Tim Cooke

The 5/22 Gen Next v Briscoes/Walters/Rave is probably ***-***1/4ish. Ran WAY too long, had some good work mixed with some sloppy work. The 6/12 trios, 7/23 trios, and 7/24 tag are all HUGE IMPROVEMENTS on the 5/22 match.

04/16/04 - Bryan Danielson v Rocky Romero (New Japan USA) 04/24/04 - Bryan Danielson v Homicide (Ring of Honor) 06/12/04 - Shelley & Aries & Strong v Walters & Stryker & Rave (ROH) 06/12/04 - C.M. Punk v Samoa Joe (ROH) 06/24/04 - Bryan Danielson v Austin Aries (ROH) 07/23/04 - Aries & Strong & Evans v Walters & Stryker & Jacobs (ROH 07/24/04 - Rocky Romero v Chad Collyer (ROH) 07/24/04 - Strong & Evans v Walters & Stryker (ROH) 08/07/04 - Bryan Danielson v Austin Aries (ROH) 09/16/04 - Bryan Danielson v AJ Styles (IWA-MS) 09/18/04 - Bryan Danielson v Mike Quakenbush (IWA-MS) Those are the best matches I have seen from 2004. 06/24/04 Bryan Danielson v Jack Evans is a super fun match so I would recommend going out of your way to see that one as well.

"Well, clearly to each his own. I think putting Hero/Danielson under *** is a little ridiculous, as is Mike Rome saying on the DVD boards something to the effect of Hero constantly having bad matches. But to each his own, I guess, and that's why star ratings are subjective. I've become a real Hero fan, and others aren't, so I can live with that." I don't get the Hero fascination to be honest with you. I have my quirky likings as well. Mascarita Sagrada 2000 and Mini Abismo Negro are two guys who I believe are top 10 wrestlers in the world right now. But since they wrestle a different style and are in a promotion that sucks, I can easily see why people might shun off my suggestion of them being world class workers. To me, Hero is dry, bland, and has the little to no charisma. When he does show some charisma, it seems forced to me. But character isn't my number one fascination with a wrestler either, so let's move on to his wrestling. I do get that he likes to try to out wrestle his opponents, thus not using strikes. His story is that he is hesistant to use strikes and would rather out wrestle his opponent than get into a striking war with him. I can accept that, even if it doesn't do anything for me. But then when he starts selling his opponents strikes badly and starts winning those striking wars against his opponent, he loses me. If the story of a *particular* match was that his mat work was just getting him no where so he turned to striking to gain an advantage, my point would be null and void. Yet I have seen him do this in numerous matches where the feeling out process is filled with no story and meaningless mat work that goes no where, only for Hero to win a striking contest after the mat work segment in complete. See the Hero v Punk match from 6/11/04 for a huge example of this. As for what Hero does during matches: I'll give him credit, his move set is unique. On 8/21 against Danielson, he even added a snap suplex and one other move that is escaping me to his otherwise unique move set. Then on 9/15 against Danielson, he just went back to the same unique move set. So what's the problem with this? Small move sets are perfectly fine. Kawada, at his height of work, had a small move set compared to most. Yet he was able to get the most out of it. So it isn't Hero's small move set that is bothering me. It is the way he goes about building to his bigger moves. I like mat work as much as anyone. Destroyer and Backlund are two people I could watch work matches on the mat forever. But they always built their mat work up in order to logically progress to their bigger moves. I don't see that from Hero. The cravate is a fine hold and all, but wouldn't it make more sense to build from elbow drops, leg drops, knee drops on the neck, to mid range offense like a piledriver, swinging neckbreaker, bulldog, to the high end moves such as the Hero's welcome and the Hangmen's clutch? Instead, I see Hero wanting to be methodical and take a lot of time not really doing anything in building to the later points of the match. Instead of "working" on the hold (which would be the neck in this example) like Terry Funk would do, he is more comparable to Dory Funk Jr., working the hold in an acceptable fashion but failing to really work the hold by cranking the neck, not using the low and mid range offense, and showing little emotion. Acceptable? Sure. Signs of a worker as great as Hero is pimped? I would argue against that. "I guess I can say that if you're a Hero fan you'll love this match with Dragon. I'm sure you liked it less, Tim, because Dragon was in control for less of the time here compared to their 8/21 match, and since you don't like Hero you didn't like the match as much." I disagree. I have liked plenty of matches featuring wrestlers I don't particularly care for. Muto comes to mind. His G1 Climax finals against Chono in 1991 and Hashimoto in 1995 are clearly excellent matches, and he deserves a ton of credit for putting those matches on. But when he decides to lazy around against Takada at the Dome in 01/96, it sucks. I have seen some Hero matches that I like. The Hero v Joe match reached about ***1/4 for me. 8/21 v Danielson was around *** for me. Any match over *** these days for me is a keeper. "But I like the story the last two matches have told; on 8/21, Danielson dominated Hero when in Highland (where Hero has been "cursed" lately), causing Hero to get away from "wrestling" and try to outstrike Danielson and take some risks, only to be caught off the top rope with an armbreaker into the Cattle Mutilation for the loss." Agreed, I liked that match as well. Not a MOTYC or anything, but it was in the solid range. "On 9/15, when not in Highland, it was more of Hero's match, yet he was still not able to get the win over Dragon. I like the subtleties to this slow building storyline." But why would Hero wrestle differently in Highland? I understand he is cursed but wouldn't that motivate him to work harder (theorhetically) and work a different style everywhere? I like slow building storylines as well (see Kawada's story from 1988-1996 as an example) but I am lost on elements of this story. If he is wary of Highland and wants to wrestle more fiercly to try to pull out a win, that's fine but what is the difference wrestling in wrestling in Highland rather than Evansville? Do they explain that, other than he is on a losing streak in Highland. If I were a Boston Red Sox player, I would much rather play at home because Yankee Stadium is comprised of idiot New Yorkers (pardon my NY hate for this discussion). But that is a clear storyline. Unless they give some storyline reason for Highland being cursed to Hero, wrestling a slow methodical build in one city and then not doing it in Highland puzzles me. "But just like I said that if you liked Sydal/Styles the first time you'd love it again here, if you are a fan of Chris Hero's work, you'll love the 9/15 match with Danielson. (Not to mention the 9/16 tag match with Hero/Nigel vs. Shelley/Strong). If you're not, then don't bother. It's as simple as that." I have to still watch the tag. I am just interested in why Hero is regarded so highly when I see Matt Stryker being able to work the mat just as well, show more babyface charisma than Hero, and have just as good of a move set. Yet people would call me crazy for comparing Stryker to Hero but I haven't heard any logic that would make me even think about changing my mind. Tim

*snip* all the openers as I didn't have any interest in them. "Match six: Arik Cannon d. Roderick Strong: A good hard hitting match, but I was really disappointed that this only went a little over 8 minutes. Lots of suplexes and strikes, so if you like that stuff you'll love this match. I really wish they gave them 15 minutes or more, though. **1/2" I thought this was nothing more than an 8 minute spot fest. No thought, no reason for why they were doing what they were doing. Throwing out released suplexes for the heck of it isn't my cup of tea. "Match seven: Claudio Castagnoli d. Alex Shelley with a variation sleeper hold: Double C comes out in an aqua blue sui and tie and black pants. Wrestling in a sleeveless dress shirt and tie can't be fun. This is just a great 11-12 minute match, with tons of fun mat work, non-stop wrestling and action, and good selling, psychology, and pacing. I wish they got more time, but since they only had 11-12 minutes they just go non stop the whole way through, with very little wrestling. This is a super fun match, it'll be fun to watch it again. ***3/4" I liked Double C coming out in a suit. And then he started wrestling in the shirt and tie. This was okay and easily better than the previous match but it just felt like an exhibition. It wasn't as bad asthe first half of Hero v Quakenbush which really looked like they were dancing and were going to do the Esseban/Kamen dancing spot, only for real. I love Lucha and goofiness doesn't bother me if it is done in some kind of reasonable way, but the stuff that Double C and Shelley did here didn't click. If I want "technical wrestling" that some people have called this, I will just watch U-Style. "Match eight: AJ Styles d. Matt Sydal with a Styles Clash on the third or fourth try to hit it. Really good junior heavyweight style match. If you saw their match at Simply the Best 5, this is a lot like that, so if you liked that don't even worry about any star ratings, I guarantee you'll love this. The pacing is very fast, the selling and psychology is rather minimal, but the action is very fun and hard hitting. Sydal's spiked rana on Styles here is absolutely sick. The crowd absolutely loved it, so they obviously did something right! ***1/2" The first half of this match had me thinking they were really going to produce the match that people had been screaming was so good. Their April match was nothing more than indy innovation spots. Nothing wrong with a spot fest but there are tons of other workers who can work them better. Style and Sydal started with a nice, slower build. But once they took off, Styles was able to control himself but Sydal went crazy and anything that was done early to build to the high spots was vanished when Sydal just went nuts with variations of variations of variations of moves. Some looked okay but others just felt so out of place. "Match nine: 2/3 falls, Bryan Danielson and Chris Hero wrestled to a draw at 1 fall apiece. They stretch the SHIT out of each other to start. Danielson gets the first fall with a nice pinning combination at 15:00. It's a really different match from the Highland one, as Hero is in control a lot more, and isn't blatantly outwrestled by Dragon like in that match." Hero was in control for a lot of the first fall and sure did make it "his" type of match. Slow and methodical. Slow and methodical work is perfectly fine for me and I would even go as far to say I would rather two workers build a match to the point where all the nearfalls make the fans go crazy since they are built to logically. I just don't see that kind of stuff from Chris Hero. I also get the feeling that he is wrestling a "my way or the highway" mentality. "For the second fall they start to bring the hard strikes. Dragon works over Hero's left arm. Cannon comes to ringside to taunt Hero. Hero gets the second fall with a Hero's Welcome at 24:30, after Dragon had fought out of the Hangman's Clutch." I liked this fall a lot more as Danielson controlled the arm work with enough variety to keep it interesting. "The third fall they both take more chances. We see Dragon superplex Hero, and both guys miss top rope moves. Hero counters the Cattle Mutilation to the Hangman's Clutch which Dragon fights out of to an Indian deathlock/bridging chinlock submission. They then go to a double hangman's neckbreaker submission, and both men tap at the same time at 29:00." Third fall was okay for what it was, but the exchange of finishers was old when Benoit and Angle did it in January of '03. "Really, really, REALLY good match with a slightly goofy ending. I wish it was in front of a hotter crowd, too. But this is the match everyone expected them to do in Highland, I think. Great stuff. ****1/4" I thought this was worse than their Highland match. I am the world's biggest Bryan Danielson fan but his streak of ***+ matches since April of '04 (and probably before) ended here for me. It would re-start the next night with Styles (which was actually a pro-wrestling match based around heel/face elements and a structure that allowed for decent control sequences).

Jingus writes: "In a lot of posts and show reviews, I've noticed recently that the stiffer a match is, the more it tends to be praised." I don't know about that. The last reviews I have read from people who I actually believe have something worthwhile to say about wrestling praise matches due to smart work, selling, move set, etc. Jingus: "Why is that? Wrestling is fake, it's a work; we've all known that for years. What makes a match better when the wrestlers are legitimately beating the shit out of each other? I've seen guys like Samoa Joe, Super Dragon, Low-Ki, and so on be praised ridiculously by fans for how hard they hit other people. And I've known plenty of workers who actually pride themselves on stiffing the hell out of their opponents. To them, I say: try that on Tracey Smothers, and good luck surviving the night." If that is how they want to work, that is their choice. Whether or not they will actually achieve a worthwhile match or have a long term future is another question. Jingus: "To me, this is stupid. Hitting another guy REALLY hard may pop the crowd tonight, but it tends to cause injuries and shorten careers in the long term. To me, a lot of the stiffness marks are the modern-day equivalent of the "vampires" back in the ECW days of the 90s, guys who didn't give a shit about the show, the match, or the wrestlers; all they wanted to see was somebody bleed a lot. Lots of smart marks today seem like they'll bury a match unless it's stiff, and I think that attitude is selfish and physically unrealistic." I can almost agree with this if you are talking about reckless stiffness that Low Ki and Super Dragon have been known to produce. But working stiff doesn't equate to being unsafe. "Like the guys who'll claim that Kawada is the greatest wrestler of his time, and simply ignore the fact that he's obviously kicking guys right in the face way too hard." I believe he broke Misawa's orbital bone with a kick. I really don't see any other injuries from his "way too hard" kicks. Going with that track record, you could either say that Kawada's work is tight and stiff yet also safe or you could could lump Owen Hart and Steve Austin with Kawada, both of whom have hurt opponents to the point of career damaging injuries yet are "safe" workers by most standards. You can't have it both ways. And the "wrestler A said this and I am more inclined to believe him than you" is in one ear and out the other. Rey Jr. and Konan saying Sabu was the best wrestler back in 1996 is another one to add to the Terry Funk comment on Masato Tanaka. Keith took care of the name dropping. Question for you. Has Samoa Joe ever injured anyone with his "overly stiff" work? Tim

This is the THREAD of the day. I love it. When I get home from work today (where I get paid too!), I will watch some great Lance Storm matches and shun off watching anything with that too stiff Kawada character. Damn I wish I was in the business. Tim

Yea, Danielson/Shelley and Punk/Aries really does sound boring on paper. Tim

Besides the finals being an absolute disgrace, since I bet about 5% of the voters have actually seen ALL of the matches in the poll, the even BIGGER disgrace is the Angle/Benoit v Rey Jr./Edge tag match beating the Spring Stampede match easily.

"And anything Michrome writes isn't worth a damn to me." Your loss. "He's a RoH mutant" Nah, I see him as a fan of quality wrestling. Fun thread. Tim

"Thank you for being much less of a jackass than Tim Cooke was and just automatically assume that all of the match's faults are because Chris Hero "sucks"." I was a jackass for laying out my views and backing them up with details that actually occurred in the match? I re-watched the match again yesterday. It was a tad better than I initially had it, though Hero's faults are still there. Tim

I haven't seen a good TNA storyline that has had a beginning, middle, and an end. But when Russo is helping out, that is usually the case. The simplicity of the Paul London ROH World Title chase had a beginning (12/7/02 when he wins the #1 Contendership from Danielson), a middle filled with two title matches against Xavier, a 2/3 masterpiece against Danielson, a draw in the Round Robin Challenge II, and a #1 Contenders win over Styles to bring us to the end of a story, his last ROH match in which he loses to Samoa Joe and can't accomplish his quest. TNA will never come close to that simple yet so effective storyline. Tim

No, actually no one wants to work with a promotion where Leonard 316 runs around killing everyone and Vince Russo is spotlighted on all of the shows. Tim

Wasn't really slow. They built up the new group coming in, the 50,000 marked money, Claudette vs. Asavedo, etc. When you can fit that much into an opening episode, you know the season will rock. And 25 minutes comml free at the beginning is KILLER. Tim

The ultimate tag team would be Vic Mackey and Jack Bauer. They would be the world's greatest tag team. I just watched the first 2 seasons of The Shield over two weeks to get up to speed. My favorite drama on TV right with 24. 1. 24 2. The Shield 3. Curb Your Enthusiasm 4. Fawlty Towers 5. The Office Tim

Jesus Christ Dynamite. Get all that stuff ASAP. Tim

Taue's Nodowa Tim

vs. Bryan Danielson (12/7/02 - ROH) - awesome match that isn't as good as their 4/12/03 match, but it the match that made me a diehard fan of both London and Danielson. vs. Xavier (12/28/02 - ROH) - the best Xavier match ever. London is awesome in drawing crowd heat and has some of the most heated nearfalls in ROH history. vs. Samoa Joe (7/19/03 - ROH) - the best Samoa Joe match as London plays the babyface role perfectly and sells all of Joe's offense beautifully. Tim

"which Aja Kong used to break her neck 3 years earlier" I must have missed this. Tim

BTW, it would take all of 3 minutes to look it up in a history section. Tim

Dave O'Neill, #1 Journalists at the Smart Marks, gets another things wrong. Big surprise. Black Tiger I was NOT Eddy Guerrero. Marc Rocco was BT I. Guerrero was II. Siler King is III, though he is using that gimmick less than he did in 2001. Tim

Choken One said: "Dustin has NEVER been able to get over as Dustin Rhodes. EVER." Later in the thread, Choken One said: "well, when you get inserted into programs with the greatest workers of all time, You tend to pick up on things..." Beyond those statements, Dustin worked well in the following matches where his opponents/partners were not "world class wrestlers" at the time. vs. Steve Austin (Halloween Havoc 1991) - Austin, while already very good, was still developing like Rhodes was. They weren't good enough to put on a singles matches without having the lulls and downtime that disjointed the matches. w/ Ricky Steamboat vs. Arn Anderson/Larry Zybisko (11/19/91) - This is Steamboat's match but Dustin is not only over but he plays his role perfectly, hitting his moves well, playing the good partner on the outside waiting for Steamboat to tag, etc. w/ Windham/Simmons vs. Anderson/Eaton/Zybisko (1/21/92) - Dustin plays face in peril in this one and does a fantastic job of rallying the crowd before making the hot tag to Windham. w/ Windham vs. Austin/Zybsiko (2/29/92) - the pinnacle of Rhodes career as he brings charisma, energy, moves, and SELLING in this match. He plays face in peril for the second half of the match (WIndham takes the first) and does so marvelously, doing some fantastic selling on all 3 of Austin's lariat's. This under pimped match is better than any Shawn Michaels match. Rhodes at this point in his career was better than anything Randy Orton, John Cena, Kurt Angle, etc have or probably will produce. WarGames 1992 - he does his part well of playing a fired up babyface, then selling and bleeding a TON. Then you have the Dustin Rhodes vs. Vader (11/16/94) and vs. Bunkhouse Buck at Spring Stampede 1994 to show some more of his great work and overness. The myth about Rhodes sucking is just that, a myth. Don't know who started it, but Skeith promoted it and people seem to believe it without investigating it. Tim

The Nogueria/Fedor comp I had made has: Nog/Goodridge Nog/Coleman Nog/Herring Nog/Inoue Nog/Sapp Fedor/Schilt Fedor/Herring Nog/Schilt Nog/Henderson Nog/Fedor Fedor/Fujita Fedor/Goodridge Nog/Ricco Nog/Cro Cop Tim

If you are new to Pride, I would go the comp route. Get someone to make you a Best of Sakuraba Comp from Pride 2 - 13 with every fight in between. Also get a history of Nogueria/Fedor with all of their Pride matches which will build EPICALLY to 3/16/03 where they face each other and then into the summer and fall of 2003 where Fedor has fun squashes with Fujita (more than a squash actually) and Goodridge and Nog has a tough fight with Ricco and then Cro Cop. I would also suggest all of their work with RINGS. Tim

"I wouldn't say "a hell of a lot more." Clearly you haven't seen all of Chavo's stuff. I'll take Chavo on the mat over Knoble 7 days a week and twice on Sunday." I think Chavo is an excellent rudo for the flying lightweights but Noble is just as solid if not better on the mat than Chavo. From the little bit he has been able to do (a little bit from WCW in 2001 and the Super 8 2002 stuff), Noble has as much mat ability as Chavo. I would be willing to bet that if given the environment to shine in, Noble could be better than Bryan Danielson (the best worker in the world right now) on the mat. Tim

Christ, using SKeith as a reference. Tim