Kahran Ramsus

If Orton wins at Mania I never watch the WWF again. I can't stand the Undertaker but his streak still means something and it would be the ultimate slap in the face for it to be broken by someone like Orton. I won't go that far, but I certainly won't be happy. They might as well have jobbed him out to Viscera. It would be a complete waste to have him job to Orton at Mania. Taker will be tainted by losing his streak, and it could easily ruin Orton's career. Putting Orton over is lose-lose. You can at least salvage this terrible feud if Taker wins.

If Taker wins, I will be quite happy actually. Also, if Orton wins, then Shawn HAS to job. Otherwise Smackdown looks like an even bigger joke than it already is.

Taker's power is the only thing that doesn't make this a sure thing. How Vince sees so much in someone like Orton is astonishing. He's our generation's Lex Luger. Constantly pushed despite fans hating the guy..

This isn't about accolades in a fake sport. It is about what fans are willing to believe. They do not believe that Orton is anywhere close to the level of the Undertaker at Wrestlemania. Him winning would be as big of a joke as Steven Richards going over HHH for the World Title. Any other time, and he might be able to get away with it. But if he ends the streak, his career as a viable main eventer is over. He'd never recover from the backlash that the fans give him. Think X-Pac. They need to rebuild him. You don't just put him over Taker right away.

It is the worst thing that would happen. You can't just put Steven Richards over HHH because the fans wouldn't buy it. He has to earn credibility first, at least enough so that the fans would buy him going over Taker. Trust me, the fans will shit all over it if Orton wins. He has to job clean. Anything else is the wrong decision.

He's not talented or charismatic enough to do a promo with substance, so he has to resort to cheap heat.

I get the impression he is going over too, but I sure hope not.

Bret Hart was ready to jump to WCW in 1992 and this is why he dropped the IC Title to the Mountie (the illness was made up not to make him look weak should he resign). Myth or reality?

Guess they never should have traded Shaq.

He does care about them, because torturing them is how Vader draws Luke to Bespin in the first place. He knew that Luke would sense it and come after him. But turning a loved one evil is even worse than killing them. I don't think Vader would have gotten the quite same reaction if he simply said that he would kill his sister. I also think that Vader severly underestimated the effect of that statement would have on Luke, given that he ended up being caught by surprise when Luke attacked him. It is also easier to protect someone's life than it is to guide their will.

Actually it is Vader that almost pushes Luke over the edge by bringing Leia into it, although it didn't have the effect that he was expecting. Luke ended up lashing out against his father instead of Palpatine.

Time has not been good to him. He looks like he's 40+.

There are only two on the front page, so it is fine for now. And this thread is mainly for discussion on the Luke/Vader issue. If the board becomes cluttered with them, I might have to, but it until then I see no problem with leaving things the way they are.

I mean in the Original Trilogy. Palpatine's involvment is vital in the creation of the Emprire, but his last real important act is disbanding the Senate in Episode IV. From that point on Palpatine really declines in importance, and with the structure of the Empire all set up by then, Vader could easily rule as Emperor. Vader didn't have the ambition to create the Empire, but he would have no problem taking Palpatine's place later on in ESB & ROTJ. Yes. This is what I am arguing. And it is Luke that finally eliminates the Sith. Eliminating the Sith and starting a new Jedi Order is a bigger deal than purging all but a handful of Jedi. If the Empire was around for hundreds of years, I would argue the opposite. But it falls and the Jedi return to power within the next generation, so Vader obviously didn't have any long lasting impact.

Either against Diesel at XII or against Sid at XIII. It was definitely being talked about by XIII.

And we finally get to an argument that I can listen to. This is actually a good point.

1) What is your favorite WM, top to bottom, of all time? XVII. Great matches, some fun gimmick stuff (Vince/Shane, Battle Royal), and just an overall good show, aside from that short 6 Man Tag and the Women's Title match. Even Test had a good match here. 2) What is your least favorite WM of all time? XV. Complete garbage aside from the main event (which was still one of the worst Rock/Austin matches ever) and the somewhat fun Euro Title match. 3) What is your favorite WM match? Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin. This match saved the WWF from bankruptcy by creating the monster. It was brilliantly booked, and is the best WWF Brawl ever with the best ending to any match in North American history. 4) What is your least favorite WM match? Undertaker vs. Big Bossman. Everything that is wrong about Vince Russo and 1999 in general in one match with some of the worst commentary ever. 5) Name some honorable mentions for favorite match: Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon The Rock vs. Steve Austin (XVII) HHH vs. Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Benoit Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage 6) What is your favorite WM venue? The Silverdome. Easily. 7) What is your least favorite WM venue? Arrowhead Pond. Notorious for crappy crowds and yet they put TWO Wrestlemanias there. 8) Going in, which WM card do you think looked the best on paper? XVII. There were so many good matches here that the only questions were with regards to timing issues. Rock/Austin, HHH/Taker, Benoit/Angle, TLC were four big time matches. 9) Going in, which WM card do you think looked worst on paper? XI. It was mainevented by Bam Bam & LT, and the WWF match featured the worst WWF Champion ever. Hart/Backlund & Jarrett/Razor were rematches in feuds that were dying a slow death. The most interesting thing was what Owen was doing and who his partner was going to be. 10) What do you think is the most underrated WM of all time? II. A great tag title match, another good tag match, a good battle royal, a good boxing match, and Hogan/Bundy did its job. A much better show than Wrestlemania I, yet this one gets more hate. It isn't a great Mania, but it is far from the worst that it is often credited as being. 11) What do you think is the most overrated WM of all time? XIV. Often considered to be in the top five Manias ever, there isn't much here aside from the memorable main event. And even that is overrated. Shawn & Austin had a better match the year before at KOTR. There isn't a lot of crap here, but nothing on the card gets above average. Middle of the road all the way. 12) What is your favorite WM moment? Chris Benoit wins the World Heavyweight Title and celebrates in the ring with Eddy Guerrero. One of the biggest markout moments for me ever. As I said at the time. They both could job their titles the next week in squash matches to the new Undisputed Champion Sylvan Grenier, and that moment would never be taken away. 13) What is your least favorite WM moment? There are two schools of thought on this one, so I will put them both. First, the moment that pissed me off the most, which was Hogan winning the WWF Title from Yokozuna at IX in a joke match. It turned Bret, Yoko & the title into jokes in a matter of seconds. The other is the moment which I thought was the stupidest thing I've seen in Wrestlemania history, which was the entire Butterbean/Bart Gunn fiasco. It is crap like that why wrestling is not respected in the US. 14) Who would you pick as the top three Wrestlemania performers of all time? 1 - Randy Savage. He has three absolute classics, one of which was with a terrible wrestler. He wrestled four matches in one night to become the first real champion other than Hogan in 4 years. He even had a decent going away party at X. He delivered when it came time for the big show. 2 - Steve Austin. Defined Wrestlemania in the late 90s/early 00s, and in a couple of classics in his own right. Even his lesser matches (like with Savio or Shawn) were pretty good. Aside from the disasterous Hall match, he did what he was there to do and more. 3 - Bret Hart. Wrestled in the two greatest matches in Wrestlemania history. After one of them he went on to win the WWF Title later that night. Even early on at II, III & IV he was a memorable part of the show. 15) How many of the previous 20 Wrestlemanias have you seen? Twenty. 16) What was the most surprising WM moment to you? Rick Rude winning the IC Title at V. I never saw that coming at all. 17) Who was your favorite "special guest" at a WM? Morton Downey Jr & Roddy Piper at V. One of the most memorable parts of the show. 18) Which WM have you seen the most times? V. One of my favourite Wrestlemanias and one that I have watched tons over the years. I used to watch it all the time as a kid. 19) Which WM commentary team was your favorite? Gorilla Monsoon & Jesse Ventura. It still isn't the same without them. 20) Above all, what do you want to see at WM this year? Batista demolish HHH for the World Title.

I would want to live in the same situation so your argument is invalid. I don't have a living will either, so should you kill me even though I don't want to die. That's murder. And if one person thinks that way, another could easily want to live too. Just because you won't recover, doesn't mean you want to die.

Yeah, you turn to the dark side if you give into your hatred. Obi-Wan against Maul was just acting in self-defense. You are right about the stuff concerning the Emperor's actions. Actually, Luke does try to cut him down, but as you said Vader defends him. And even if he didn't, the Emperor would probably just zap him. However, even though the Emperor is quite clearly the puppetmaster, I feel that Vader is the true villain of the series. Most of the main plotlines revolve around him. Palpatine's like Blofeld in Thunderball. Sure he's the boss, but the main villain is Largo. He's also the real might of the Empire. It is doubtful that the Emperor would be able to gain as much power as he does without him (at least until Luke comes into the picture), whereas if Vader was in Palpatine's place, things probably wouldn't change a whole lot. And Vader was definitely interested in getting Luke to join him and off Palpatine, so the Emperor was not the only one doing scheming. Although Palpatine comes closer to turning Luke than Vader does, they both end up failing. Although arguments that Palpatine is the main villain are certainly a lot more convincing than the ones that try to claim that Vader is the main hero.

I'm going to need more than a single comment, and the other points are irrelevent.

I was talking about the Hulk Hogan character.

Using that logic he could just shoot her in the head because she's his property. You still can't perform criminal acts on them.

I was never a big Hogan fan, but I was displeased with him after Royal Rumble 1992 when he pulled Sid out, and I despised him after Wrestlemania IX. Before Rumble 1992 I pretty much just ignored him. I like him better now than I ever did as a kid. I don't mean it in that I want to see Hogan wrestling again, but that I enjoy his 80s/early 90s work a lot more than I used to. As a kid I hated Hogan/Slaughter, but I actually enjoy it now.

It tends to be called the Angle Lock in promotional material, video games and other WWE products. The announcers call it the Ankle Lock.

I'm not saying that she will come out of this. I'm saying maybe she wants/wanted to live with it.