Hunter's Torn Quad
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Posts posted by Hunter's Torn Quad
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Shawn was just great in that segment - though it won't happen, I'm kind of rooting for him to break the streak.You never know in this business.
While you do 'never know', this is one you can put money on.
And I'm glad to see this played out as well as it read; the whole angle played masterfully.
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Russo had to build Austin from "The Ringmaster" first. He had to build Foley from a gimmick. When Russo started, he basically had the following as legit stars: Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, and Undertaker. IIRC, he came on after Diesel & Razor left. In terms of Stephanie, it seems she too gets a lot of blame when it sounds like some of the stuff comes from Brian Gerwitz in particular. Just a random note.Russo didn't get on the writing team until February of 1997, by which time Austin had been 'Stone Cold' for almost a year, and Russo was made head writer around the time Austin won the WWF title. It's more than a stretch to claim Russo 'built' Austin; Austin was already there. Foley's career making feud with The Undertaker was in 1996, before Russo was put on the writing team.
It's largely ironic that Russo almost built every star and Stephanie is very underrated in this area (Cena, Edge?, Orton, Batista). Austin originally came in as "The Ringmaster" but still became a mega star... the end result is all that matters.If Russo created stars in the WWF, the fact he failed miserably trying to do the same in WCW shows who deserves the real credit.
But in Russo's defense, Mankind came in with a bizarre gimmick and feuded with Undertaker (and got the best of him). He helped slide Austin into a round table feud involving Hart, Undertaker, Michaels, and Vader all at once.Most of this happened either before Russo was even on the writing team or before he was head writer.
Angle is the true genius and it's looking from other posts like that may've been Brian Gerwitz insteadWhich is why Gewirtz has had such great success in recent years?
And at times, it was getting ratings regardless of what the hardcores wanted.But was killing PPV buys, which is where the money is made.
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Kreski provided great continuity and product of good-to-great quality that holds up today. Vince had to sign off on it all, but he did the same with every head writer yet the results are quite different. Russo got high ratings, but product quality wasn't all that great and a lot of his stuff doesn't age well at all. Stephanie hasn't shown either high ratings or consistent product quality. Of those three head writers, I'd take Kreski over Russo or Stephanie any day.
Yes, Kreski had a boatload of talented names to work with. So did Russo and Stephanie, with Russo having Austin at his peak and Stephanie having him for his big return. Kreski had Austin to work with for about a month before Austin was sidelined and Kreski was gone when Austin returned. Whose work holds up better? Whose work is of an overall higher standard?
You can question who Kreski built up, but WWE has, for some time, shown that they'll rarely build anyone up unless they have to. Even if you take the position that Kreski didn't build anyone up, WWE hasn't exactly been forward thinking in that department since he left, either. Cena's only around because Stephanie happened to catch his rap act on a tour bus. If not for that, Cena was set to be let go.
The tag teams never really went further than the mid card level and largely resorted to gimmick matches (Tables, TLC) to keep the division hot.Vince has never seen tag teams as main event players, so you can't blame that one on Kreski.
Russo's gift was his ability to take a proven guy like Mankind and throw him into a feud with an established WWF star like an Undertaker.Aren't you downplaying Kreski's contribution for doing exactly the same thing?
He (Russo) tried to do this in WCW at times as well: Kidman and Hogan, Bam Bam Bigelow and Goldberg, Booker T and Scott Steiner but all of his other lame gimmicks and ideas killed any chance of those helping turn WCW around.What killed it is that Russo is strictly an ideas man; when having to actually book, he's consistently shown to be totally clueless.
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Something about that horrible Rock Bottom ppv that sort of killed the fun-Russo era and started the convoluted-notsofun-Russo era.Was it the beyond horrible screwjob in the Mankind/Rock title match? That finish killed the crowd so dead they were silent for Austin's match that followed, and an Austin match with no heat simply didn't happen then.
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Yeah, I'll give him that too, since that's been a pet peeve of mine since I was little. The highlight of his run for me was the HHH/Angle/Steph stuff, and a lot of it was because of the continuity. Even with that, I wouldn't put his run over Russo's circa 98 or even Heyman era Smackdown.I think I'll vote for the guy whose stuff holds up today.
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Kane needs a break first. Give him six months off and have him slim down a bit and grow his hair back out. Before he leaves, he could cut a promo on how he doesn't have the heart to keep up this facade anymore. He admits that he has always known he was not disfigured or burned, and that he has been shaving his hair this way for the past several years just to play a character. He doesn't have the desire for it anymore, and he's going home.The night has come for Kane's debut, and he is brought out to the top of the ramp on a throne carried by druids while (face wrestler) is in the ring. He has medium length hair, his goatee is back, and he is wearing a black version of the mask he had last. He is wearing a dark robe and no glove. He sits on his throne glaring at the audience and his followers as his new music plays. He cuts a promo saying that he is ready to return due to finally being able to be himself. He says that his life has been full of torment, and he lives in his own personal Hell. However, he rules that Hell with an iron fist, and he unleashes that Hell on the WWE starting tonight. By raising a hand, Minion and Lucipher rise from their kneeling positions beside his throne and make their way to the ring. They get in the ring and fight with (face wrestler), who puts up a decent fight. He turns around into a Kane uppercut, however. Kane brings him to his feet and levels him with (new finishing move). Kane's followers take (face wrestler) backstage with them.
The next week, that wrestler is re-christened as a follower of Kane (a la Undertaker's Ministry days). Kane cuts a promo and says that this may seem familiar, as his brother used to do something similar. He says that he and his brother have a lot of parallels in their wrestling careers. However, he has never won the big matches like his brother, and the one time that he lucked into the title in a First Blood match, he didn't possess it longer than 24 hours. However, his brand of Hell has him as the unquestioned ruler, and to rule in the wrestling world means you hold the championship. He will "convert" one of our beloved wrestlers one at a time until he is given his rightful shot at the title.
Personally, I would have Kane lose the match and be banished by Undertaker. At the next Wrestlemania, Taker finally loses and is getting beat down after the match just to cement even further the rub that the wrestler who ended his streak will get. Kane comes out for the save, he and Undertaker hug, and Taker announces that he is retiring from wrestling now that his streak has ended. Paul Bearer comes out with the urn, the lights go out, and when they come back, Kane and Taker are both gone.
It starts with Kane essentially breaking kayfabe by admitting he was playing a character, to let us know the Kane character is fake, but then returns as an even weird character the he wants us to believe is really him? And then he goes back into kayfabe by referring to the Undertaker as his brother? And the idea presented for Undertaker's farewell? Thankfully, this will stay a fantasy. Unless Russo reads the boards, because this thing would appeal to him greatly.
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So great but also so sad.
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Two words: storyline continuity.
Which reminds of the time they actually did bring in a continuity editor a year or two later, who promptly quit after a few weeks because there was such a total lack of continuity.
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Glad to see someone wanted to give a shit about Juvi.
Seriously, Juvi is right up there in terms of people who have squandered their talents with a horrible attitude.
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Benoit was also far superior to Tazz in the ring and had a great reputation in terms of ability, safety, etc.Safety? I've never understood that complaint about Taz. Who did he ever actually hurt? Considering the number of rough matches Taz worked with Sabu, it's ironic that Benoit was the one who broke Sabu's neck. His stuff just looks dangerous, and I imagine the Undertakers and HHHs of the world taking one look at his suplexes and going "fuck that, I ain't going up for that shit".
As you said, his stuff looks dangerous and that's all that really matters. Remember the scene from Beyond the Mat, when Mike Modest hits, ironically, Finlay's Celtic Cross, and Vince thinks he botched the move?
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Was Vince really considering Zeus vs Hogan for the Main Event at WMVI?No. It was planned to be Hogan/Warrior for a long time, probably back to when the decision was made to have Warrior squash HTM for the IC title.
Shawn does not mention Davey's dying sister at all. Not even once. He makes it out to sound like Bulldog did not want to lose because it was in the U.K.Which makes you wonder how much Shawn really has changed.
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There are many reasons. As mentioned, Hogan was still around and was still presented as the real star of the show; Warrior was never really pushed as the promotional figurehead. He also didn't have any strong heels to face. His main house show foes were Mr Perfect and Rick Rude, two heels who nobody took seriously as WWF title contenders as it is, plus Warrior had already vanquished Rude the year before, so nobody expected him to win anyway. After those two were done with, Warrior was put in six-man tags with LOD against Demolition, which didn't help. Ironically, it was only in the last few months of his run, when the decision would already have been made to take the belt off of him, that Warrior got a real 'name' house show opponent in the form of Randy Savage. But that didn't work too well for Warrior, as Savage beat him a bunch of times, albeit by count out. It also didn't help that Warrior was all ring entrance and nothing else. Hogan wasn't great in the ring, but he was charismatic enough and smart enough to still engage the people and cover up his limitations. Warrior lacked the intelligence to cover his flaws and his charisma didn't do it either, probably because he just too terrible in the ring that even his charisma couldn't cover for it.
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In fact, if it weren't for Vince's funding, ECW would have died a lot sooner than it did. I remember two months in early 1998 when they couldn't pay anyone.$1000 or so a week is not funding ECW. The idea Vince 'funded' ECW is way overblown.
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Strong ratings and a product that holds up today, at least from a quality stand point? Yeah, I'd say that's at least a better than average run...
Eh... it seems a little "easy" to say that he had no control over it when he was the head writer under McMahon.Key point; he was head writer under Vince, so anything Vince or the family were involved, they would have been in charge in. Not to mention the fact that Vince was the one to sign off on everything so ultimately, as it always is, the blame or credit goes to Vince.
December 13th, 1999: The Mae Young/Mark Henry stuff really kicked off. Again, well after Russo was long gone and at WCW. This was all Kreski, regardless if McMahon had the final say or not.That one you probably can blame on Vince. Even if you disregard the fact that it's the type of humor he gets off on, they were trying to run Mark Henry off with that Mae Young stuff. It wasn't like the Henry/Young stuff was written with the idea it would make good TV or anything, even if Vince might have thought otherwise; it was written so as to get Henry to quit.
Fair enough on Test and Tazz but Kreski still could've developed Tazz into something. Heck, they had a brief run of Tazz vs. Austin later so it's hard to say that McMahon is the sole reason he never would've done anything. Kreski was pushing Benoit & Jericho just fine during that period. Tazz is listed at 5'9" while Benoit was 5'11" so there wasn't a huge difference, height wise (looks obviously were different though)The problem with this is: they didn't want Tazz suplexing people on their heads, the top guys weren't going to take his suplexes anyway, and what they did with Tazz as the plucky underdog is the role Vince wanted him to play. Regardless of what they 'could' have done with Tazz, those three factors, the last one especially, made it unlikely that anything other than what ended up happening was going to happen. Benoit was only a few inches taller, that is true. But Benoit was also far superior to Tazz in the ring and had a great reputation in terms of ability, safety, etc. You can't really compare Benoit and Tazz, because in the minds of Vince and those would have to work with them, they could do more with Benoit and were willing to do more anyway.
As for the Right To Censor, it came from McMahon but Kreski still had to put it into action. Head writer and all.It was Vince's pet project and he was hands on and was able to put it on air regardless of what anyone said. Company owner and all.
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Looking dangerously close to attractive:
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Some of this stuff is why I don't consider Chris Kreski that great of a booker. People put the blame on Steph being named head writer, but I think Kreski was still head writer when the Austin return angle semi tanked with Rikishi and the Angle/Steph/HHH deal petered out.Kreski left in the middle of September 2000. WWF was still on USA when he left. He was gone before they even started Foley's investigation about who ran Austin over.
I think Unforgiven was Kreski's last show. After that, Stephanie took over. She was at the helm when Rikishi was revealed as the driver and the one who let the love triangle die with no resolution. HHH probably persuaded her to kill it because he admittedly doesn't like being a babyface.
Unforgiven was Stephanie's first show as head writer.
I hate talking about the love triangle storyline because the ending really pissed me off. It was an awesome storyline that slow built over almost a year and was right on the cusp of being one of the best of the modern era. And then it gets squandered because of ego. I think this one turned off a lot people, at least in terms of getting emotionally invested in angles, because they'd spent nine or ten months on this one only to get the one ending they absolutely did not want instead of the one that virtually everybody was dying for.
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I like how the crowd demanded HBK's help during the Orton/HHH/Steph deal. That's not his current storyline, folks!It sounded to me like they were chanting for Cena near the end.
As for Matt 'admitting' to setting Jeff's house on fire, etc, in the original interview he did admit to it all but, as usual, they changed direction from the taping of the show to it's airing and edited that part out. I think they realized that even that was a little too much for wrestling.
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When Lawler challenged Jericho, did he at least explain why he just stood there and watched Jericho beat up Flair?
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The only thing that I didn't like about end angle was the use of the sledgehammer, but I hate the sledgehammer anyway. Other than that, the Orton/HHH/Stephanie angle was gold. It put a ton of heat on Orton and almost single handedly salvaged the storyline. The Jericho beatdown of Flair was great, although Lawler looked bad just standing there and complaining about it without stepping in; if he was going to get physically involved anyway, by challenging Jericho, why not get involved earlier instead of just watching Flair get the shit kicked out of him for five minutes.
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I personally expect Big Show to leave Mania with the beltDo you know the difference between 'expect' and 'prefer'? I don't think anybody expects Big Show to win. I'd put his odds at about 5%, with Edge having 45% and Cena 50%.
Nobody expects Show to walk out as champion which means he's got a good shot of doing so.
Stephanie needs to get punted into the stratosphere. The build up to WM has been very underwhelming this year, with the Orton/HHH build being particularly haphazard.
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Hadn't they already done that? Or does this just mean the one-off appearances like the Machine Guns had made in the past are done with?TNA talent had been available for one-shot appearances, but that's gone now. No more TNA talent in ROH.
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Mike Johnson is reporting that, to no surprise, TNA have pulled their talent from ROH because of the HDNet show.
Has anyone got a link to somewhere to download the first show?
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Bret has never shut up about SS 97 and he won't stop complaining about. Vince did worse things to his family but he'll never get over Survivor Series. I think this this is bad because you shouldn't hold a grugde for so long and I think that Shawn has changed over the last decade.It's actually Vince that can't get over it. How many times has he used the Montreal ending in the storylines now? For all the talk of Bret's whining, he doesn't really talk about it as much as people think now, and has said in the past he's sick of people bringing it up. He's obviously pissed at Shawn and WWE for a lot things, and the screwjob is just one of them, rather than the main reason.
This was also talked about at The Board, and Meltzer posted about it:
From someone who talked with him regularly, Bret rarely brought up Montreal except for something to joke about after his stroke. He'll go off when prodded but the idea he can't let it go is something I would strongly disagree with.When they tried to work everyone with the idea he was going to show up for the Hogan-Shawn match, he didn't care at all.
WWE kept it going as long as they could, until about two years after nobody else cared.
Shawn's statement was clearly to get a reaction. Not a chance in hell he wants that, nor that Vince would allow it. In the end, it's Vince's choice, not Shawn's.
Austin, a tons bigger star than Shawn, chose JR first, got turned down, then chose Flair, got turned down, because it was Vince's call.
I know we'll get the people still insisting Bret 'can't get over Montreal', but that's straight from someone spoke to Bret regularly, and would know better than most.
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I always thought it was silly how McMahon was so dominant in their ppv match. When you compared it to previous McMahon matches where he was dominated by other wrestlers, it made Flair look weak for awhile, atleast to me.It was a surprise that Flair actually won that one, as Vince had previously stated that if he and Flair ever wrestled that he (Vince) would have to win as Vince was too big for anyone to believe that Flair could really beat him.
Wretling gimmicks in 2009
in General Wrestling
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That really stuck out for me during the Legacy beatdown of Triple H on Raw this past Monday. Their ring gear looked identical, with the same basic shape, same basic color, etc. Their physiques all looked similar too. It was like watching four clones, at varying stages of development.