pochorenella

Yes, now I remember that HHH speech. About young guys relying too much on highspots, it's partially true, but I believe it doesn't apply that much in current WWE. They're very few and far between. In other promotions I couldn't really say, but I've seen some stuff from both ROH and TNA that do so. Not to say that all they do is highspots, but you see a TON of them that make no coherent story sense.

I've never heard/read anything anywhere saying HHH or Shawn criticized others for wanting cheap pops. What I read was management used that match as example on the direction they wanted matches to go. If both guys openly criticized other guys because of this it's news to me, and it's wrong. High-risk spots, done in moderation, are totally enjoyable IMO. Take Foley vs Orton at Backlash for example. If we see those kind of spots once in a full-moon then I like them. Sick spots for the sake of sick spots day in and day out turn me away.

How so? If you mean HHH and Shawn, their best match (December 2003 RAW) had no table spot.

I believe that if HHH faces Benoit at Vengeance then definitely the Title changes hands at SummerSlam and goes back to Trips.

Fair enough, 2pacallyps. Match ratings are all subjective anyway, depending on personal tastes more often than not. The WMXX ME is the best triple threat match I've ever seen, superior to the famous ROH one many people tout as the best ever. But again, is my personal opinion, and I'm game for discussing it in an intelligent manner with anyone.

Well, this is from way back so it figures I forgot about it. Still, pretty good match for TV, Shawn gave Trips tons of offense and the crowd loved HBK. Krazykat, I was there live too. I felt an atmosphere for the ME that reminded me of WMX-7 (which I was also lucky to attend), without saying the former had the same heat as the latter (I'd be foolish to). Still, having rewatched the match on DVD at least 4 times, I'd dare to say it was the best ME I've seen since WMX-7.

When you say the Backlash match was "worse" than WM, are you implying WM was bad? I'd say yes, WM was better than Backlash (in fact, is my favorite of the year so far) and stand by my ratings. Sorry you don't share them, but what can I do.

Yes, I know. Just messing with you, man.

Fair enough. But then, by that argument, I don't want to hear Benoit fans saying he's had 3 ****+ PPV matches so far this year (Rumble, WM, Backlash) when it's clear none were one-on-one matches. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

No problem, those are your tastes. But why not include the three-ways? Benoit was the winner of both but surely HHH and HBK had a hand in making both matches great. They can't exist in a vacuum.

Personally, I give their SummerSlam 2002 match ****1/4, their December RAW match ****1/2, same for the Backlash 3-way, and ***** for the WM Main. The latter two, even though they had Benoit in them, should also be considered within the HHH vs HBK feud. Of course Flair had maybe one or two 3-ways in all his life but none with Rhodes, but still those 2 matches (WM and Backlash) should be taken into account IMO.

So you're saying HHH never had a great match with HBK? That's really mature and intelligent for a Mod.

My feelings exactly. You've got to be kidding.

Goody for me I held out on buying the current edition, but I'm still gonna have to sleep on it. If I find it around $24-$25 then I'd get it. The "flying car" skit I already dowloaded from Smith's website, but a new transfer should be sweet.

That's what made the spot brilliant. HBK couldn't put UT away so he saw an opening to escape when they took the cameraman out. Terrific booking. I know I'm in the minority here, but I've liked his run. It's not like he's having awful matches. He's had very good matches with pretty much all his opponents, worked very hard, so why should he go? Because smarks bitch about his buddy-buddy status with HHH? Or because he's supposedly holding back other favorites like Jericho and such? I just don't get it.

I'm not implying it's the crowds fault. I'm just saying that if they aren't into the match then it can look boring even if it isn't. Example of this? Latter 2002 (was it Armaggeddon 2002 maybe?), Benoit vs Guerrero. Pretty good match IMO, but you could hear a pin drop during the match. edit: spelling

That is my understanding, too, having watched every HIAC match except this one. Like I said, I haven't seen this show yet, but I'm sorta surprised that most posters here are ready to throw the match (and pretty much the whole show) to the crapper. I seems the local crowd didn't help matters either, according to other sites. Then again, with all the HBK/HHH hate going on here, I shouldn't be really surprised.

I haven't seen the PPV yet, so please excuse my ignorance on the topic, but am I to understand that since the HIAC match didn't have any big spots a la Foley then it was no good? What about the intensity of the match, the violence, etc? Was that absent, too? I checked a few wrestling sites and most are saying it was a pretty good match that needed no big holy shit spot, but I come to this board and nearly everybody is calling it the worst match ever, so what is it?

So basically you're saying that Bret storming out of the ring with an angry face and pulling down his straps was done only as a good-will gesture towards Shawn because he didn't want to hog the glory of the moment. Riiiight... Well, that's your take on the matter, and I respect it, even though I don't accept it. For my money, both would have come out of the match extremely better if the had a handshake showing mutual respect. Remember it was face vs face, so that's not out of the question. And hey, of course I know it's all a work, but still, those are little things that either take away or give something extra to the matches.

And just to make a more complete comparison, I'll list the winners from the PWTorch newsletter with runner-ups (if available). Only from 1989 - 2002. If anybody can complete the list from the on please do so. 1989 Flair vs Steamboat (2/20/89), RU: Flair/Steamboat (4/02/89) 1990 Sothern Boys vs Midnight Xpress (7/08/90), RU: Warrior vs Hogan (WMVI) 1991 Sting/Luger vs Steiners (5/19/91), RU: Hart vs Hennig (8/26/91) 1992 Pillman vs Liger (2/29/92), RU: Royal Rumble (1/19/92) 1993 Flair vs Vader (12/28/93), RU: Vader vs Cactus Jack (10/25/93) 1994 Michaels vs Ramon (WMX), RU: Gringos Locos vs Santo/Octagon (11/06/94) 1995 Michaels vs Ramon (8/27/95), RU: Michaels vs Jarret (7/23/95) 1996 Austin vs Hart (11/17/96), RU: Michaels vs Diesel (4/28/96) 1997 Michaels vs Undertaker (10/05/97), RU: Hart vs Austin (WMXIII) 1998 Undertaker vs Mankind (6/28/98), RU: Michaels vs Austin (WMXIV) 1999 Edge/Christian vs Hardys (10/17/99), RU: Van Dam vs Lynn (5/14/99) 2000 Rock vs HHH (5/21/00), RU: Cactus Jack vs HHH (1/23/00) 2001 Austin vs HHH (2/25/01), RU: Rock vs Angle (2/25/01) 2002 Angle/Benoit vs Edge/Mysterio (10/20/02)

I'm pretty sure Angle/Benoit was #1 runner up on PWI, I'll have to check it back at home. Still, it's supposed to be a FAN VOTE, so maybe more people saw the Lesnar/Angle Iron Man on SD! that the RR2003 match. And regarding the Observer and PWI comparisons, remember the WON includes wrestling from Japan and Mexico in their rankings. PWI practically never does that.

It's loved because it's a pretty good match. WON (or was it PWTorch?) had it highly ranked for that year IIRC, but not quite enough to be number 1. Still, you're quite right regarding PWI. I'm not sure anymore which awards were fixed and which weren't. This coming from a long-time PWI subscriber, before I discovered the internet.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. You can't mean to tell me that Bret shaking hands with Shawn after WMXII would've taken the focus off Shawn. If so, then why the hell did he HUG Davey Boy after SummerSlam? That's a heat killer for sure, right? Or what about after Bret beat Randy Savage on that Japanese tour in 93 or 94. He shook the Macho Man's hand there, so did he steal the spotlight from him? All I'm saying is it would have been a huge sign of respect to the new champion. But instead he left bitter and saying that he never knew about overtimes or the like. He said that on an article in WWF magazine that was published in 1996, but I seem to recall he had a few OT wins over Owen when they had those marathon matches when Bret was champ. That's what I was talking about. Thanks for the info.

Hmmm, I seem to remember an ad on WWF magazine advertising the IYH:Final Four PPV way before the "lost my smile" incident, but with Shawn, Bret, Sid, and Austin on it, not Vader. I might be wrong, though.

Serves Bret right, since he didn't want to properly put over Shawn at WMXII and left the ring like a sore loser. Also, I read that Sid was scheduled to win the Title again (??) on that thursday show, so at what point would Shawn have reclaimed the Title. At Final Four?