cabbageboy

It depends on what channel it's on. During the World Series on Fox they call it merely Zack and Miri, whereas on the more risque USA during Raw they include the Make a Porno part.

Yeah this sucks since he was probably my favorite guy to watch wrestle at the moment. Hopefully he'll come back at 100% and also won't end up toning down his style too much since that's what got him over.

Ah, I see Cucaracha read my post in another thread where I too pondered the greatness of Race. As a kid I never got why he was supposed to be any good, since I mostly saw his WWF 1986-88 run where he was past his prime and doing the foolish King gimmick. However, through Flair's DVD I got to see the build to the first Starrcade and on 24/7 they had a bunch of Race stuff and I was much more impressed with him. I recall Ryne Sandberg's HOF speech where he said something like "If you saw me play once, you wouldn't think I was anything special. If you saw me play every day, then you might see something in me." Race also rarely used restholds in his matches, which to me epitomizes what workrate is all about: Do something in the ring, dammit. Someone I mentioned in another thread that is often mentioned as a great but I disagree is Ted DiBiase. He was good, but I think it is silly to call him some sort of great worker. I couldn't tell you a great DiBiase match, although most of his Mid South work is harder to find. Really good gimmick of course, terrific voice and cackle, but was he ever really an all time great?

Taker might use more MMA style stuff but otherwise it would look a lot like the 1997 match from the UK I would think. I'm not sure about Bret/Diesel at WM XI. The timing doesn't feel right somehow. I always like WM to be a guy's first big title win and it seems like guys who get the belt magically at some vague point around Survivor Series tend to not do that well. Bret's first title run was a hard sell since he got the title out of the blue at a house show and we didn't see the match. The irony of those Diesel vs. Sid or Mabel matches is that I'm sure Vince THOUGHT those were great ideas in a Clash of the Titans type way with two huge men facing off.

This might sound crazy but I would have actually put the belt on Nash in 1995 but done it in a different fashion. I would have kept the title on Backlund and had him go over Bret at the Rumble with an Owen run in (set up Bret vs. Owen II for WM, a bit stale but better than Bret/Backlund). Have Backlund cut a bunch of heel promos badmouthing the New Generation of wrestlers and how he's a superior veteran. At the Rumble I'd book Diesel to repeat his 1994 effort but this time actually win the Rumble in decisive fashion, setting him up as the New Generation's savior to get the belt off the crazy old man Backlund. In the weeks to follow Backlund needs to go over a bunch of the younger guys with the crossface chickenwing. Michaels wouldn't get near the world title at this point since I don't think he was ready for it. Jobbing him at WM XI did him no favors. I'd put Michaels in with Jarrett and Razor and do a 3 way (rare for that time period) for the IC title. Of course at WM Diesel goes over Backlund strong with the powerbomb, though not a squash match. And then Backlund can spend a few months returning the jobs from those he beat.

The Redskins don't do a whole lot for me. They just aren't.....impressive? As in they lost to the Rams at home and struggled to beat teams like Detroit and Cleveland. CZECH, I can't even compliment the Bears at all? I don't recall exactly what I've said in the weekly NFL predictions, but I would think I picked the Bears to win nearly every week aside from Carolina. The Eagles game was at Soldier Field, so I had the Bears winning a close one. I think they can win the division if nothing else and maybe get to the 2nd round.

Kamala, I wasn't aware we disagreed 90% of the time. In fact I thought we agreed more often than not, haha. I know we at least agree on Diesel and the Hummer angle. In terms of looking back in retrospect, I am shocked at how ahead of his time Nash was during that late 1995, early 1996 period. Along with Lex Luger's WCW work of that period I think this was the beginning of the tweener in mainstream wrestling. At the time I simply thought Diesel did a heel turn when he attacked Bret after the match at Survivor Series, but it wasn't so simple as that. He beat up Bret, tormented UT, but was still teaming with Shawn and playing to the crowd. Luger's WCW work of the same period was easier to view as a tweener since he was teaming with Sting and also flirting with joining Jimmy Hart.

Really fun show, one of the WWF's best 1980s offerings. The epic tag teams match is still one of the best matches in Survivor Series history.

I have a feeling MVP is the guy jobbing in that 6 man tag. As far as the brand split stuff goes, I don't have a huge problem with it on certain occasions (I'm assuming here Halloween is considered special enough, thus the horror themed Kane is there). I do like it when the graphics and announcers at least refer to someone as a Raw or SD guy though. As in there's nothing wrong with these guys showing up on other shows, but just maintain their home show status.

Kamala, why put that "of all people" mention about me pointing out the WWF's lack of heels in 1995? Anyway, I think the big problem I had with this whole thing is that I never bought Diesel as anything more than Shawn's bodyguard. Yeah, the dude was huge...we get that. But why would he get a major push over the actual guy he bodyguards? I never bought it when he beat Razor for the IC belt. I didn't buy him getting a PPV title shot at KOTR 1994 against Bret. And I sure as hell didn't buy him getting the world title out of the blue from Backlund in 8 seconds after Backlund went 30+ with Bret to win it. Being a major Bulldog mark, I was desperately wanting him to win the 1995 Rumble and face Bret at WM in a rematch of Summerslam 1992 (my favorite match ever). Think about how close it came to happening too: Bret/Diesel at the Rumble was a draw/schmozz. Bulldog finished 2nd due to the dumbest finish in the history of the Rumble. I was already apathetic towards Diesel as champion, and now I got to see him defend at WM against a guy I outright detested in HBK. The logic made no sense: A 7 ft., 300 lb. babyface champ going against a 230 lb. heel challenger. I don't recall ever being outraged by Diesel's title run. It was mostly that I just stopped caring about wrestling during that period of time, between the WWF's snoozer programming and WCW's sad attempts to recreate the 1980s. ECW wasn't on in my area until mid 1996. But at least in the first part of Nash's title run he got to work with guys like Bret and Shawn, but he really needed to beat Bret at the Rumble to establish himself. The fact that he didn't spoke volumes about their lack of confidence in him. I would have also enjoyed a feud with Diesel vs. UT in 1995, but that never materialized because obviously no one would have bought Diesel beating Taker. Or maybe go back to Diesel/Razor, but Razor was also a face. One underrated aspect here is also Diesel was the wrong guy to have the belt on when they expanded to 12 PPVs a year. He had the title when they started the IYH shows and thus he wrestled guys like Sid or Bulldog, or wrestled tag matches. I would probably put his title run higher than Yokozuna's 1993-94 run, even though I would think Yoko drew more money. I was at least mainly apathetic to Diesel, but with Yoko it was like some neverending nightmare when he had the belt.

Wow, combine that with Havoc 1992 winning the PYBO and we see the clear dominance of early 90s WCW when it comes to 24/7.

What the hell, I'll defend the Bears to some degree. They are only 4-3, but consider those 3 losses. One was a road loss at Carolina in the last few minutes. Another was a tough OT loss to Tampa that they should have won. And the 3rd was that bizarre last second FG loss against the Falcons. If the Bears could finish games they would be 6-1 right now, and I do think they are the best team in that division.

Kong doesn't make any sense with the Main Event Mafia though. She isn't old, isn't a main eventer from the WWF or WCW.

The first thing I thought when I saw this thread was that Cena needs to go back to Basic Thuganomics. Thing is, he's mostly dropped the rap gimmick.

Yes, glad to hear it. The world needs some deranged Steiner rambling on the mic.

Predictions: N.Y. Jets at Buffalo 1:00 pm: Favre was horrid at times last week but managed to win. Buffalo lost a tough one at Miami. Bills will get back on track here though. Buffalo by 7. Detroit at Chicago 1:00 pm: The Bears will beat the Lions yet again but it might be a little closer this time. Bears by 14. Jacksonville at Cincinnati 1:00 pm: The Jags are just a puzzling, enigmatic team. That said, this is Cincy we're talking about here. Jacksonville by 10. Baltimore at Cleveland 1:00 pm: Could the Browns be ready to turn around their season? I think so actually. Cleveland by 3. Tampa Bay at Kansas City 1:00 pm: Tampa is just not a good road team at all, just 1 win away from home thus far. That said, their D is still solid enough to grind out a win here. Tampa by 6. Houston at Minnesota 1:00 pm: Should I get back on the Texans bandwagon to some extent? Sure, why not. The Vikings are unspectacular. Houston by 4. Arizona at St. Louis 1:00 pm: Hard to predict this since Steven Jackson is banged up. I'll say that Warner sticks it to his old team and the Cardinals manage to win a wild shootout 35-31. Green Bay at Tennessee 1:00 pm: Titans actually can't afford to slip up at home before they have a couple of tough road games. Packers are decent at times but I can't see them winning this one. Titans by 7. Miami at Denver 4:05 pm: Denver is just baffling beyond words. Miami is also pretty puzzling. Since it's in Denver, I'll take the Broncos by 5. Dallas at N.Y. Giants 4:15 pm: Dallas barely scraped by Tampa's bleh offense. This one just isn't going to happen however. NYG by 13. Atlanta at Oakland 4:15 pm: Oakland is fairly tough to beat at home, but the Falcons somehow will find a way to get by on the road. ATL by 3. Philadelphia at Seattle 4:15 pm: Eagles look somewhat back on track and I don't really buy the Seahawks even with their win over SF. Philly by 10. New England at Indianapolis 8:15 pm: Okay, the Colts flat out cannot afford to lose this game at home, not if they want any hope of making the playoffs. Indy by 7. Monday, Nov. 03 Pittsburgh at Washington 8:30 pm: The Redskins find ways to win but they don't exactly impress all that often. If the Steelers can protect Roethisberger better then I think they can take this game. Steelers by 4.

If DiBiase is a great worker, name me a great match the guy ever had. Interesting to hear DiBiase mentioned because he might go in another category with me: Guys who everyone thought was great, but really isn't. Garvin was actually really bad ass in the NWA, but the problem is he probably shouldn't have beaten Flair for the title since he didn't have the cred. As far as Snuka goes, he's another guy I find overrated. Maybe it's due to him being washed up by the time I started watching, but I have just never gotten why he was anything great. He was a good high flyer for 25 years ago, but jumping off a cage isn't anything remarkable today. Even for the early 80s WWF there are matches like Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask that blow away Snuka's work.

Orton is an odd case in that I think as a wrestler he would be much better served being a face, where he wouldn't have to dictate the match with his tedious headlock offense. The problem with that is that Orton the character is such an unlikable douche that it's tough to get behind him. I don't think Tito Santana would have been a very good heel, but I suppose stranger things have happened.

I don't agree with trashing Vickie personally to this degree, but I will echo the sentiment that she is getting dangerously close to "Get off my TV" type heat. Let's face it, Vickie as SD GM jumped the shark once Edge got waxed in the HIAC match by The Undertaker. This angle with Big Show just isn't anywhere near as compelling. Oh and maybe this has been mentioned but here goes: Shane/Steph will have to fire Adamle next week since he went against the edict that no one can smack Orton. Adamle clearly violated the company's policy.

Yeah, winning a World Series on a rain shortened game would be completely lame. You can't end someone's season without doing everything possible to let them have 9 innings.

Wouldn't it suffice to simply have Show or someone lose a match with the stip being Vickie had to leave WWE? Anyway this was a good show tonight with the tag title change and Bourne/Rey. I was pleased to see Bourne get a lot of cheers for a while in that match until he started working in some subtle heel stuff later. Not so thrilled about this Kane/Rey crap continuing however, now with Henry involved to make it a tag feud. Thankfully HBK came out for the main event so it wasn't the typical handicap match that Raw books into the ground.

I would think he was a lock, but who knows. WWE had to scramble to think of someone else and since Punk has the gimmick of being straight edge (and was over too) he got the win.

Well, as far as Saw V goes on Halloween I meant that people are at various functions that night, might take a kid trick or treating instead of going to a movie, stay home to hand out candy, anything other than going to the theater.

You're sort of right and wrong about Jeff. I don't think many people thought he would beat Orton at the Rumble, but him jobbing clean was a dubious piece of booking that showed little faith in Hardy. But really I think Jeff flat out jumped the shark in the build to WM when he failed another Wellness test and was suspended for WM. He was booked to win the MITB (I would assume) and CM Punk got the briefcase instead, and went on to win the title.

Wow, that was one of the first wrestling shows I can recall seeing, since I remember Andre beating down the poor Bulldogs. I know I first started watching between that first S. Series and the first Rumble.