The Truthiness

Count me third in the Cena isn't on steroids club. Well, not since his Prototype days anyway.

I agree. He knew the name of Kofi's finisher. So now he knows one move instead of the zero he did when he started. Uno, Dos, Adios! Pay dirt, baby, pay dirt.

That match was cool. I know people aren't going to agree, but Adamle has improved.

It's not that I don't like you... okay, well, sometimes I don't, but that's not the point. It's mostly just arguing about stupid wrestling shit. And while some of your opinions hit me like someone saying "you know, I saw Laurence Olivier's version of Hamlet last night, and it fucking sucked, thank god I watched the awesome Ready to Rumble to get the bad taste out of my mouth", but some of the other stuff you say I actually agree with. You're right, Joe generally probably shouldn't be doing hour-long matches, especially against a guy like CM Punk who's half his size and looks like Joe should be able to break him over his knee. I just think it's impressive that he can have a match that long if called to do so, while the majority of wrestlers can't do that. Well it wouldn't be Ready to Rumble, it would probably be Menace 2 Society.

Fair enough.

Stop acting like your opinion is fact. You're not providing factual evidence here. "JBL set up Cena's comebacks" is the sort of DVDVR-ish debating which just pisses me off, because 1.you don't know who planned what out there (could've been JBL, Cena, an agent, the referee giving them spots he's been told over his earpiece, etc), and 2.what the hell does it mean? It sounds like making an argument, but it's the kind of statement which is so vague that it doesn't impart any actual information. I never said it was fact Jingus, I didn't think I had to let it be known that these are just MY opinions. I think we all know, that everything said in here is opinions, none of it is fact, I'm explaining why I like JBL more than Joe. I didn't even bring JBL in this conversation, luke-o did. We could've kept talking about Joe, but anytime you talk about Joe, somebody in WWE gets brought up, usually Umaga. I don't even know why we're talking about JBL.

I never said JBL was transcending the profession, or anything of the like Luke. What I'm saying is, I don't see what Joe does better than JBL, I don't see it. I've been top many shows and seen Joe live while he was in ROH, and like I said I wasn't impressed then, and I don't see it happening now. Luke-o I appreciate you're at least being civil, in this conversation and not making petty attacks, you too Jingus, eventhough I know you both don't like me.

Is that why he knocked Angle out that one time? I think it was also a couple of times in ROH where he was too stiff with opponents. Joe is 280 pounds, with a head dropping and stiff striking offense, he shouldn't be wrestling hour long matches, it just screams "Look at me, I'm fat, and can go 60 minutes". JBL's offense is believable, and outside of the Meanie incident and a few disciplinary actions, that he was told to do. I don't remember him ever hurting anyone, Joe on the other hand like I said, knocked Angle loopy and then Kurt still had to finish the match. JBL bumps well, and he doesn't bump the same way for every adversary like Joe, you can watch the matches with Rey and Eddie, than turn around and watch his matches with Cena, Taker, and Booker and see he changes up his bumps very good, and it lends itself extremely well to whoever he is opposite with, and his punch selling is also good, he leans in to a guys punches and make it look devastating, Joe is nowhere in the league of JBL in bumping or selling. Joe doesn't set up comebacks for a guy better, the most recent example of this, was the match this past Sunday with Cena, I mean the way JBL set up that Full nelson spot, that arm bar spot, and that waist lock spot. He set all Cena's comebacks up well, and his cut off's were just as good. He brought the stiffness, and the mat wrestling Sunday, and set up a tremendous finish in that match, it was awesome. JBL didn't carry Cena by any means, but his offense and Cena selling made that match tremendous. That match completely smoked Joe/Angle Lockdown, and they basically started the contest the same way Joe/Angle started, the difference is they made it work for 20 minutes and didn't have to go all MMA to make it look sensible. Joe/Angle spent 10 minutes doing MMA bullshit that went nowhere, and shockingly it wasn't Angle's blunder this time around. He had Joe in a figure four for about 3 minutes, and Joe is up doing his ridiculous kicks and muscle buster like it is nothing. It was almost like the FF gave Joe’s leg power, instead of doing any significant damage. This just one instance of how JBL>>>>Joe, but there are a few more

Who has the book on Smackdown now, Dusty?

Didn't say Heyman didn't have anything to do with it, not one time. I'm saying Taz pulled it off, Joe was booked the same way by Gabe and it still wasn't as believable as Taz. Heyman ad Taz have both said, that Taz never wanted to talk, but Heyman seen he'd be a great promo guy, and Heyman was right. So yeah, Heyman did help him out, but Heyman didn't cut the promo's, that was all Taz, he made the character believeable. Justin Creible was booked good, but nobody brought in to him, because he sucked. A booker can only help structur a gimmick, he can't make the fans buy in to the character , if the character can't pull it off. Tell me about it. Fans crying in MSG, because you finally win the championship, doesn't happen without charisma. People chanting your name all over the world, no matter who your in the ring with, doesn't happen without charisma. Being one of the most over characters face or heel for over 10 years, in the 2 biggest wrestling companies ever, doesn't happen without charisma. The guy is a piece of shit, but he had charisma.

Why do they wait until they get a push to do stupid shit like this?

That's a lie man and you know it. No it's not. When you responded to me, you didn't say a single thing about the comment I had left which was actually part of the discussion. You were just looking for someone to argue and trade insults with, so no, I do not know it. Didn't I tell you not to post in that thread? You just want me to do something, don't you. I'll delete all your posts, but next time you post in there, I'll know you're trolling, and then, well....I don't want to do that though. So don't! We've gone weeks without problems, I don't think we need one right now. Man, I didn't even say anything to you, you quoted me, and said "You're telling, and not asking me what not to say" . That in itself is flame baiting, and shouldn't be something a mod does. I never even said anything to you, and you came off at me like that. So yeah, I did respond and defend myself, who wouldn't? Like I said I won't be told what I can't say, especially if I'm not insulting anyone. I mean damn, all this because you don't like a certain wrestling feud? Initially the post wasn't about you, I was just responding to Matt Young. As it is now, I'm starting to believe that maybe you do feel that way, and the post I made does apply to you. You started this thing man, just man up, and admit you was wrong. The thread proves you was the one doing the baiting not me. Nothing, people just like to see the champ go through the roster in 2 months. Don't put words in my mouth. When first thinking of how to respond to this, I figured I'd ask you not to. Instead, I'm telling you. Telling me? 1st off man, I wasn't even talking to you, 2nd off I didn't even read your post past the raw preview, so I didn't know you said that. 3rd and finally don't threaten me, I know your mod and all, but you don't "Tell me" what not to say. Yeah, I told you. Now the conversation is done, and you're done posting in this thread. That whole sequence is you doing all the baiting. If you weren't talking about King then who were you talking about? If you're going to complain about a mod/mods post a link and be specific. If this was directed at me CWM, I can tell you I wasn't talking about anybody in particular. I had seen The raw thread earlier yesterday, read the preview and left it alone. When I logged back in to the board I seen Matt Young posted in the thread, I thought we couldn't even post in the thread until 9:00 pm, usually 909 post the preview and never leaves his own response so I never thought to look for one from him. I posted on raw thread link and it sent me right to Matt Young's post, so again I never seen 909's post. I responded to Young's post, and left it at that. Than I come back and see 909 going off about "not asking, but telling me" don't put words in his mouth. If he would've asked, he would've known that I wasn't talking to him or about him. I know it's easy to get things confused over the internet, but he just went overboard for no reason. It was a simple misunderstanding that could've been killed out of the gate. He just has something personal against me. I don't know what it is exactly, but I have never done anything to him. Our only other encounter was the bps21 thing, and he has to admit that I apologize and didn't bitch about my warning than. He was one of the few people in the JD roundtable that wasn't outright bias, and made some good points. So I really don't know where all this is coming from, banning me out of threads and all these other threats is just sad, because I honestly didn't do anything to the guy, and he knows that.

Wasn't the SS match, the match Angle was yelling at Eddie to stop selling and to get up, so Angle could get all his moves in?

That's a lie man and you know it.

That match should be awesome.

Nothing, people just like to see the champ go through the roster in 2 months. Don't put words in my mouth. When first thinking of how to respond to this, I figured I'd ask you not to. Instead, I'm telling you. Telling me? 1st off man, I wasn't even talking to you, 2nd off I didn't even read your post past the raw preview, so I didn't know you said that. 3rd and finally don't threaten me, I know your mod and all, but you don't "Tell me" what not to say.

Yeah, that match was awesome, especially that Full nelson sequence.

That last elbow Misawa gave Joe to the back of the head was very symbolic, it was like a mercy killing of that match for the audience.

Yeah, they both like Orange/Black wrestling gear also. Yeah Heyman helped bring it out, but the excution was all Taz. Joe worked for this era's Heyman, in Gabe, but Joe has never convinced he was a bad ass even in ROH. You can blame Russo for being a bad booker, but you can't blame him for Joe not having a personality, this has always been a problem for Joe. Taz cutting awesome promo's has nothing to do with bookers. Taz making me believe he'll break a guys neck, had nothing to do with Heyman. Taz calling out Sabu, after choking guys out for 1 1/2 years, might have been Heyman's idea but he wasn't the one out there making me hope Sabu would answer. When Taz stood across the ring looking at his opponent like he was about kill him, he made me believe he might do just that, not Heyman. Yeah, Joe is living proof that it's possible. Seriously, if you're saying Benoit didn't have charisma, that's just blatantly wrong. In the ring yeah, Joe is fine, if by fine you mean he's passable.

Nothing, people just like to see the champ go through the roster in 2 months.

I really don't think Joe has a better match than Eddie/JBL from Judgment Day, or a better match than JBL/Mysterio Judgment Day 2006, also his matches with Booker T and Benoit were better than anything Joe has done. Yeah, Joe has a lot of good matches, no disputing that, but they were just that, good matches. The Joe/Kobashi match was awesome, just for the historic significance, is probably the only match that comes close to JBL best matches. That was Joe's best match ever and it was mostly because of Kobashi, than you turn around and watch Joe/Misawa, and it is just horrible, and even the commentators started laughing at Joe's performance, he was exposed. The last time Joe was truly awesome, outside of the Kobasi match, it was his 2 matches with Nigel and Morishima during his farewell tour in ROH. The only similarities between Joe and Taz, is they both wear/wore towels to the ring. Taz was twice the character, and was more of a convincing badass than Joe. People weren't slapping him around and calling him a fat piece of shit, if they said anything in that range, Taz would annihilate them. Because that is what a badass does. Taz could also cut awesome promo’s that made you believe he was a badass; the guy was full of charisma and played his part perfectly. Joe is nowhere in the league Taz was. What Joe is today, is what Benoit was his whole career a guy the fans love, and who should be stuck around the upper midcard, and dominate people on the lower midcard. He should be the guy that destroys guys on his course to the title, but constantly loses the title match after a hard fought encounter. He should essentially be used as a less talented, less fascinating, and less charismatic version of Benoit. The fans care for him, let them love him, and give him some big feuds every now and then, but he ought to just be used to get over the stars. When the moment comes to turn him heel, give him a talking head and let him turn in to a hired gun type character, or an enforcer of a stable. He has no personality, so book him in a way, where he doesn't really have to show any. But never bank on him to be 'the top guy", that you’re prepared to bet millions on, he just doesn't have it. The guy is good; I've been a little too hard on him. What I'm basically saying is the guy is built for the midcard; he is not a name to build a company around.

Genoa made Brock tap at Survivor series, and lost a very good match against Brock on Smackdown that Decemeber. He also won a feud with Albert that fall, he was in a angle with Heyman, where Heyman was making sure he wouldn't get a title shot, and than I believe he won the Rumble and went to RAW, and started the angle with HBK and HHH. I believe he went through everybody in Evolution, and only lost to Michales on Raw in the build up to the mania 3 way. He didn't really lose much from december 2003-March 2004.

Not just because of the gimmick, but how the matches are structured to fit that gimmick, and how he can work in a variety of ways with different faces. Being a good worker isn't about who watches the most puro matches and can do all the moves from those matches (JOE). It is about having a good character and having a style of wrestling and the personality that compliments that character, so that when they get in the ring with another character. They can combine their wrestling style and personalities, create a good story, and sell it to the fans. JBL does this well, with a variety of opponents. Joe, doesn't do this well. Joe was at his best when he was in ROH, because at least he had guys like Danielson, who could lay out good matches with anybody, and guys like Nigel, Low Ki, and Homicide, because they could recklessly stiff each other. In ROH, that is acceptable, because the company is shooting for a niche audience, and that is what the audience is paying/wants too see. TNA isn’t shooting for that, they’re shooting for a bigger mainstream audience. Joe isn’t the guy that’s going to bring that crowd in, unless something drastic happens in the next few months.

Joe is not that far from a average worker. The "he sucks because he isn't motivated" defense, is such a pussy excuse and cop out, that I really don't take it seriously. If "lack of motivation" is the reason he's mediocre worker, than he doesn't deserve to be the champion. But I doubt "lack of moativation' is the reason Joe has been sucking for 2 years, maybe he just isn't, you know, that good. To be honest, I wasn't that impressed with him in ROH either. You think JBL is a good worker. He's not. I think the reason his matches have been lacking in the past year has been who he's opposite. Kurt can still pull it out every now and again but hasn't been on form for ages, Steiners' run in TNA has been better than usual, but nothing spectacular... actually who else has he faced other than Christian (who he had a great matche with)? His gimmick is he's a "mauling millionaire", and he does it well, everything from his style of wrestling to his promo's go perfectly with the character he is potraying, and he draws great heat. He's a perfect foil for any face in WWE, there is nothing wrong with JBL. Samoa Joe is supposed to be a badass, but his style doesn't scream badass unless he's in the ring with a X division guy, who's bumping like a pinfall for his laughable offense. None of the heels seem to take him seriously, and his main ally has been treating him like a goof for months now. None of that screams baddass, plus him having a generic name and a generic look doesn't do him any favors either. Comparing JBL with Samoa Joe is not really something you want to do, because Joe doesn't hold up well against him.

When is the draft?