The Truthiness

Yeah, reminds me of Helmsely/Mcmahon regime.

Jericho might still win MITB, but he might be the 1st guy that loses when he gets the title shot.

Show is bullying people, Mayweather is defending Rey, Show is the face, Mayweather is the heel...Got to love wrestling fans.

Jericho looked like a bitch...a little.

B-B-Because he isn't a "Serious wrestler". That Moneymayweather segment was awesome...Ya Dig?

Did Santino yell "YOU Lose!" after he socked Lawler? "I got your delicious Sammich Lawler"

That would've been hilarious.

I think he was saying he rather watch Cena than Angle and HBK, I think millions of other people feel the same way.

I miss the racism, what exactly was racist?

The sad thing is Colin still has to go to the showers.

LMAO @ Flair giving HBK the business.

Got to love Vince staying in character.

I don't see how londrick is really better than Morrison/Miz, they've been jobbing for about a year.

HEEL TURN~!

Londrick going to get a win tonight...right?

Any time man, that's all people have to do is ask question, a lot bullshit could be avoided. No doubt, there are a few guys who could go hold for hold with Bret any day of the week. The thing is Bret made the holds mean more than am lot of guys; a simple head lock would play in to the big picture Bret was painting in his matches. He just brought an emotion and a sense of importance to everything he did in his matches that it's hard not to consider him not a great worker. Bret just had a certain presence that he would bring to the ring, everything he did from 92-97 gave you a big fight feel. It all had meaning. He wasn't in there with slouches all the time, but some time he was. Isaac Yankem, Sid, and even a green Rocky Maivia. He had a few matches with those guys that were better than they had any right to be. But you're right, more times than not, he was matched up with good workers, which is why I didn't like how he took credit for carrying everybody in his book. Or how he totally no sold how good Ric Flair was. I too think Punk is terribly inconsistent, and is overrated by a lot of people. I think that all falls on him, because on the Indies he was something special and he did seem like a diamond in the rough, nothing much has changed these days. He's still seems to have a good spot on the show, despite having most of the agents not care for him. He is still over, which really helps him out when it comes to having so much heat, but I can see why an agent would get annoyed with his work. On paper you'd think Punk/Chavo would be an awesome series, but looking back at those matches I was much underwhelmed. They weren't bad at all, still they wasn't what I expected, which is more Punk fault than Chavo's in my opinion, it seem like Chavo worked his ass of in those matches, where as Punk went out there just to pop the crowd and get himself over because he knew he was jobbing. His promo work on the indies was a little corny, but he seemed comfortable on the mic, and every now and again he would do a brilliant promo, especially during The Raven and The Summer Of Punk' storylines in ROH. I can see you not liking Indy style, and I 'm using ROH as the measuring stick here so bare with me. Some time it comes off very boring and very redundant. In ROH you have about 3 people doing the same thing in their matches, and it always been like that. They went from a company that wanted to be like NJPW 94 junior's division, than they went in to more of a All Japan style with Joe, than they turned him in to a traveling NWA champ (like Flair) during his feud with Punk, and they seemed to be stuck in a hole until Punk freshened up the company with his 3 month title reign. Then they went in to the Danielson era which is usually viewed as secondary, since it was during the CZW/RoH feud. Many people didn't care about AMdrag during the period, and was more interested in a hot storyline that made sense and made for some compelling TV. That's what Indy wrestling needs, but as long as Gabe has an infatuation with different Japan companies, of course it's going to be boring to a lot more traditional wrestling fans. This might be your problem with Indy wrestling Pong, it's not trying to be entertaining (like you said) it's trying to be too much of a sport, while that works in Japan, it'd never work in the USA...And it shouldn't, Wrestling isn't a fucking sport. The Champions all go through a phase, where it seems like they just have to have long title reign, for the fuck of it. The truth is, ROH has run through a lot of their best storylines in the last 4 months, and this comes after the Champ Nigel has been injured most of the time. I don't have a problem with Khali, BDV, and Henry. They (like you said) are guys used to bully and maul guys, until a "superstar" comes and stop them. They're perfectly good excuses to be used as road blocks to the championship, or guys that is used to get over a Champion's "All odds against him" storyline. If people are really thinking that every super heavyweight is going to be Taker, Vader, or Show they have to realize those guys come once every blue moon, and that's actually why guys like Vader, Taker, Shown, Umaga and even Kane are so special. I personally think Henry could've been added to that list, if they didn’t just feed him to taker after getting him over in 2006 and 2007. They fed him to Taker both times, and he had really become a good worker, yeah it took about 10 years but he finally found a gimmick that worked for him. He's good on the mic and is capable of having good matches with everybody on the roster. He could've surely been up there with Umaga as a threat. Khali is as good as he's going to get for his size, he's used to hit guys hard, slam them, and squeezes there brains out. He is doing nothing offensive as a worker; he's just a big slow guy. BDV is perfectly acceptable as a guy you use to get over a superstar, or elevate a new guy to super star status. He'll never be a champion, and if he is it'd be something like the IC or Us Title, which would liven up the division, and gets who ever beat him over. The guy isn’t really bad at anything; he's just a very tall and fat guy, which will always be a plus in pro wrestling. I agree with most of this, until you said the fans were "apathetic" to Benoit and Brock. I completly agree, I rather watch Rock and Austin punch, kick, and do their signature spots in a epic clash, than sit through Danielson wrestle for 60 minutes,for the sake of wrestling 60 minutes in a "indy dream match". I'm glad Danielson has transformed in to a ass kicker, because he is right now better than I ever seen him, I got to give a lot of the credit for that too Morishima.

Well, if you're serious Pong, I wouldn't mind giving my opinion on what I consider to be a great worker. I'm serious...no sarcasm intended...sorry if you got that impression. Well Pong, my opinion of a great worker is a guy like Bret Hart. I know I might get a lot of slack for that, and people might see it as the reason that I give HBK such low marks. This is understandable. Bret Hart brought an epic feel to his matches, and it didn't matter if he was fighting for his jacket with a pirate, an evil dentist who wants to yank his teeth out, Jerry Lawler for talking about his parents, Stone Cold for being a bully, Personal hate for HBK, or anybody for the WWE Title. They all felt different and they all felt like something important, Bret made you feel like that. He also made you feel that the guy he was getting in the ring with might be the one to execute, "The Excellence of Execution, no matter how goofy they looked. I think being a great worker is a guy who delivers from the word go and gives you a emotional ride whenever he's in the ring, and I think Bret is a perfect example (or Eddie) when it comes to this. Bret would start his matches out simple; he'd feel the guy out and see how he would go about working his way to a victory over the guy. If he was in there with Owen, he knew he had to stay on offense, and keep Owen from getting on the ropes. He knew Owen was more athletic than him, and he knew Owen was almost as good a technician as him. So to counter that, he'd ground Owen and beat the shit out of him; "the Rocket" was one of the few guys Bret was bigger than, so he'd overpowered Owen which made sense. When it came time to feed Owen some offense, Bret would make little mistakes, which flowed with the match. Like he'd let Owen frustrate him in to brawling, which would lead to the ref indirectly helping Owen out, Bret would get so wrapped up in beating the shit out of his runt of a brother, that he'd ignore the rules which would lead him to being distracted by the ref, which would lead to Owen controlling the match. This is a simple formula that guys have been using from the beginning of time, but Bret had a way of making every little spot mean something in his matches, and little by little those spots would grow and grow, and Bret had a masterful way of creating big time finishes, that didn't involve any real high impact spots, just smart and sensible wrestling. Sometimes Bret would never get the Sharp shooter on a guy, and he would make the crowd pop by beating them with a package move. The guy would still be over, because he made Bret beat him with something other than the Sharp shooter. Bret made his finisher mean something, a guy like Angle has made his finishers (both of them) mean shit. Bret could brawl, but he didn't really try to out brawl a brawler. Sure he’d go punch for punch with a guy, but more times than not he'd lose those segments. He'd have to find another way to beat these guys who would just maul and overpowered him in matches. So his counter to guys like, Taker, Diesel, Vicious, and Stone cold was to break them down. He'd administer a vast amount of great leg work, and he'd even up the odds with the brawlers. He'd soften then up, so when they would get back in to a brawling segment of the match, Bret wouldn't lose this time, yeah he'd go blow for blow with the guy again, but this time when he felt the guy rocking him with right hands, he'd give him a kick in the knee, than go right back in to controlling his matches. But even when he had taken a leg from the guy, he still made it believable when the guy would come back and take over the match with one leg. Bret would set up a spot where he had to take the turnbuckle bump, a boot to the face, or taking a reckless risk on the outside of the ring. Either way, Bret knew the big guy would have to lead in to the final segment, so he'd take a pretty huge bump that would set it up. But it wasn't anything like a vicious chair shot, a big table spot, or some gruesome blade job. It'd be something simple like a flying in to the guard rail, something that you could believe that wouldn't change the tide of the match, yet not something that would make you suspend disbelief and make you think "Damn, that should’ve ended the match", like a lot of spots in HBK matches. Bret had a great sense of timing and great sense of when and how to build and pull a trigger on a finish, while the crowd was hot and wasn't expecting it. There are few people in this business that's a better seller than Bret was. Bret would take a beating a he would work in the story of the match with brilliant precision and understanding. If he was getting hit by a Giant, he didn't fly across the ring like some guys do. He'd sell everything the Giant does like its death, a punch, a slam, a simple rest hold. Some guys think the way to get a giant over is to do whole lot of unnecessary bumps for the big guy (I.e.: HBK vs. Khali last year on Raw). Bret (like Cena with Khali) you could make a simple punch from a Giant seem like you've been shot by a 12 guage. Anything a Giant does too you should be able to end the match, that's how Bret sold it. He didn't shrug it off with his comebacks, he used a way to outsmart the giant and then take over with his technical mastery. He knew how to incorporate the damage he had sustained in the match earlier, in to get his comebacks cut off. He never ignored his injuries like certain guys do, sure he was potty sometimes, but he never downright ignored it like a lot of these other "Great performers'. Hell Hogan didn't even ignore selling like some guys (Angle) does today, and he was a fucking super hero. This is probably my biggest beef with HBK on a whole, that and it seems to take a lot of damage to end HBK, which isn't a problem if the damage didn't consist of chair shots, big Table spits, and than him kicking out of a guys finisher. It seems very silly too me. Bret didn’t go through all that to build drama, and HBK doesn’t have too either. It seems like a lazy way to build to the finish, which is odd because HBK best finishes come when he doesn't do the extra bullshit. That's why I retract my statement about him not being a "great worker", because he is sometimes. These are just a few things Pong I think make a guy a great worker, Bret Hart was just an example but there are plenty guys out there who I think are great for different reasons. It's all subjective at the end of the day, but I really don't see why people get all emotional about it. Hell I said the shit about HBK months ago, and it seemed to rub people the wrong way that was partly my fault; I even apologized for it at the time. I won't apologize for saying Christian and Kurt Angle aren't very special (or good) in the ring, because they're simply not...In my opinion anyway.

Well, if you're serious Pong, I wouldn't mind giving my opinion on what I consider to be a great worker.

The guy is a twat, all he does it start shit and throws around insults. If I get banned for calling him a moron, so be it. He never contributes anything, all he does is flame people, when he gets proving wrong, fuck that moron.

DING, DING, DING... WE HAVE A WINNER. It's too bad people can't seem to comprehend this. And when has being a bad worker stopped wrestlers from getting a push in the 1st place? You was the 1st one who said he had "potential" to be a "serious wrestler". When it's obvious he doesn't. But hey, you were also the guy who said "Jeff Hardy was over more than Eddie fucking Guerrero", "The US Title was valuable", and "Jeff Hardy was clean". You've said all these in the past 2 weeks, but you've had too eat shit on all 3. It's pretty clear you're a moron, I mean hell you said Koschek could beat GSP... A) I didn't say he had potential to be a serious wrestler, dipshit... I'm just calling you out for not being the right judge of someones workrate... Especially when you say Shawn Michaels and Kurt Angle are not great workers. B) Jeff Hardy in the past few months was just as over as a face then Guerrero was during his time in the WWE... Guerrero was a better heel then he was a face. C) Koscheck could beat GSP, and I've explained my point in the MMA forum... I doubt you even have any MMA knowledge. A: You're a fucking moron..... I guess I'll take a L for saying HBK isn't a "great worker", I can take that. But I won't retract might statements about Kurt being pretty bad, and I think you know Kurt isn't very good yourself, but maybe you don't seeing as you're a fucking moron and all. B: You're fucking moron... Jeff Hardy has never been more over than Eddie, not even in the last 6 months. It doesn't matter if you think Eddie was a better heel than face, the fact remains that Jeff for the last 6 months was not more over than Eddie in in 2004. Just go to youtube and compare the pops yourself...You fucking moron. C; You're a fucking moron, in no planet is Koschek better than GSP, unless you're going with the wishful thinking "Anybody could win on any given day" talking point. As far as skills go, there is no way you could say Koschek is any match for GSP, but maybe you can....Because you're a fucking moron.

DING, DING, DING... WE HAVE A WINNER. It's too bad people can't seem to comprehend this. And when has being a bad worker stopped wrestlers from getting a push in the 1st place? You was the 1st one who said he had "potential" to be a "serious wrestler". When it's obvious he doesn't. But hey, you were also the guy who said "Jeff Hardy was over more than Eddie fucking Guerrero", "The US Title was valuable", and "Jeff Hardy was clean". You've said all these in the past 2 weeks, but you've had too eat shit on all 3. It's pretty clear you're a moron, I mean hell you said Koschek could beat GSP...

I know I wasn't talking about the WM match. I thought the conversation had moved to what to do with Show after WM. I didn't direct that towards you personally. People on these forums have suggesting those various names as better alternatives to Big Show, which I find ludicrous because it shows a fundamental misunderstanding about the appeal of Floyd Mayweather in a wrestling ring. I'm not trying to call anyone out here. Why not Kahli then huh? Hes 3 inches taller and about the same weight as Big Show is now. I think Show doing a program with Khali, directly after mania would kill all his steam right out of the gate.

He's pretty bad at everything, the only thing I seen Santino that was good was kicks to the leg. The most I've seen of his work, was in OVW where he had the MMA gimmick, he was very sloppy and had terrible execution. The gimmick was fine, but he couldn't pull it off in the ring. As it is now, he has a great spot, he's hilarious on the mic, and he gets over huge that way. He's one of those heels that people like to see get his ass kick, because he talks a lot of shit. That's pretty good character too have and it really works for him. No need to fuck it up by trying to make him in too a "serious wrestler".

Anyway, Does anybody see Chavo dropping the title at mania?

But Kurt Angle, Shawn Michaels, and Chrstian are considered bad workers in your opinion... So what you think is irrelevent. You think Santino is a good worker, so your opinion is really irrelevant. Plus, I never said HBK wasn't a good worker, I said he wasn't a great worker. Angle and Christian, yeah they're pretty bad. I like how you flame bait, when you get called out on bullshit it's hilarious.