World's Worst Man

You might be right about that, but the PPVclearly wasn't all WWE style. While Benoit vs. Guerrero and Rey vs. Psicosis was typical WWE-style drivel, Awesome vs. Tanaka and the main event really weren't. Even at the peak of TLC, they weren't doing the same kind of crazy spots Awesome and Tanaka were doing, and I've certainly never seen a WWE brawl that looked like the main event. As I remember it, the PPV was pretty poor for the first half, other than Super Crazy's dive. Starting from the Awesome-Tanaka match, it finally started feeling like a real ECW show.

So are these people WWE marks? Because the WWE is about as fake and contrived as they get. Oh wait, the fake and contrived WWE matches get praised as MOTYCs. I'm sorry. What's with this trend of guys trashing other workers, even if those workers are superior? First it's Triple H and CM Punk, now Batista and AJ. When does Kurt Angle start slamming Samoa Joe for not being able to work?

In no particular order, Bret-Owen at WMX, Bret-Austin at WMXIII, that Adonis-Backlund match, Bret-Austin from Survivor Series 96, then there's probably a whole bunch that might compete for the last spot. Oh, I forgot Bret vs. Henning at KOTR 93. That's the 5th.

Alright, I agree with that. That's kind of a vibe I get from all of women's sports, where it's somehow taboo to mention how attractive the girls are, because it somehow takes away from their abilities. Which is bullshit, because if I'm saying "Yea you're a good wrestler and you're also attractive", I'm giving them props on their abilities along with their appearance. It's surely different than somebody saying "Who cares about the wrestling, I just want to see hot chicks". There are people who don't mind seeing great wrestling with no strings attached. Me included. If they can produce shows with a few good matches, and even the odd great match (and keep in mind, I'm talking about my own opinion, and I'm a rather harsh critic of wrestling matches), then I'll watch it. If they run good angles to go along with it, hey, icing on the cake. But I don't really care if they don't.

I never said there was no sex appeal. I said the sex appeal doesn't matter if the wrestling isn't good. Why would I watch bad wrestling just because the women are hot? I can watch porn for that. But if the wrestling is good, I have some incentive to watch, and if the girls happen to be attractive, it's a bonus.

Myself, I'm an Allison Danger kind of guy. But women's wrestling has its own special appeal. If it's done well and the girls are hot, then it has that appeal. If it's not done well, it doesn't matter how good looking the girls are, because without good wrestling, I'm not interested. From what little US women's indy wrestling I've seen, it seems like the girls were trying to focus on wrestling rather than just being eye-candy. Granted, most of the matches I've seen haven't been all that good, but it was mostly due to them just not getting a whole lot of time, along with the placement on the card. I'd be interested in seeing the girls work main event style matches, going 15+ minutes and seeing if they could produce any high quality matches, so I'm looking forward to seeing this show.

Bob Backlund vs. Adrian Adonis (1/18/82) - This is probably the 4th or 5th best match WWE/WWF has ever put on. Just outstanding, slow build, with Backlund working the arm like a king, and Adonis bumping around and selling like some sort of nutty, cuckoo, super king. The match starts picking up once both guys start countering each other's moves, and then it's just a tremendous back and forth match for the last 10-15. Just oustanding.

Your new IWGP heavywieght champion.. All hail the king.

And there goes the thread.. It's ok KNK, I think people are using the "WWE star rating system". Basically, a **** match = *** and you can go from there. Pretty easy to understand.

I watched WWF since I was knew what pro wrestling was (1989 at the age of 5). I stopped caring about WWF near the end of 1999, and I haven't cared since. It was just a matter of growing up and realizing how bad the WWE was. I didn't care if the angles were "kewl~!" because they were illogical and ridiculous. They certainly weren't bringing it from a match quality perespective. A handful of *** matches a year doesn't cut it. I just moved on to better wrestling, it was as simple as that. And at this point, I'm fairly certain the WWE will never have what I'm looking for. Their "WWE style" doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon, which pretty much kills any chance of the promotion consistently producing good matches. Plus, their insistence on pushing steroid freaks severely limits their chances on finding good talent. Nothing short of the McMahon family selling the promotion to someone who knows what they're doing will fix what ails the WWE. And we all know that's never going to happen.

Debating star ratings is only pointless if the parties involved aren't willing or able to post coherent arguments. It's really no different than debating "the best match of the past five years" without posting a coherent argument. Granted, someone could post a laundry list of reasons for why Benoit-Angle wasn't even close to **** and someone else could choose to either ignore those points, or minimize their importance and give it ****+ anyway. But someone could do the same thing if we're debating the best matches of the past five years. "I don't care about the flaws, it's all subjective, and it was still the best match in the past five years".

This thread is bound to get ugly. It already has. Angle vs. HBK at WMXXI Before that, Guerrero vs. Lesnar from NWO 2004. Before that..your guess is as good as mine. WWE doesn't exactly churn out that quality wrestling.

Not having the dates on some of those matches is funny, since there's like a million Hart Foundation vs. Bulldog matches and what not. Sad to see only the one Austin match on the DVD, and I assume it'll be WMXIII (which I already own) and not Survivor Series 96 (which I need). Looks like a quality piece of work all and all though.

It's more a matter of people thinking the promotion is overrated, rather than thinking it's awful. I only know of one person who's watched very little of a given promotion and proclaimed it to be awful (although that guy is one of the biggest dregs you could ever meet, so he's a bad example). I guess the point I wanted to make was that a promotion shouldn't be judged on its crap, it should be judged on its best stuff. If someone compares NOAH's crap to WWE's crap, they'd never understand why people think NOAH destroys WWE in wrestling quality. But if one compares the best (and even middling) stuff, the difference in quality becomes quite apparent.

Sgt. Slaughter vs. The Iron Sheik (6/16/84) - This was a better brawl that anything the WWE has managed to do in the past decade. Intense and emotional, with believable looking work too. Adrian Adonis & Dick Murdoch vs. The Brisco Brothers (12/28/84) - Two great teams, what else other than an excellent match would one expect. Kind of a 1980's style tag by the numbers, but both teams added a lot to make this a fantastic match.

Oh lame. My pics are gone. Can a mod close this thread?

So yea. I guess I should have stuck with my original prediction.

Choshu vs. Brock Lesnar (with Riki going over) headlines the 1/4/06 Dome Show. Count on it. But seriously, if he realizes that his time is done, he'll be a good booker (as he had a good run in the 90's, before he was finished as a draw). One would think it'd be obvious to anyone that Choshu is done as a draw, but in wrestling things never seem to work out the way everyone thinks they should. Here's hoping it does.

MisawaGQ's sensible, perfectly building card of doom. 1. Makoto Hashi vs. Go Shiosaki (12/24/04, ***) - This was actually the opening match on the show it occured. This was obviously a veteran vs. youngster match, but it was quite a role reversal for Hashi, who is usually playing the poor shmoe who gets his ass kicked. Hashi was great here and he played his role to perfection, and led Shiosaki to probably his best singles match. This certainly isn't going to upstage anything, but the match still looks like gold considering its position on the card. 2. Milano Collection A.T./Steve Tsujimoto/Masato Yoshino vs. Ryo Saito/Takayuki Yagi/Anthony W. Mori (1/23/02, ***1/4) - I actually had a lot of matches come to mind for this quality scale, mostly WWE main events from the past few years. While those matches fit the quality scale, they don't really belong in a 2nd match position. This match was a good fit, because it certainly wasn't going to steal the show. This wasn't full of spots, but it was full of submissions and some nifty, subtle story-telling as well. 3. Osamu Namiguchi vs. Katsuhiko Nakajima (5/8/05, ***1/2) - This is the match I'm most proud of. What an absolutely perfect fit for this spot on the card. Two young guys, one of whom is only 17, pulling out all the stops, having the match of their lives. And due to the nature of the match (who was involved, how they achieved such a great match), it has no chance of upstaging anything else. This match, along with the opener goes to show that the future of Japanes pro-wrestling looks to be in good hands. 4. Spanky vs. Bryan Danielson (4/2/05, ***3/4) - This match opened the card it was on, but both guys clearly weren't holding back. A fairly long match for this early (around 25 minutes), but nothing that was done in this match was ever going to upstage anything else. Plus it gives a nice chance of pace from a couple of the previous matches. 5. Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage (3/29/87, ****) - Things are starting to pick up a bit now, as all of the matches have slowly built in quality, and this is the first match that gives people some idea that what they're seeing is a special show. Neither of these guys were main eventing at the time, but they were certainly important players, so I like the placement of this. 6. Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Hiroyoshi Tenzan (8/15/04, ****1/4) - This is the first match that's really going to get the crowd going nuts, but not too nuts. Great performance by both guys, as Tanahashi really breaks through for certain here. Neither guy is really a huge name at this point either, so I still have the big guns left in the bank. 7. Wild Pegasus vs. Great Sasuke (4/30/94, ****1/2) - Another tournament finals match. Hurray. This being a juniors match, isn't going to steal the spotlight for anyone else (since heavyweights have always been the big show in wrestling). Still, this match was worked differently than probably every other match on the card, which is good for variety. Plus, it was important enough at the time to warrant a high placement on the card. 8. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada (5/21/94. AJPW Double Tag Titles, ****3/4) - I decided to use this match here, burning through most of my choices for the main event in the process, just to change things up a bit. Normally one would think a match like this couldn't be topped, given who was involved along with how great it was. But it is certainly possible. 9. Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori (4/2/93, *****) - Interestingly enough, this card ends up having no world title match. But thats ok, because this match was about something more important. This was about utter hatred. And these two never let the crowd forget that. The emotion and drama of this match will probably never be touched, which makes it the perfect choice for ending a card such as this. Also, this match was a big enough deal at the time, that it really does belong in this spot. Conidentally enough, the real card that this match main evented might almost be as good as the one I just concocted, and that's saying something. I like this card. I think the Pegasus-Sasuke was great for breaking up the heavy drama of my 6th and 8/9 matches. Even though it was still a great match, it didn't have the emotion or drama that a few of the other high end matches had. I also think the placement of most of the matches was perfect, with only 1 or 2 that were slightly out of place, just for the sake of the quality scale.

I got greedy, I admit it!@ I should have just used ***** matches, what a hoot that would have been. Except ~7 of the 10 ***** matches involve the same guys, so it kind of doesn't work I might put together another card, this time one that progressively builds in quality from match to match.

1. Gran Hamada/Super Delfin/Tiger Mask IV/Gran Naniwa/Masato Yakushiji vs. Mens Teio/Dick Togo/Sho Funaki/TAKA Michinoku/Shiryu (10/10/96) Why not open with something that will grab everyone's attention? This was the ultimate spotfest, but it was executed so well that it's more than just another "spotty match". Plus even though it's a 10 man tag, I'm not burning through too many important guys for other matches later in the card. 2. Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (3/20/94) - Probably the best match in WWE history. This actually opened WMX, so having it down here isn't a big problem. This match was also done in such a way that it wouldn't upstage anything else, as it wasn't a spectacle. But this is a fine choice to showcase fundamentally sound, beautifully executed wrestling. 3. Jushin Liger vs. Shinjiro Otani (3/30/96, IWGP Junior Heavyweight Title) - This would be my pick for best junior match ever, and one that I forgot to list as ***** in that other thread. This is a perfect match to show a few things that the other matches might not have, like incredibly great selling and facials. Plus, Otani at this point was probably the 2nd most talented wrestler I'd ever seen, only 2nd to one of the fellows in the main event. 4. Kenta Kobashi vs. Stan Hansen (7/29/93) - Now it's time for a great brawl, with utterly perfect role playing. This one isn't as pretty as the previous matches, but it's probably better than all three. I like having it in this spot to somewhat pace the show, so as to not have a bunch of fast paced matches in a row, followed by slower paced matches. 5. Tomoaki Honma vs. Ryuji Yamakawa (6/20/05, Big Japan Deathmatch Title) - This is another brawl. But it's hardly anything like the previous match. This match is about blood and gimmicks. This match is the best deathmatch wrestling has ever seen. The most unique match on the show seems to be a good way to seperate the first and second halves of the show. 5. Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki (11/26/92, WWWA Tag Titles, 2/3 Falls) - Here's my tag title match. This match was indredibly epic and dramatic, and that's why it's put here. Mainly so that the crowd isn't totally spent right before the main event starts. 6. Naomichi Marufuji & KENTA vs. Ikuto Hidaka & Minoru Fujita (5/8/05) - Both of these team's are incredibly over, which is why this match is here. If there's one thing that would get the crowd going after the previous match, it would be these guys. Just a brilliantly built and paced match, with sound fundmentals all the way through. 7. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada (6/3/94, All Japan Triple Crown) - There's only one match that would be fit to main event such a show, and that's quite simply the best wrestling match ever. This is about the only match that could get the crowd going crazy after all the matches earlier in the show. The build to the powerbomb would slowly move the crowd into a frenzy, eventually resulting in everyone in the building believing that once the move is hit, the match and the show will finally be at an end. But no. The powerbomb doesn't end the match, and instead the crowd is treated to another 15 minutes of 2 heavyweights slugging it out back and forth, until one finally resorts to desperate measures and abruptly knocks his opponent the hell out. I tried to pace the show well, meaning keeping the styles and pacing mixed up. Don't want people to see similar matches right after another or else they might not be as interested as they should be. In the end, I decided to use all high quality matches. I also passed up on a few matches (Kandori-Hokuto for example) because they just wouldn't fit into the card unless they were main events. So it's not a true dream card, but rather a semi-dream card where the matches chosen are logical and logically placed.

Matthews knows too much about wrestling to be a big time commentator. He'd be calling moves by their proper name and referring to Japanese/indy promotions. Can't have that. Where's Chris Cruise when you need him? I also think Coach would be fine on colour as Lawler definitely needs to go too.

This is yet another parallel between WWE and and WCW around the time of their collapse. Giving away PPV-level stuff on free TV just to pop a rating, shitting away millions in possible PPV revenue. Just another phase in the long, slow death of WWE. Not that I think they'll ever die, but I expect their profit margin to fall to a point where they have to seriously downsize their business. And quite frankly, I can't wait for that day, because as a wrestling promotion and a business organization, the WWE completely sucks.

We're just splitting hairs here. The match wasn't well worked. It didn't build logically, nor was there a clear, tangible story. Saying the story was "HBK getting beat down" doesn't fly, because it just didn't play out that way. A few control segments don't mean the guy is getting his ass kicked. If they were playing the "so and so getting beat down" story, or any story really, it has to be done in a way that leaves no doubt. Because really, you can find a "story" in even the worst wrestling matches, if you look hard enough for it.

That's not going to happen, the signs were there @ Vengence that those two wouldn't be capable of topping their severely over-rated WM21 encounter and basically were only there to satisfy themselves but I can't even imagine they'd consider this worthy of anything. I didn't think it was possible for these two to give a boring and emotionless match (they might not be classics but they were able to get the crowd alive for them in the first two). This was another example of how flawed the Ironman gimmick is, it completely shuts out the fans and since they don't back it up with quality work, it falls flat. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Indeed. The ironman match gimmick just sucks. There's too many gaps in logic, like what I mentioned in my previous post. If a guy is using a submission, why not just hold on after the guy taps? In the match tonight, there wasn't a rest period, nor did the clock stop between falls. It amounts to using things just for the sake of having a finish, without logically working it into the match. Kind of like that absolutely god awful finish to their Vengeance match.