legitimate because he already beat Edge cleanly in a singles match. Not sure who Edge should pin though. That's still a little sketchy.

Actually, I wasn't talking about JBL being a great foil for Cena. I was just saying that he was the only champion in WWE history that had as long and disappointing of a reign as Cena did. I know Diesel was close, but I think in that day and age, it was more accepted for title reigns to drag on and on and on.

Yeah, I think I missed that too. In my mind, WWE mark = ridiculous dumbass that cheers for Cena. I forgot about the in between types that haven't been watching long enough to embrace ECW, but still realize that Cena's crap.

Exactly. It's episodic booking which is something the WWE has been missing for a while. I think it's going to come out that Heyman went to Edge, told him he was being misused, and enlisted him as an insurance policy which was kind of hinted at by the backstage segment between Heyman and RVD as well as Edge "leaving the WWE". However, finding out exactly how it's all going to come together is a good reason to tune in tomorrow and a good reason to tune in next Monday.

I disagree. The thing about Cena is that he fragments the audience. Sure, 60% of them or so love him and buy all his merchandise. The problem is that the rest of the fans can't stand him. So what do they do? Enter RVD. Now, the other 40% still has a top face to rally behind that's involved in the same main feud. I'm mildly interested in Cena/Edge because they've built it well, but what I really want to see is RVD kick both of their asses. Well, Vince has decided to appease me and the 40% of the audience like me by building things in a way where both sides can feel like their side won fair and square.

I definitely agree. Any problems that Raw had tonight were completely redeemed in the main event. That was the hottest television main event I can remember in a long, long, time. This is the kind of thing they need if they want to get ratings, revenues, and buyrates back up. It was a swerve ending to both marks and smarks and it made sense.

I agree that they need to get ECW it's own tapings, but I really don't mind the WWE/ECW interaction that much and if they want to do it through Summerslam, I think that would be fine. Everybody initially thought the WCW invasion was gonna be the biggest angle ever, but it didn't work because they didn't have their own show, and the angle took up every slot on the show to the point that people got bored to death with it. Well, ECW has it's own show, it takes up maybe two segments a night on Raw, and maybe one segment a night on ECW. What's wrong with that? This Cena/Edge/RVD storyline has me more intrigued than any main event feud they've done since HHH/Batista. Seriously, what's wrong with that? They can still bring in Punk to start a feud with Angle, and they can have some fun spotfests with Sandman and Sabu, but is this interaction really bad for the company? If anything, it's bringing a bigger audience to the show that might get hooked on what ECW has to offer. Sure, it would get stale after a few months, but right now it's a nuclear hot feud.

I actually love that finish. From the perspective of the stupid WWE mark that's only been watching wrestling for a year, nobody gets out of the STFU, so Cena obviously had the match won. From the ECW fan's perspective, they've seen RVD get out of way tougher spots than that, and there's no way that RVD was tapping to that shitty move so it means nothing and he's still the legitimate champion. God, I was about 99% sure that Cena was winning the belt tonight, and I'm thrilled to see that he didn't.

I'll take it. THANK YOU EDGE! THANK YOU EDGE! Oh, and Cena didn't have the match won. No way RVD was gonna tap to that bullshit move. Also, I like the storyline with Heyman not trusting RVD and recruiting Edge. (Which is obviously what happened.)

Well, I hate the early commercial, and the ring intros were a nice touch, but why the fuck is RVD getting booed? Doesn't this infuriate the reasonable fans enough to get off their asses and start cheering. Or at least chant 'Cena sucks' or something?

You don't like Farrely brothers or Sandler movies either right? Show me a Farrelly brothers or Sandler movie where there's a five minute joke of people being covered in poop. Even in Back to the Future, that only gets a few seconds. And the Vince and Shane impressions went waaaaay too long.

Wow, and I thought Cena was sophomoric and immature. If this is going to be the future of Raw, I'm going to quit watching immediately after RVD's match tonight.

Fart juice? What is Cena, 12? I think even most 12 year olds are more mature than that.

I don't get what the point was of having Trish jobbed out so easily like that. It hurts her because it makes it look like she can't hold her own in the ring anymore, and at the same time, it hurts Mickie James, because right after she showed domination, she instantly became an afterthought to Trish/Melina.

Orton's 100 times more entertaining that Cena. At least you can believe in his character. Cena's is just stupid. And Orton can bust out a good match on occasion too, (see Foley, Benoit, and Taker). I can't remember the last time I watched Cena wrestle and thought "wow, that was a really good match". Of course if Orton had held the title for 11 of the last 12 months, and was about 99% to beat RVD tonight, I suppose I might start to resent him too.

It's a must-see match if you're a Benoit mark. That was my whole point. That the match is really only enjoyable if you're a Benoit mark. I watched it rooting for HBK and HHH 2nd with the idea that at least it wouldn't be so damn predictable, and I found the match to be very dull and formula. Better than an average PPV match to be sure, but nowhere near the quality that I'd expect for a WM main event.

Why does everyone dislike 2002 so much. I thought it was much better than anything since. We had the most anticipated match in the last five years (Rock/Hogan), the best feud in the past five years (HHH/HBK), the best title reign in the past five years (Brock's first run), the most shocking angle in the past five years (the NWO runs over the Rock), the best wrestling week in and week out (the Smackdown six), and the best single match since I started watching wrestling ten years ago (the street fight from Summerslam). I guess maybe it gets a bad rap due to the spring which featured a revolving door on the championship and the awful Hogan nostalgia run, but most of the year was tremendous. I can't imagine that anyone would rate it behind 2003 (the year where Steiner, Nash, and Goldberg were the main event faces on Raw), 2004 (the never-ending JBL run on SD and a now thoroughly stale HHH on Raw), or 2005 (super-Cena goes over the world).

I agree that the best finish would be for RVD to just retain. I'm just saying that failing that, they need to protect him better than "ooh, Edge interfered". If his whole (two-week) reign was predicated on the idea that it didn't matter that Edge interfered, then they can't have that just be his justification for losing to the same man he beat due to Edge's help in the first place.

The thing is that they've made a big deal about how "under ECW rules, anything goes" with the idea that that was the way RVD could beat Cena in the first place. Well, if RVD loses to Cena in a manner that would have been legal under ECW rules (like Edge interfering), then what is he? A second rate champion. He isn't "screwed", he's just inferior to Cena. Oh, and the "hands over the mouth thing" is even better as WWE can just claim that RVD submitted, and let that be that, while on the ECW show, RVD can say he was screwed and he's the real world's champion. In fact, if they just show an angry RVD in the background as the credits roll on Raw, and then never mention it again there, that would also be a great finish.

The other ones weren't mentioned in 12 different posts.

I was just looking through this thread, and all the comments about the Triple Threat from WM XX. You know why everyone seemed to like it so well? Because the net fans were all marks for Benoit and Benoit won the title. That's it. Seriously, that match was lucky if it even cracked ****. The action wasn't smooth, it didn't tell a story, there wasn't even that much drama in it. It was a big mess of finishers being broken up, before Benoit countered the Pedigree and made HHH tap out in a very predictable ending. Shit, the singles match between HHH and HBK fom 3 1/2 months before was far superior in terms of actual match quality. Oh, if I'm bumping this thread I suppose I should mention something positive too. Here's a then and now for RVD: Now: RVD/Angle vs. Edge/Orton from this last Tuesday. I really liked this match a lot. Much better than the predictable crap that's been running on WWE TV lately. Then: RVD vs. Austin from Smackdown on 09/04/01. RVD having possibly his best singles match in the WWE at the absolute peak of his popularity. If you went back and watched this match now, you'd probably be shocked at how over RVD was. He was getting the Rock/Austin/Hogan icon pop, the kind that Vince dreams about Cena getting. Oh, and the match was tremendous too. Austin hadn't lost even remotely close to clean in 7 months, but RVD took everything he had to give and came right back at him to get the pinfall. I haven't seen it in a long time, so I don't remember all the details, but the pacing was incredible, and everything built very well toward the finish.

Cena defending the title against Triple H was the plan a while ago. With Triple H finally winning the title after not being champion for a year and a half. Wasn't that before HHH turned face? I figured after all this, they would be so intent on protecting Cena that they wouldn't dare put him against someone who's likely to get cheered over him. Also, I think HHH/Orton is rumored for Summerslam. Given that HHH and Cena just main evented 2 of the last 3 Raw PPVs together, I'd think that's actually even worse than another Cena/Edge match.

I was thinking about the RVD/Cena match, and how I'd do it if I were booking. I think to work is has to be a ref screwjob. If someone interferes or Cena uses a weapon, it doesn't matter because under ECW rules, those would be legal anyway. I think an ideal situation would be that Cena locks on that stupid STFU, and RVD stays in it for a good 15 or 20 seconds as the ref looks increasingly nervous. Finally, when it looks like he's starting to counter, the ref signals for the bell. RVD does counter and when he finds out, unbleeped, he says "this is fucking bullshit", gives the ref as good of a punch as he can, and walks off. Vince would love the idea because they get to revisit the Montreal screwjob a little bit, Cena can say that he wasn't in on it, but it was only fair, since he got screwed when RVD beat him, and RVD can still be the strong "real world's champion" on ECW TV. I'm sure that revisiting Montreal again won't be popular on these boards, but a fake submission is really about the only way I can think of for Cena to win the title without taking RVD's heat with him. The alternative is for the WWE ref to refuse to count a pinfall for RVD, but that turns Cena straight-up heel in the middle of the match, and doesn't allow him the same out that the other scenario does.

If RVD retains on Raw tomorrow night, all is forgiven. Of course, he won't, but he better at least lose by screwjob, or I'm going ballistic. If he jobs clean to Cena, I might quit watching Raw for good. By the way, what the hell is supposed to be the Raw main event of Summerslam? Do they really think that Edge has any heat left after jobbing clean yet again? At this point, I think Edge/Cena would tank horribly.