Dark Age

I entered this thread with high hopes after reading 'hope these are real'. I really thought Angle would win the title. Oh well, SD is dead to me now. Damn you JBL! BTW, could they be setting up Eddie vs Booker for Mania? I'd love to see that match but it's not going to be enough to make me buy THAT (supposed) card. And how weak is it that they're either going to turn Booker AGAIN, or turn the very over Eddie? WHY IS LONDON STILL ON VELOCITY?

This only works if Heidenreich never returns. If that is the case, then that's just fucking awesome. Great way to write someone out other than just pretending they never existed.

Both Orton/Venis matches, as well as Booker/Hardy, are as good as most of these matches as well.

Christian and Tyson Tomko beat Tajiri and Rhyno in a VERY fun 7 minute main event, which actually had me buying Tajiri beating Christian in a very close nearfall. Rhyno's really over. Shelton Benjamin beat Steven Richards in another decent, 6 minute match. Gene Snitsky squashed Danny Doring (announced as Williamson or something). Val Venis BEAT Viscera, surprisingly. Went about 4 minutes, and was probably the least horrible Viscera match I've seen since he returned. Still pretty bad though. Overall, it was an enjoyable edition of HEAT.

Lifted this idea from the Spider Twist~! message board aka airraidcrash. Seems a pretty obvious topic to do, and I haven't seen said topic around, so I'll do it. Anyway, question is simply: Best NA wrestler of all time; who is it? I guess one could make the same thread for the best wrestler - period - but I'm not the biggest puro fan ever, so alas. Anyway, we'll eventually narrow this down to a 65 man tournament (last two guys (64 and 65) "play off" for a place in the final 64). I don't know exactly HOW we'll narrow the choices down to 64 guys - maybe we could select a few judges who would pick between themselves from all of the nominations. Obviously, they'd have to have a good knowledge of North American wrestling, and any North American wrestlers. They also need to have a fucking clue what they're talking about. Anyone wants to be a judge, say so. Premise is simple: Nominate as many guys as you like (as long as they haven't already been nominated) and we'll go from there. This is judged SOLELY on wrestling ability. Not mic skills, not drawing ability, not anything. Just in-ring skills. There are a lot of guys who, once nominated, aren't really up for debate. Feel free to give reasons WHY you think wrestler A deserves a place in the last 65. It'll help us decide on wrestlers some people may not be too familiar with. There WILL be seeding once we get down to the last 65, but, again, we'll go over that when we get there. Anyway, my nominations: Bret Hart Steve Austin Vader Stan Hansen Chris Benoit Eddie Guerrero Rey Mysterio Davey Boy Smith Dynamite Kid Steve Williams British wrestlers are allowed, just because. If you have a problem with that, I don't care. Britain's America's bitch anyway, so it's ok. That'll be it for my picks - for now. I may post more later. Obviously, I've left a lot of guys out, so YOU fill in the blanks. NOMINATE AWAY~!!! (P.S. everyone post. Otherwise, shame on you)

Like who? Bulldog and DK? British wrestlers are allowed. I guess it should be NA (with Britain). My reason for allowing the Brits in was simply because, the majority, spent most of their time in North America. Granted, a lot of NA wrestlers spend their time in Japan, vice versa and a load of other places, but I think the Brits should be allowed. Rey Jnr. is debatable, but, in a judgment call, I think he qualifies due to his having SOME American in him (or at least being a citizen of it). You, on the other hand, have seemd to have entered guys with NO relation to North America - at all - just for the sake of it. As far as I know, LA Parka and Juvi don't qualify, nor does Santo. Of course, maybe I'm just mistaken on what you've said, but we'll see. Ok people, anyone who posts in here, SHOULD British wrestlers be allowed? And does Rey Jnr qualify?

Not really great, but Jamie Noble and Spanky had a ROCKING little 4 minute match on SD last year. The second match they had, in case anyone's wondering. I can't remember the time, but Frankie Kazarian and Chris Sbain had a sweet match on the Super X Cup show last year (about 7 minutes, I think). Nick Dinsmore vs Doug Basham (sometime in 2001) was probably the best 5 minute match I've ever seen. Booker T vs Lance Storm in 2000 was only about 4 minutes I think.

Ah right, sorry.

No, I meant: Why? Unless that was sarcasm I completely missed.

???? Still, thanks for taking the time to give us a report. Why? Maven hasn't been over for a good year now, and it doesn't look like that's going to change anytime soon.

The lack of love for Benoit/Snow from Double Tables is sickening. I understand that it was on the Benoit DVD, but I'd have much preferred it on here (they had a ton of stuff to work with for Benoit; it really wasn't that important). It's EASILY the smartest, most well worked match in ECW history (that I've seen). In fact, I'll watch it again shortly and comment further. Still... sickening.

Hogan was WAY better than Bradshaw will ever be.

Cena vs Bradshaw + Orton vs Triple H = Me not buying WrestleMania. In fact, ANYTHING that involves Bradshaw in the main event will not be purchased by me. Just job him at Armageddon and be done with it. Then, maybe, MAYBE he can have a run in the US Title division. But I did think his interview on last week's SD was GREAT.

What's with the shitty habit of having four matches? Four matches on a two hour show is terrible. Not only that, Heidenreich/Haas will probably be really quick and bad, and I doubt Chavo/Kidman and Cena/CCC went long. It's not even like they fill the rest of the time with anything important. They'll add about 30 minutes of recaps, dead time, etc. You could watch shows like these in 45 minutes, and you'd get EXACTLY the same point across. JBL remaining champion sucks, and it means I won't be watching SD this week, or any week untill he loses the belt. I am, however, interested in who beats him at Armageddon. Taker is highly unlikely (and why does he have a shot again anyway? He blew three challenges for the belt, shouldn't someone else get a chance? I want to say Booker will win, but then why didn't he just win at SurSer? Sadly, I think Eddie's going over and either jobbing to Angle at RR to set up Angle/Taker at Mania, or jobbing it himself to Cena at Mania. What's up with Chavo/Kidman already? Is London going to re-enter the picture in time for Armageddon? WHY, WHY, OH WHY is Spike Dudley still the cruiserweight champ? And if you're gonna keep him as the champ, why job him to fucking HARDCORE HOLLY??? Meh. The show sounds terrible.

The WWE Champion almost always loses at SurSer. 94 - Backlund beats Bret 95 - Bret beats Nash 96 - Sid beats Shawn 97 - Shawn beats Bret 98 - Rock wins title 99 - Big Show beats Triple H 00 - No Change 01 - Austin loses elimination match to Rock 02 - Big Show beats Brock 03 - Brock loses in elimination match to Benoit They usually send the crowd home happy as well, with the face going over in the main event. Booker HAS TO WIN. Another thing: Why are they Team Orton? Shouldn't it be Team Benoit? I mean, ok, they're pushing Orton. I don't care for it, but whatever. He's probably going to go over. Fine. But why on Earth would Orton be the captain over Benoit or Jericho? Just because he's getting pushed? Seriously, it's stupid.

No WAY is Edge 35.

Wow. That's all you can say for this one. He said that about Cena's FU at WM20. Despite the fact that EVERYONE had kicked out of the FU at that point.

No Nunzio or Shannon Moore? So, have they been released? Anyway, this shows sounds AWFUL. JBL had BETTER not go over Sunday. The only thing that has kept me watching this show over the past couple of weeks was the push of Booker, and his probable title win. No Booker T as Champion = No more me watching.

I don't think I can afford that. Anyway, my ideas: - Different presentation for both shows. Why should we care about the roster split when both shows are EXACTLY THE SAME. They were on to something when they moved King and JR in to the WCW Announcers position a couple of years back, but they never really added to it. Keep one show similar (but still a little bit of tweaking), but for the other, change EVERYTHING. Different camera angles, different set, different entrance, different ring, etc. - Rankings system. Obvious one. Top 5/10 rankings for every title. Angles, matches, storylines, character development. You can get ANYTHING from a ranking system. It's so simple yet so effective, but they've never put it into place. - Tale Of The Tape. It's the little things that count, and things like does, no matter how small, can really make a match seem much more important/ They started using it for a while on SD last year, but then dropped it for no reason at all. - In Ring Interviews. Falls under the 'different presentation idea'. Only use this on one show. Maybe put Gene Okerlund on SD and rather than do the contrived 'superstar comes out, gets interrupted, match is made' segment, you can have an actual interview instead. Easy way to introduce new characters, get existing ones over, and, once again, start new storylines. - Sit Down Interviews. Ala TNA. The in-ring segments are better at getting a character over, but these would be great for getting the 'wrestlers' over, for their character as well as their ability. This was missing from Benoit's title reign. Having JR sit down with Benoit for 5 or 10 minutes, talking about his life, his career, how much it meant for him to win the title, etc would have done wonders for him. Another: Use the black screen interviews that Benoit used 'back in the day'. - Time Limits. Give's it a more 'sporty' feel. WWE booking is so wishy washy that no one really gets over, and they rely on non-finishes and DQs to protect their stars. Problem is, it doesn't help get anyone over, and only makes you realise what a waste of time the match was. Having a mid carder hang on for a 10 minute draw with a guy above him could put him over big, without the established star losing a bit of heat, plus the match wouldn't be a waste of time. It's an easy way to add heat on a heel champion, by having them seem on the brink of defeat before the time limit expires. - Different divisions. SD has the cruiserweight division, Raw the womens division (who's got the better deal there?). Give both shows different styles. SD as a whole, not just the cruisers, should be fast paced and exciting with a technical style in the main event. Raw can be more about a traditional heavyweight style, with more emphasis on psychology, story telling and 'build'. Obviously, there will be exceptions on both shows, and everyone shouldn't wrestle the same, but the point stands. - Speaking of which: No more WWE style! I can't stress that enough. EVERYONE WRESTLES THE SAME! Enough! - Make titles mean something. Why is it that only the guy feuding with the champ wants the belt? Everyone should want to be World Champion, so why is it only Orton who seems to want to win on it on Raw, and Booker on SD? Shelton Benjamin won the IC Title - so what? Why is Jericho above him on the card? Why doesn't Jericho care he's lost his belt? Why has Benjamin not even commented on his title win? WHY does Orton want to be World Champion so much? Why did Orton win the title a month after losing the IC belt? - Charcter development. Should be obvious, but as someone in this thread already said, more emphasis on characters than gimmicks. Heidenreich's a psycho. Why? What's his background? Mordecai wanted to do the Lord's work. Why? What's his reasoning? The little things are what count.

So, I guess they weren't cut. Anyone missing from that card who should raise suspicion?

I'm still reeling that Dark Age actually used this in a pro-Booker arguement. The match was awful. AWFUL. Both guys dogged it and, save for the Spinaroonie, the crowd seemed pretty quiet for a British crowd. You sure on that? I'll admit, I haven't seen the match in a while, but I remember liking it A LOT and it seemed like the crowd was super hot. Maybe I'll watch it again and see. So, he's a whiner for wanting to retire because of a serious back problem? Erm... yeah, okay.

Train was Baldo in Memphis, hence the BaldoBomb. Shit, there are SO many worthless workers they could have released before Train. Seriously, Luther, Tomko, Heidenreich, Suzuki and Fertig all have jobs, but they release A-Train? Bah. Gunn I don't care about.

Yeah, Stevie Ray will do that. What does this have to do with Edge being better than Booker? Bradshaw is being pushed over Eddie. Does that mean he's better? Arguable, but, I'll admit, Booker's arsenal is severely toned down these days. Are you not the same guy who once claimed Paul London was no good because of his "indy offense"? How can you say THAT with a straight face when talking about Edge's moveset? I'm not gonna bother with the mic skills argumant, as I think Edge is a good speaker, but Booker CAN be good on the mic as well. All I'll say is the Booker/Goldust skits were better than the E & C skits. And you still haven't proven how Booker's performance at Mania was lacklusture.

So.. how is THAT a lacklusture performance by Booker T?

Booker T is like 40-41 isn't he? How old is Taker? Triple H? Shawn? Benoit? Eddie? They've all got to be 35+ (at the youngest) right? In other words, he hasn't worked a good match in his entire WWE run? How about when he dropped the WCW Title to Angle? Or his early 2002 match with Austin? How bout carrying Triple H to the best match he had in almost 2 years? His other matches with Angle in 2001? His SS01 match with Rocky(underrated)? A couple of bouts with Jericho in 2001? His Rebellion02 match with Matt Hardy? His Heat match with Matt Hardy this year? The Raw rematch with Triple H(one of the best Raw matches of the year)? His title win over Christian? Insurrextion03 with Christian? His match with Eddie this year? There. Just gave you a list of "realistic" good Booker T matches in his WWE run. That's not even TOUCHING any of his WCW 99-01. Of course, I'm sure you'll tell me that these matches sucked or he was carried, etc.