cabbageboy

Um no, Sandman really didn't get all that much of a reaction tonight. I'd think his WCW run as Hak showed that he was mostly about the entrance and music. I dunno what I think of any of it. I'm quite possibly the biggest RVD fan on this entire board, certainly one of the biggest. When he was hurt last year I kept pimping him on here and quite a few people thought I had a hole in my head. I've wanted the guy to get that elusive title win since about 1998 and I knew tonight was the best chance for it. Frankly, the entire Cena/RVD feud has been booked for shit. Cena wasn't the right guy for this match, despite the crowd trashing him. This match tonight and angle before it needed to be centered around RVD, his quest for the title after 16 years in the business. No mention of him being matched with Taz in 1999, but then Taz signed with the WWF. No mention of him likely to beat Mike Awesome in 2000 before he got hurt. No mention of him coming so close to winning the WWF title and the insane amount of non title wins he's had. In the end, the angle was all about fucking Cena: Can Cena survive the ECW crowd? Was Cena screwed tonight? No offense, but I don't give a shit about Cena in this scenario. This tonight shouldn't have been about him, which is why I almost wish they'd gone with the JBL plan since RVD would have kicked his ass, hit every move in his arsenal, etc. I wanted RVD to pull out all the stops in an epic win. I wanted the somersault into the 5th row. I wanted the Van Daminator. The Van Terminator. I wouldn't have even had a problem with the Edge aspect of the match if it didn't literally lead to RVD winning. It seemed like they were going for the Goldberg run in on Eddie/Lesnar, but in that match Lesnar actually got a bit of offense after the GB run in, so that you can say it was a token screwy finish, but Eddie in the end won on his own merits (the cheating fits Eddie better anyway, though most of RVD's ECW wins were hardly clean).

Yeah but here's the thing. First off, the whole idea of the Dusty Finish involves a guy willing to relinquish the belt. Do you seriously think RVD and Heyman are going to give up that belt tomorrow under any circumstances? It'll end up being a schism where Vince strips RVD of the WWE title, but Heyman recognizes RVD as the ECW champion. This is how all promotions end up branching off. Here's the big question however: Why is Heyman not a legit official for a match? I mean technically the guy is the highest ranking executive at the PPV, and thus would have authority over the standard refs. So him counting 3 really should authenticate RVD's win more than taint it. I can't really rate this PPV quite yet. I'll have to see what happens tomorrow. I think it's important that RVD doesn't just run off to ECW with his tail between his legs though (as in no jobbing the belt right back). It really has to be Heyman and him telling Vince to fuck himself and refusing to relinquish the belt. It'd be easy enough to hold the title up at Vengeance between former champ Cena and #1 contender Edge.

In my view, putting that pathetic 2001 WCW roster over the 2001 WWF roster would have been insanity. This was not the loaded 1998 WCW roster here. Nobody bought most of those guys on a main event level in WCW, much less the WWF. People act like having all those stars would have made this huge difference. Why? In the next couple of years they brought in most of those guys and damn near all of them sucked, had bad matches, and/or didn't draw. If they had been there in 2001 they would have just sucked 2 years earlier.

I want a do over of Captain America while we're at it. One of Marvel's greatest heroes should not only have that 1990 debacle as a film version.

I just watched the RVD/Lynn match from Sept. 99 on there. That has to be one of the best matches and angles ever to air on ECW TV. I think honestly they should have done a title change there though, the crowd was just berserk by the end of the match for Lynn.

I always have had a soft spot for Strike Force. Mainly because they were the champions when I first watched wrestling.

I agree with most everything you had to say there. In fact that is the exact idea myself and others have proposed on this forum. I'd give Cena a phantom type pin when the WWE ref is down, then the ECW ref comes in and a couple mins. later RVD hits the 5 star and wins. Next night Vince overturns it. This accomplishes several things. It doesn't really make either guy look bad, they can still go with Cena/Edge at Vengeance, and RVD can ride off to ECW with the belt. I can't believe Meltzer thinks Angle/Orton is the best match on this PPV. If that is ANYTHING besides Angle breaking every bone in his body then that crowd is going to shit on it. Can you imagine the ECW crowd's reaction to Orton's offense of 85% headlocks? It'd be like that Cactus Jack 1995 anti hardcore angle all over again except Orton wouldn't be in on the joke.

You have to wonder...what would the comics industry look like had Acclaim succeeded in buying Image instead of Valiant? Cause let's face it, while stuff like Deathmate hurt Valiant it was Acclaim that basically bought the company, made some video games of Turok and Shadowman, and otherwise buried them. The irony of Image is that by the time they finally started getting their act together the comics boom was over and a whole lot less people cared.

I used to be a big comics fan around the time of the big boom period in the early90s. Some of my favorite books were from Valiant Comics (at that point the #3 publisher behind Marvel and DC). I remember being very excited about the whole Deathmate crossover with Image, though I really was never an Image fan. Here's some info I found on wikipedia.com about this ill fated crossover that essentially wrecked the comics industry for years: ______________________________________________________________________________ Deathmate was a six-part comic book crossover between Valiant Comics and Image Comics. Designated by color rather than issue numbers (namely Yellow, Blue, Black, and Red) plus two book-end issues, Deathmate Prologue and Deathmate Epilogue, the main books were written as so they could be read out of sequence. Created at the peak of the comic book speculator boom of 1993, the entire project was heavily promoted, but was wrought with production delays, with the Image books (Black, Red, and Prologue) coming out severely behind schedule and out of sequence (Red shipped several weeks after Prologue). The plot evolved around a chance meeting of two characters, Solar from Valiant and Void from Jim Lee's WildC.A.T.s, published by Image. As the two became lovers, their joining would meant the destruction of both comic book universes. It is notable that only half of the Image founding members chose to take part. Erik Larsen, Jim Valentino, and Todd McFarlane were not involved, although Al Simmons makes a brief character appearance in Deathmate Red. The books Books from Valiant Deathmate Prologue "A Love to End All Time" Story: Bob Layton Pencils: Barry Windsor-Smith Inks: Jim Lee "Universal Truth" Story: Bob Layton Pencils: Rob Liefeld Inks: Bob Layton with Danny Miki and Dan Panosian Deathmate Black, the comic that introduced Gen 13.Deathmate Yellow "Jerked Through Time" (featuring characters from Archer & Armstrong and WildC.A.T.s) Story: Mike Baron Pencils: Bernard Chang Inks: Rodney Ramos "Cat and Mouse" (featuring characters from Ninjak and WildC.A.T.s) Story: Jorge Gonzalez Pencils: Don Perlin Inks: Mike Manley "The Dying Game" (featuring characters from H.A.R.D. Corps and WildC.A.T.s) Story: David Michelinie and Bob Layton Pencils: Mike Leeke Inks: Tom Ryder "Revalations and Recruitments" (featuring characters from Shadowman and WildC.A.T.s) Story: Bob Hall Pencils: Mark Moretti Inks: John Dixon Deathmate Blue "Battlestone vs. Magnus Outlaw!" (featuring characters from Brigade and Magnus: Robot Fighter) Story: John Ostrander Pencils: Jim Calafiore Inks: Ralph Reese "Secret Forces" (featuring characters from Secret Weapons and Cyberforce) Story: Joe St. Pierre Pencils: Sean Chen Inks: Kathryn Bolinger "Sacrifices" (featuring characters from Harbinger, Brigade, and Cyberforce) Story: Maurice Fontenot Pencils: Howard Simpson Inker: Gonzalo Mayo "Supremely Darque" (featuring characters from Solar and Supreme) Story: Kevin VanHook Pencils: Peter Grau Inker: Jimmy Palmiotti Books from Image Deathmate Black (featuring characters from Gen 13, WildC.A.T.s, Turok: Dinosaur Hunter, Cyberforce, and X-O Manowar) Story: Brandon Choi and Eric Silvestri Pencils: Brandon Peterson, Brett Booth, Marc Silvestri, J. Scott Campbell (as Jeffrey Scott), Scott Clark, Greg Capullo, Jim Lee, and Whilce Portacio Inks: Scott Williams, Sal Regla, Alex Garner, and Trevor Scott Deathmate Red (featuring characters from Youngblood, Bloodshot and Eternal Warrior) Story and Pencils: Rob Liefeld Script: Eric Stephenson Additional pencils: Jeff Matsuda, Rich Horie, Dan Fraga, Cedric Nocon, Dan Pacella, Anthony Winn, Marat Mychaels Inks: Danny Miki, Jon Sibal, Marlo Alquiza Deathmate Epilogue Story: Bob Layton Pencils: Marc Silvestri and Joe Quesada Inks: Bob Layton and Scott Williams Aftermath Deathmate Red, Rob Liefeld's belated contribution to the project.As Image books were plagued with deadline problems at the time, it was very little surprise to either fans, retailers, or critics that their books would also arrive late, unlike the books published by Valiant, which arrived on schedule. Despite that, the books were ordered in heavy quantities by retailers, but when shipping dates were not met, orders were cancelled and the books were re-ordered. By the time the books finally did arrive, fans generally lost interest, leaving many retailers with numerous unsold copies. As a cross-promotion, two trading card companies also did a cross-over, Upper Deck and Topps. But, because of deadline problems with Image Comics, Topps ended up backing out of the contract. In a retrospective interview with Newsrama on the rise and fall of Valiant, Bob Layton (former editor in chief) lambasted the whole affair, regarding it as an "unmitigated disaster." As the Image artists were notorious for failing to meet deadlines, Layton allegedly flew out to Los Angeles, went to Rob Liefeld's residence and refused to leave until Liefeld was able to pencil his contribution to Deathmate Prologue, which Layton ended up inking in a hotel room. "I literally had nothing to do with most of those projects," Layton revealed, "Deathmate was thrust upon us because (Steve) Massarsky and Jim Lee were best buddies at the time and had privately arranged the crossover." For retailers, Deathmate was disastrous, but due to the tying up of cash flow from books that were arriving late, especially given the $4.95 USD cover price (at the time, the average comic book cover price was less than half of that). Also due to waning fan interest as they waited for books to arrive, the re-orders were lowered once the initial orders were cancelled. The Valiant Deathmate books (Prologue, Blue, and Yellow) had print runs of over 700,000 copies, but by the time Deathmate Red was eventually released, it had a print run of 250,000. Even still, retailers were left sitting on many unsold copies. At the time, comic book distributors would only allow unsold books to be returned if they were six months late. For retailers already dealing with constantly late books from Image, this indirectly caused many comic book shops to close. Partly due to the lateness of Deathmate (although more to do with the lateness of Image books in general), the window was eventually decreased to two months, but by then the majority of the shops' fates had already been sealed. _______________________________________________________________________________ Anyone else out there remember this whole debacle? I have to admit I never picked up the notorious Rob Liefeld issue or the epilogue, but I recall buying one issue at Squeeze Play (a now defunct comic store) and the guy there said "Yeah man, enjoy the book. Hopefully some day we'll get the Image stuff....it might be Christmas!"

From Hogan's perspective why would he put over Shawn anyway? We've established that Hogan is all about who drew what money, so why would he put over a guy that was a mediocre draw at best? I think ironically enough that the Warrior didn't get over as champ because he was the first guy to beat Hogan. If they had for instance done the opposite booking of what they did (have Slaughter get a cheap win over Hogan, then Warrior crushes Slaughter for the belt) then I think Warrior would have been mega over as champ. Transition champions. They are there for a reason.

That DQ at the end was irrelevant though. I mean the ref calling for the bell was a technicality. Let's face it, they had 20 guys in the ring, so it's not like that match was going to continue.

Double post.

Well I think what he meant was that this SD before the PPV can't help but be a lame anticlimactic show. It might have a decent match or two but it's essentially irrelevant. I enjoyed the hell out of this show tonight, and in fact it gave me renewed hope for the PPV on Sunday. I had a blast for 2 solid hours tonight. Not necessarily that I agree with all of the booking here, but at least it was crazy fun. I've wanted to see an RVD/Rey match for years and aside from the one RVD slip into the crowd (quickly covered by him missing it when Rey moved) that match delivered. I think I can safely say THAT was the real RVD. I also enjoyed Cena and Sabu, since Sabu beat his ass for a good 90% of it, so it didn't necessarily hurt him that Cena would have had him beat with the STFU. As far as the Big Show turn (turn?) to ECW, I really liked the execution of it. Hell, it kept Orton from winning the battle royale if nothing else. I couldn't help but think in the back of my head "The Giant joins the NWO!" There's still a Pavlovian response to the old T shirt angle as long as they don't do it every show. I also enjoyed seeing Taz and Lawler argue all night and get into a fight, haha. The oddball 4 man announce booth actually worked well tonight, as Styles did shoots all over everyone and JR and Lawler responded in kind. If there is a negative to the show it's that I fear the real ECW guys (aside from the obvious perennials like RVD, Sabu, Dreamer) are becoming the same bit players that most of the ECW and WCW guys were in the Invasion. It was cool to see Team ECW come out as a team for the battle royale, but the problem is that it didn't give us much of a shot to know who these guys were. If anything they were the ones who needed the separate introductions. Anyway, I am quite looking forward to the PPV on Sunday. Aside from Orton anyway. But that might even be amusing if Angle comes through with his promise to break Randy's legs, arms, neck...

This match and thread reminds me of the scene in Walk the Line where Johnny Cash goes to Sun Records to audition for Sam Phillips. His band launches into a relatively competent but ho hum song and Phillips yells cut. Then asks Cash "If you were dying and had ONE song to sing, what would it be?" If Vince had that one match to put on to show WCW to the WWF fans, would it really be Booker vs. Bagwell? Ok so maybe the match isn't a flat out DUD, but it's certainly nowhere beyond a ** match.

No, the double pin is always a really shitty idea and I'm telling you...this crowd will not accept anything but a (seeming) RVD win. Someone else hit on the idea that there will be a WWE ref for that match, he'll get bumped, and then an ECW ref will end up making the 3 count for RVD. From what I'm seeing here RVD isn't scheduled for Vengeance or any Raw shows after ONS. This is it for him. That scenario above keeps the sanctity of the WWE title (Vince would simply say that an ECW ref counting 3 wasn't a valid title change, but that RVD would be recognized as the ECW champ). If they DO go with the lame double pin idea then I think they have to have RVD be the initiator of the finishing move. As in he catches Cena with a belly to back suplex, both men's shoulders are down, etc. That'd be kind of anticlimactic though after a barrage of Van Daminators, F-Us, Van Terminators, etc.

Vivisectvi, I disagree on this. Heyman has flat out gone out and said that should RVD and/or Sabu win his respective match and belt then they are going to make it the ECW title. I mean good grief, how many advantages do they need? They have the fans, the arena, the rules all on their side. So one of the two needs to win. It would be horrible beyond words to job BOTH RVD and Sabu at that PPV. I mean plane crash into the mountain level bad. It wouldn't hurt Sabu that much to lose to Rey if he wipes himself out after attempting some insane move. If they dare job out RVD at that show they can forget anyone watching the new ECW. Or doing the PPV again. I'm expecting some slightly dubious finish where RVD wins, but then leaves room enough for a Dusty Finish where Vince will in the end give the WWE belt back to Cena and RVD will go to ECW as their world champ.

How do you mean clusterfucks? As in the matches will be horribly bad or that they will be huge clusters with run ins galore. I think in terms of actual quality the Cena/Sabu match will likely be crappy, but RVD/Rey should be a really good match. The problem I have is this: How the hell do you book any of it? It's easy enough to pick a guy to win a battle royale, but the two major matches are tough. Yet again they book themselves into a corner. Of the guys in those matches Sabu is really the only one who can afford to lose tonight, and even in his case they need to establish him somewhat with the WWE fans.

I personally think the overall level of ring work has declined a lot since 2001, which is why people look back on this match and say "Maybe it wasn't that bad." It doesn't seem as out of place now, with guys like Orton doing restholds and headlocks for 4/5 of a match. To say Booker/Bagwell isn't as bad as I thought would be to say that maybe it wasn't a -** type match, but just a DUD.

Here's a question for everyone: If it's true that RVD will face Rey at this WWE vs. ECW show tonight then how do they book that match? Since nothing is advertised I am almost hoping both the Cena/Sabu and RVD/Rey matches end in DQs and they rebook it and do a tag match on that show. Then Sabu might pick up a win over Rey to establish him as a threat, but it doesn't really hurt anybody. Cause let's face it, the way Rey has been treated like a jobber they can't have RVD lose to him. And yet they can't keep jobbing Rey out to everyone.

To address Kid Notorious from the previous page. There is a key difference between what they are doing with ECW this year as opposed to last year. Last year they had Bischoff, JBL, Angle and Co. badmouth ECW and try to invade the PPV. What did all the invaders have in common? They were all asshole heels that the crowd wanted to see get beat down. So now they have guys like Cena and Rey going into this PPV (guys in theory that are faces). It's like they don't want to turn Cena heel so he's sucking up to ECW, but yet all signs point to him having to turn heel in another month or so anyway! But right now you have Cena out here getting his ass kicked by RVD and the ECW guys on a weekly basis and he's not really DOING anything about it. Last night reminded me way too much of a WCW sap like Lex Luger getting beat down by the NWO. Also, the whole scenario of RVD winning the WWE title and renaming it the ECW title and leaving....it isn't really something that should be mentioned as such. The whole idea behind Shane Douglas doing it was that it was a surprise. RVD and Heyman are practically announcing it to the world. Now they have themselves booked into a corner it won't be easy to get out of. Even this Wed. show is goofy on that level. Who do you job there? Cena can't really afford to lose to Sabu, while neither RVD or Rey can afford a loss either. Would it be that hard to just do the obvious tag match with Rey/Cena vs. RVD/Sabu and let Sabu get the win over Rey (thus making us think he might win at the PPV and keeping Cena and RVD out of the decision).

I am kinda looking forward to Boll's next debacle, that In the Name of the King (Dungeon Siege) movie. I think it's supposed to be about 3 hours long. It's like his LOTR or something. If there is one thing I can say for Uwe Boll, he does have a style. Whenever I see one of his movies, I know the look and feel immediately. Not that that is a good thing exactly, but it's worth noting.

The Lillian thing is eventful? They can't job RVD out now. There is literally no way. Sabu? Sure. He could go for some insane move and miss, kill himself, Rey covers for a 3. But they have set it up to where somebody has to win a title so they can branch off with an ECW belt. It's easy to do. As someone said, there might be a WWE ref for the title matches. He gets bumped, give Cena a phantom 3 count, new ECW ref comes in, RVD eventually wins, renames the belt and all that for the crowd, then on Raw Vince says no way and gives the title back to Cena (while RVD is now recognized as ECW champ).

As I said, I don't think he'll even draw any heat. He's going to be the one lone WWE guy who has zero heat. I wonder what that would say to WWE management?

You don't get my point. I don't care if Angle just squashes Orton. It's the mere fact that Orton is ON the PPV. Isn't he still supposed to be suspended for another week? What, did they have to rush him back because there was no one else who could go in and get killed by Angle? The problem with doing all these lame WWE vs. ECW matches for the PPV is that some of these WWE guys will have to go over, and it'll just serve to infuriate the crowd. Or worse just kill the crowd.

That had to be one of the worst Raws in history. I'm not one who usually tosses around phrases like that, but man this show was horrid. Not only was most of it forgettable, but what important stuff they did was insanely counter productive. Shall we review: --ECW's guys are effectively heels now, having all attacked John Cena. And then they ran like cowards when the WWE guys came out. This just blew my mind. I could see a huge fight with everyone involved and they go to break, then come back saying "During the break we got things under control." --They have practically advertised that RVD has to win the WWE title and rename it the ECW title at the PPV. If he doesn't, he's going to look like the biggest joke on earth. As we saw tonight, he's going to have any number of guys to run in on his behalf. I mean seriously, Rob, if they job you out at THIS show you might as well take a gun and stick it to your head, cause it's over. --Fucking RANDY ORTON on an ECW PPV????? Randy FUCKING Orton on One Night Stand???? Why in the name of god did anyone think this was a good idea? I don't even care that Angle is going to squash him like a bug again. They couldn't get somebody more worthwhile for this Angle Challenge? I'll bet anyone here that Orton will be the lone WWE guy that draws zero heat from the rabid crowd. He's that shitty and heatless. Honestly, it kills my will to watch the PPV. --As an aside is there any actual ECW on this ECW PPV? I warned everyone last week when Angle was the draft pick that it was just the Alliance redux, with WWE guys defecting and ultimately ECW won't have any real identity. --Why are they not hyping the fact that ECW is going to be on TV starting NEXT WEEK? I'd think that is kinda important. They haven't mentioned this much at all, when it's the sort of thing you need to hammer into people for a month at least. --Lastly, why is this shit with HHH and Vince main eventing Raw? There can't possibly be anyone on earth who seriously cares about this at all, yet here it is week after week being the focus of Raw while they have an actual PPV to promote. Seriously, what does it say when they took the most obvious no brainer megahit PPV in ONS and have now made me so disgusted that I am considering not even getting the PPV?