cabbageboy

Yes I get all that. I realize that Austin got desperate and needed to win the match, so he sided with Vince. Sure it made sense in that one match scenario but did they think about what it was going to do long term to the company? The weeks after Austin's heel turn illustrate clearly that they had no idea what it meant to turn Austin. He dicked around with UT in a weird role reversal feud, joined up with mortal enemy HHH in an angle that was so WCW it isn't funny. I'd argue that it wasn't until HHH got injured that Austin was even the focal heel of the promotion. The point is that I have a hard time separating WM 17 from what followed. Matchwise it's better than WM 14 for instance but WM 14 is a show I find myself watching more, because it was a great show in its own right and led to a fabulous era of the WWF.

That's the stuff I meant, the aftermath. I'd heard about an Austin heel turn since Aug. 2000 and was really kinda waiting for it. But the justification and post WM stuff was nonsense. Teaming with the guy who conspired to have you run over with a car? Teaming with the guy who made your life hell for 4 years? There was no real reason that made good sense for him doing this. If anything the Rock was stale and could have used the heel turn. I guess my point is aesthetically it's not as enjoyable as stuff like SS 92, which is a stand alone show. I can't think of WM 17 without putting it in the context of what happened next, with the entire business going in the tank, Austin's financially bleh heel run, the botched Invasion, etc. Whereas with SS 92 I just watch it in its own context and enjoy, it has no baggage...make sense?

Yeah I will go with Owen...I've heard some say Hugh Jackman but I think he's already too known as Wolverine. Owen is at the point where he's getting reasonably known but not so much that his persona would overwhelm the Bond character.

Hogan/Vince wasn't exactly the main for WM 19...I think Brock/Angle was, though that show never had a clearly defined main. Just a bunch of "2nd from top" matches. As I said, the Cabinet MUST job. If they don't, I start boycotting Smackdown. It's almost like RTC circa WM 17 where they all need to get jobbed badly and killed. Benoit should utterly destroy Jordan this time, surely they won't be retarded enough to have OJ retain again. And JBL beating Batista is possibly the single stupidest thing they could think of doing.

For a title to mean anything though there needs to be a DIVISION. Right now what is the world title division on Raw? Cena is champ but aside from a jobber Jericho who else is making it known that "I wanna piece of the champ?" Is there a division? A list of top challengers? The IC division is even worse..I have no idea what the hell is going on. Carlito is a total joke and has been treated as a jobber in the Cena/Jericho feud. Does Shelton still want a piece of him? Who are the top contenders for the IC? Tag division: Is there one? Right now it's just the Superheroes and the Heart Throbs (who are jobbers). Smackdown: Batista has the title, who are his challengers? There's just JBL, so who goes after Dave after that (hopefully they aren't retarded enough to put the title back on JBL). Motherfucking Orlando Jordan--the most useless guy on either roster--has the 2nd main title on that roster, the US title. I'm hoping Benoit squashes him at SS and brings some credibility to it, since there are at least a few challengers in Booker and Christian to work with. But it's imperative to get the title off Jordan and then hopefully release him. Tag division? Just the New LOD squashing jobbers and MNM dicking around. A promotion is only as strong as its title scenes. Take a look 5 years ago when you had a world title scene with The Rock, HHH, Benoit, UT, Kane, etc. An IC division with Benoit, Angle, Jericho, etc. Tag division with at least the Hardys, E and C, Dudleys, APA, etc.

Brian, I know what you mean. I'd say the one thing keeping WM 17 from being the best PPV ever is what you mention. The "shock and awe" type booking. The aftermath was an Austin heel turn that drove fans away and it simply doesn't give you that buzz afterwards like WM 3 does even today. I don't think main events of a major PPV should have nonsensical heel turns, that stuff should be done to set up such a show.

I think the long title run is only good if you have someone who is capable of drawing money long term and keeping the fans interested. When you have guys like Yoko, Diesel, and JBL holding the title for a long time it kills interest in the product because it is guys holding the title that no one cares about. Nash could have been better but the thing is they threw every fat fuck or giant at him to produce an awful match. The guy spent most of 1995 post WM dicking around with Sid, Mabel, etc. He never really beat Bret Hart, never beat UT, and faced Shawn once and while winning that match Michaels got more over from it than he did. Yokozuna to me is the most mindboggling long term champ. Even JBL you could argue has some kind of mic skills and was at least carried to some decent matches by Eddie. But Yoko? He was shitty. No wrestling ability, zero mic skills literally...why did they leave the title on him? They had Bret, Luger, Crush, etc. Any of those guys would have been a better choice. I think the best scenario at the end of the day is a mix. Seeing the same guy on top for years is tedious, but it's better if the champ will lose to someone and then regain it. As in the champ holds it for 6 months or so, loses it for a month or two, then regains.

Barely Legal isn't the greatest show ever or anything but I don't remember it being all that bad. I do seem to remember that Douglas/Pit Bull match being pretty crappy, but the rest of the show at least seemed to have memorable stuff attached to every match. ECW shows never quite stand the test of time because so much of it is about initial shock reaction. It provokes a different reaction than say Summerslam 92 (which I just saw on 24/7...there's a show that does hold up I think). SS 92 and similar shows have an epic quality and some really great wrestling, so I can put it on and watch it anytime. ECW stuff is tougher to watch since the production is usually crappy and it is so mindnumbingly violent that by the end of the show I'm kinda desensitized. Even a really solid ECW show like Heatwave 98 has that problem.

Last year they pushed Orton about as hard as anyone could be pushed and the guy still didn't stay over on a sustained level. HHH pretty much put the gun to his head last Sept. This Benoit thing is puzzling. Why is this man being so mercilessly buried? Jobbing to Orton isn't that big of a deal, but jobbing to him and also Orlando Jordan? I'm assuming they'll at least give him the US title at SS. I'm telling you, SS needs to be Cabinet jobbing night. If I don't see both JBL and Jordan on their backs come Sunday it's time to start the boycott.

I'm not sure how severe Bret's stroke was but as someone whose dad had a stroke that WAS severe I certainly understand why he can't or will not wrestle. A stroke is extremely serious and Bret is lucky to have command on both sides of his body. I would still like to see him come back for a one shot type deal, just something to help Hogan out when Michaels tries to "screw him" like he did Bret.

JN, I too am slightly worried about some sort of stupid shock title change on Sunday. In my opinion jobbing Batista to fucking JBL in his hometown would for all intents kill his career. Hell, jobbing him to Hassan would have been possibly worse, but there is no way Batista should lose to this guy. Smackdown desperately needs a new direction, one not involving Bradshaw hanging around in the main event well past his expiration date.

After last night I figure they have to do something with Bret. I mean they'd have to be utterly stupid to have Michaels do all that ranting about Bret and then not have some sort of payoff. I thought they might have Bret help Hogan when he is about to be "screwed" by Michaels. Not only would this play off of the Montreal screwjob but also of Bret's WCW debut at Starrcade 97 (which was also at the MCI Center).

As far as which Manning was screwed the implication was Peyton of course. I don't think anyone would argue that Eli was really screwed, though I'd take him over Jason White any day (even in college, it's just Ole Miss wasn't good enough). The problem I had with Woodson is that he had about 5 or 6 big plays that were highlight reel quality but it's not really enough to warrant the Heisman. Give him defensive player of the year honors or whatever and that's it. While we're on this subject, Danny Woeful lost to FSU in 1996 but still won the Heisman.

If nothing else Bischoff has been better than when Flair ran Raw. Hell all Flair did was book the NWO vs. Austin/Bradshaw every week. I actually have gotten quite used to Bischoff running Raw. I'd say if anything it makes the Raw side stable, instead of the South American style "here today, gone tomorrow" GMs of Smackdown. If anything Teddy Long needs to be ousted on SD, they could say that under his watch the show has been moved to the bleh Friday slot and he's let JBL run amock, etc.

For some reason I can't imagine Hogan going down to a friggin superkick. I can see him getting a bogus Montreal type win on Hogan but for some reason I just can't see Hogan jobbing clean here. It's a tough match to book really...on one hand Michaels needs a big win to vault into title contention, but on the other Hogan can't afford to job too many times if he's going to face Austin at WM next year. I figure there's always time to rebuild Hogan though, WM is a long time off. A loss for Michaels would be a big setback for him, moreso than Hogan.

I wouldn't mind HHH being the main booker or writer if he himself wasn't wrestling. If he was booking I think the shows would at least get back to actual wrestling, since he's a fan of old NWA stuff. There's really only so many more times he can do the whole "Win the title then job repeatedly and make someone a star" schtick.

Sure, Michaels was hated...I know I fucking loathed his ass. And yes I'll admit I watched WM 14 more to see him finally get his than for Austin to win the title (I had yet to fully embrace Austin). That said, after he lost I didn't want to see him anymore. His time was over. Done. I didn't want to see him get rematches, or get the title back...I just wanted his ass gone. One reason he was so hated is that they kept pimping him as some sort of great champion during his last run in 1997/98. I mean my god, everyone knew he had ZERO credibility with the title and got it in a flagrant screwjob. As I said, there was simply nowhere for Michaels post WM 14. He was too rebellious to be a Vince stooge to feud with Austin, so he'd likely be tossed from DX and done a face turn and been a distant #2 behind Austin. Or he could have just been released and sent packing to WCW. I could look up the buyrates and compare the shows Bret headlined as champion with the Shawn shows. I'd think the buyrates from roughly late 1992 through 95 would certainly beat whatever Michaels drew as champion in 1996-97.

You know sadly enough that idea makes sense. What the hell, it's not like Chavo is any worse of an idea than pushing Jericho (without him, you know, winning a match) at this point. But yeah, most likely it's either his release or eventually a trade back to Smackdown. I have no idea why he would do this gimmick on the Raw side, since it has no context. If he did it on Smackdown where the Mexicools are it might be interesting, or you could have Uncle Eddie try and smack some sense into him.

This show was at least better than previous weeks if nothing else due to Michaels getting trashed in Montreal as we knew he would be. I too thought they'd have the lame midget crap with Bret and was glad they didn't. I dunno if anyone has thought about this, but does anyone get the feeling Bret will show up at SS to prevent Hogan from getting screwed the way he was? It's really kind of mind boggling since it would be at the MCI Center in DC, which is where Starrcade 97 took place...and on that show Bret made his WCW debut by stopping the "screwjob" in the Hogan/Sting match (even though there really wasn't a fast count). I know Bret can't wrestle anymore but it'd be nice to see him as a special guest ref or an enforcer, etc.

It seemed like the AL and NL west divisions were both awful in 1994 or 95. Didn't the Dodgers get in with a .500 type record in 1995?

I don't really think so. 2002 was a disaster from a booking standpoint but at least there were several really excellent matches, even some on free TV (like the RVD/Eddie ladder match, or anything with the Smackdown 6). I personally think 2003 was simply the deadzone. I didn't even see SS that year due to a cable problem and have never felt any urge to watch it. I saw WM 19 down in FL and have never had the slightest desire to watch again.

I will reiterate it: Shawn was passe by 1998. I don't mean in terms of not having good matches, it's just that he was injury prone by that point, a backstage cancer, and was seemingly holding the WWF back from attaining new heights. WM 14 did an awesome buyrate for a lot of reasons: It was finally Austin winning the title, nearly every match seemed to have a compelling storyline, and at long last Michaels was going to get the shit kicked out of him. The Bret argument doesn't fly since he was the champ in the WWF when the company was at least still the #1 company. In fact WCW didn't surpass the WWF until he went on a long hiatus after WM 12. WCW's ratings slide had little to do with Bret, they didn't do shit with him.

They aren't even making a pretense of Jericho having a shot at SS are they? I haven't seen such a lack of build since Candido got a shot at Taz on an ECW PPV and Joey Styles literally said Candido was a jobber that had zero chance (and he didn't, but luckily that PPV had RVD/Lynn to sell it).

A lot of ECW shows have that effect. They seem really intense and amazing when you first see it, then you get desensitized. The ONS PPV had me marking out harder than anything I've seen all year, but oddly enough I can't say I wanna watch it every day.

Raven is a solid in ring performer and while he's not the absolute best he has a mind for the booking end and can plan the match to hide his weaknesses.