The Truthiness

I don't care who's pushed, long as they're entertaining. HBK entertains me, I just don't feel he's a great worker. And Jingus you're right, I didn't meant to come off as "I don't like HBk, and you shouldn't either". So I do apologize about that, that was kind of arrogant, and I really didn't meant to offend anyone, or make them feel their opinions were worthless. If a guy think HBK's a great worker, that is fine by me, and I did go a bit overboard and tried to push my beliefs of what worker should be on others, and that was wrong. Again, my apologies. Shawn does look a little like a tranny, though.

This is getting silly, I'm not saying Finlay is more over then Micheals, I'm saying Finlay is a better worker then Michaels. I'm througth with it, didn't know pointing out the flaws of a guy in chaps would ruffle so many feathers. What is all this shit about Rock and Austin being super over? Who doesn't know that? I haven't once said anything about either of those guys, though I think Eddie was on the verge of being on a level right beneath Rock and Austin levels. He did single handely bought a whole new fanbase to WWE, but I'm not getting on that. Oh and he too was 10 times bestter then Michaels, and more over, but I digress. So what about that Lance Cade push?

I think he's just fine in the ring, and has improved a lot, but I can't give him credit for great psychology with his rest holds. There's probably tonne's of workers who do the same thing, but use the holds more of a time waster than anything. Rest holds will always be apart of the sport, I really don't have a problem with them if they make sense. If the guys just kept constantly punching, and doing moves~! Everybody would be wrestling like Angle...Nobody wants that?

Thanks for being my personal spelling checker.

Double post.

Silly Mecca, HBK is like you he doesn't like women.

If he keeps using the Redneck Destroyer, Murdoch > Cade. I hate the destroyer, but Murdoch is great. But based on looks, size, and being a pretty good worker, I see more potential in a Cade push.

So, who's for a Lance Cade push?

This has great tv written all over it.

The nit picky bullshit part is a cop out, and you know it. I'm pretty sure I've said he did have some straight up great performances, just not many. Genius. There is many, I'll give you a list in a minute. It really doesn't matter how well he bumps, if he doesn't know how to sell the bump. Cena is a better seller, and in my opinion a better bumbper then HBK. Cena isn't better then Cena in any area right now. "A better brawler then Rey" Rey is 5'4 and still a better brawler then Micheals, his matches with Eddie were better then anyBrawls HBK was doing around that time, and his brawls with Chavo, JBL, and now Finlay is better then any brawls Shawn has done in the last 3 years. Rey is head over heels a better worker and better overall performer then HBK will ever be. His matches are more exciting then HBK, they make more sense then Hbk's, they have better selling then HBK's, The crowd get involved m,ore then they do a HBK match. HBK compared to Rey is really exposed as a mediocre performer. "A better talker then Matt" You're really reachingm, and losing steam. But ok. "He plays to a crowd better the Finlay" Finlay beat downs are examples of him playing to the crowd, he doen'ty need kip ups and a super burst of adrenaline like HBK to get a crowd to pop. Cena beating the shit out of somebody draws a crowd in more then anything HBK has been doing all year. The best way to play to the crowd, is when you can play to a crowd and not make it obvious that you're playing to the crowd. Tully Blanchard is at fault for telling Micheals "It's about who keeps them yelling \the longest", and it translates in his mediocre match structure. Where as a guy like Finlay doesn't ned all the smoke and mirrors to keep a crowd interested in his matches, and thus why he's been a better performer then Micheals for the last 2 years. "Can do more different type of stuff, then Umaga" Thats just stupid, and makes no sense. The guy isn't better then Umaga, at anything right noiw. You;e really reaching, Umaga matches with Jeff and Cena are better then anything Micheals has done in 2 years. What kind of "different stuff" does Micheals do? LOL. HBK is a much, much better talker than Matt Hardy so I don't know what you're problem with that statement was. Finlay has never elicited a crowd reaction and as talented as he his, a large majority of audiences pay attention to his matches because of who he's facing, not because he does anything to keep them interested. And to say that Umaga is better than HBK at everything right now is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Well Umaga matches with Triple H, Hardy, and Cena are better then anything HBK has done in a looooong time. This isn't really debatable. HBK is good, but he's not even in the top 10 of WWE performers of 2007. If you take away his matches with Cena, HBK name wouldn't even be mentioned in 2007 as best anything. IN 2006 he doesn't have anything better then the Cena/Edge feud, or the Finlay/Benoit matches. Shawn matches do elicit a crowd, because they're hyped up, and are fun usually overbooked clusterfucks, but as a pure in ring performer he's not in Finlay league, I should've been more clear, I apologize. But I'm willing to bet if you put Finlay in a main event feud, you'd get more mileage out of it then a Shawn Micheals feud/match. Finlay is a better character and performer then Michaels. Hell, Just look at Shawn matches with the same guys Finlay has wrestled like Rey and Benoit. They all are better when Finlay is in there, and you can't say Finlay was ever carried, when his job is too be the carrier.

Did Bobby Lashely and Orton Carry him also? Shawn Michaels didn't carry anbody, if Shawn was such a great carry artist like people claim, he would've gotten something decent out of Khali. He didn't. Cena on the other hand got 2 very good matches out of the guy. Cena was basically the reason the match at mania was Micheals was very good. Micheals forte is gimmick matches, Not Cena, Michaels "classic matches" are usually gimmick matches. Cena on the other hand has had awsome matches all year, and has pretty easily surpassed Micheals as a performer, which isn't really a hard feat.

Well if your definition of a brawl is "Punch and kick" then no he isn't. What i'm saying that in a brawling in attmspere he utilizes his style of wrestling to theb situation perfectly. Examples are his matches with Eddie, JBL, Chavo and Finaly. He knew he couldn't go in and match punces with those guys,m so he used his speed and agility to break them down and still do alot of damage. He also brought alot of emotion,. and hatred to those feuds that came off not like a guy trying to survive, but like a guy who came to beat the shit out oif his opponents, and it worked well and qualifies as a brawl when you look at the structure of the match. He took alot of beatings in those feud, yes. But he also dished out alot of beatings, and he came off like quite the bad ass in the process, and that if need be he can not only wrestle but he can "fight" also... Finlay matches seem to always have alot of heat, noit sure what you mean. I've never witnessed a boring/heatless Finlay match on either show, but I'm specifically talking about Smackdown.

I agree completely. All the shit he catches about the headlocks and stuff is stupid. Hell I suppose no one here ever enjoyed the old nwa did they? Just about every match had multiple and long "rest" spots/headlock spots. Orton is way better than he is given credit for and I'm not that easy to please. p It also looks like Orton is really trying to tear a guys head off guy with his chinlocks.

The nit picky bullshit part is a cop out, and you know it. I'm pretty sure I've said he did have some straight up great performances, just not many. Genius. There is many, I'll give you a list in a minute. It really doesn't matter how well he bumps, if he doesn't know how to sell the bump. Cena is a better seller, and in my opinion a better bumbper then HBK. Cena isn't better then Cena in any area right now. "A better brawler then Rey" Rey is 5'4 and still a better brawler then Micheals, his matches with Eddie were better then anyBrawls HBK was doing around that time, and his brawls with Chavo, JBL, and now Finlay is better then any brawls Shawn has done in the last 3 years. Rey is head over heels a better worker and better overall performer then HBK will ever be. His matches are more exciting then HBK, they make more sense then Hbk's, they have better selling then HBK's, The crowd get involved m,ore then they do a HBK match. HBK compared to Rey is really exposed as a mediocre performer. "A better talker then Matt" You're really reachingm, and losing steam. But ok. "He plays to a crowd better the Finlay" Finlay beat downs are examples of him playing to the crowd, he doen'ty need kip ups and a super burst of adrenaline like HBK to get a crowd to pop. Cena beating the shit out of somebody draws a crowd in more then anything HBK has been doing all year. The best way to play to the crowd, is when you can play to a crowd and not make it obvious that you're playing to the crowd. Tully Blanchard is at fault for telling Micheals "It's about who keeps them yelling \the longest", and it translates in his mediocre match structure. Where as a guy like Finlay doesn't ned all the smoke and mirrors to keep a crowd interested in his matches, and thus why he's been a better performer then Micheals for the last 2 years. "Can do more different type of stuff, then Umaga" Thats just stupid, and makes no sense. The guy isn't better then Umaga, at anything right noiw. You;e really reaching, Umaga matches with Jeff and Cena are better then anything Micheals has done in 2 years. What kind of "different stuff" does Micheals do?

I love the big 4, and I always been a sucker for No Mercy for some reason.

Your statement is simple, I never said he was a shitty worker. I pointed out shitty things that he does, that prevent him from being a great worker. He's good sometimes, and when giving a match where he can play off a stipulation, he shines.

You think he's better then Cena, Rey,Matt, Finlay, and Umaga right now? I could easily name 5 more who's been better then HBK all year. Edit: Cena is out "right now", so I meant this years performances.

It was a clusterfuck ending, a good clusterfuck, but still a clusterfuck. The match was great and it was getting very good up until the Clusterfuck ending. They were good, but nothing classic, like you said the 1st time. Stop changing up your argument, buddy. They never had a downright great match, but I agree their tag team matches were good. That WM 11 match really doesn't age well and it isn;'t half as good as their GFBE Match. I'm making point out of the gimkmick matches, mbecause it's the Truth, and that's where the majority of these "Great Performances" by SHawn come from. Which is my point, his regular matches aren't bad, but he only really bshines when he has a stipulation as a crutch. That's not a sign of a great performer. You're really reaching now, 3 ways shouldn't really count in this discussion. But since it further proves my point "Shawn, is only great in gimmick matches" I'll go ahead and let it pass. Why? If the finish overshadows the work leading up to it, that's not a great match. The streetfight was the best match in the series, followed by this match. I never said this wasn't a great match. I actually said this was his best match 9 months after his match with Jericho at mania. It's kind of sad, that a baby was conceived and born during the period of Shawn 2 best matches in 2003 Orton's hold gimmick is based on beating a guys brain in, and he does it well. When he applies the head/chinlock it makes sense with what he's come to be know for in the last 7 months, giving peoplen head injuries. So the stomps to the head, the elevated ddt's, neck/back breaker all mean something and is a perfectly good build to "the kick to the head" oir the RKO. Orton's whole demeanor during matches is awsome right now, the stalking , th facial expression, and his methodical detroying of his opponent ois awsome. Way better the anything Micheals has done in the last 2 years, which is the same damn match evey go round. "No, Cena didn't carry Shawn, period." He did, and it was great because of it. "Let me guess: you were a huge Hitman mark." What the fuck are you talking about? Don't try to turn this in to a Hitman/HBK debate, so then you can go off in another direction with the discussion. This is about you defending HBK being a great worker, and doing it pretty badly. Against me saying HBK is a good-very good performer, but not anything special, unless he has a stip to lean on. " "Bullmotherfuckingshit. Cena is average, Lashley sucks, and Khali REALLY sucks." Cena has been arguably the best worker in the WWE this year, maybe even the world. He's had strong performances every month of the year, and has 4 legit MOTYC. Lashely and Khali both suck, and Cena was able to get the great matches out of one (Lashely at GAB) and a match that was downright better then anything it should be, and actually very good by all standards. I call it great, because Cena carried the guy to something that wasn't just passable, something that totally made you forget Khali sucked. "I'll keep arguing all night long, mastermind."You'll keep losing, Einstein.

Undertaker popping out of a casket, Vader taking 2 hours to get to the ring, and all the street fight shenanigans tdon't qualify as a clusterfuck? Really? A match where the ref is out for the majority of the match, and again breaks in to a street fight which involves the whole roster comoing out to break it up, ending with Suicide dive by Taker, doesn't qualify as a clusterfuck? Really? Where are his classics with Davey Boy? The iron man match was probably one of the most underwhelming matches ever, until the last 10 minutes., Bret and Shawn were basically being pricks through out the match, and there wasn't really a story in the match. It's liked they phoned in the 1st 30 minutes, kicked it up for 10 minutes, and phoned it inb again until the finish. Not a classic. It was basically a long drawed out version of their survivor series match in 1992 I believe, but not as good. The Miracle, he dragged out Nash at WM12 wasn't really that good, and the great match he had with Nash was one of Shawn's great gimmick matches. I've often said the match he had with Benoit in Phoenix was a pretty good match, not great, but pretty good. I really don't think his matches with Angle were that great, they both are fans of that "non stop" style, but neither is really good at it. So when they hooked up, it was pretty good, but nothing that'll stand the hands of time. They have matches against other people that was nice, but they didn't seem to really click that well together, and it seemed they made up for it by going balls to wall, but it still was forgettable. That match with Shelton was very good, but it's only gets praise for the finish. Most of his matches with Triple H were gimmick matchs, do you know what you're talking about? It took them almost 2 years to have a regular match, and that came in December of 2003. His Cyber Sunday match with HHH suffered because he had a bad knee, and even with a bad knee he couldn't sell it right. I can't remember any more of there regular matches, which mean they were forgettable, like a lot of Micheals non gimmick affairs. His just fine match with with Edge were street fights, again a gimmick match. His match with Ortoon this sunday was very good, but thqt wasn't because of Shawn shitty tributes to Benoit, Angle, and Benoit. It was more because of the GIMMICK of Shawn trying to win without SCM, and Orton awsome concussion offense. That's what Shawn needs to be saying. I know, It baffles me to that Shawn has been in the business 25 years and had to get carried by Cena. He's a shitty chain wrestler which was seen in his match vs Angle at mania. The it was seen again, when he couldn't do a decent firemen's carry against Cena at mania. The guy isn't very good at Chain wrestling at all, and I never seen anybody say something so, well, let just say incorrect. His offense is that of a 80's junior weight, and not even a good 80's junior weight. So he never needs to dominate a match with his bad strikes, and even worse attempts at submission holds. The moves~! are not what offends me, it's how shitty it looks by Shawn. Plus it doesn't help that for the last 5 years you can time HBK's "boost of adrenaline" comebacks, it only makes the guy he wrestles look like shit. Batista doesn't stray from his move set and it works for him, Shawn attempts to stray from his move set is fucking hilarious for all the wrong reasons. Shawn benefitted at being at the right place at the right time, he has never ever in any era been the best wrestler in the WWE. Yes... Fair enough, But still he hasn't been shit for the last 2 years (other then HHH little christian sidekick) until he ran in to Cena. The guy is a good upper mid card guy, but he's nothing special as a worker/character, unless a gimmick is involved. On top of that, he's not even the best gimmick match worker in the company. Would you like to continue, smart guy?

I need to see that, he probably deserved it.

I think the superkick is a good knock out blow type move, to help put Shawn over the big guys. That's the only thing I can completly understand about Micheals.

No, I'm not going with Shawn "never worked a great non gimmick match", I'm going with Shawn Micheals is very good, and has had some good matches, but his best matches come when he has a gimmick as a crutch. There is only hanful of great non gimmick, Shawn Micheal matches, and even when a gimmick isn't involved, there are a lot of gimmick spots (Ie: Tables, Gory Blade jobs, or A over booked finish). I think his matches with Cena were great matches, that didn't involve a gimmick, but I say that's more because of Cena then Shawn, but still those matches were after 2 years of HBK not being that good. . And you just lost the debate with that statement. Shawn offense isn't effective enough to dominate a match, but Cena was able to make Shawn look like Vader. Cena went on too have great matches with the likes of Lashely and Khali. HBK went on to do, well, nothing.

Yes it was, Jericho hasn't been that good since, Shawn didn't have another good match that year, until the last raw of that year.

Lushus, you can't argue with the deaf, dumb, and mute. He's not arguing with you.

No, I'm not going with Shawn "never worked a great non gimmick match", I'm going with Shawn Micheals is very good, and has had some good matches, but his best matches come when he has a gimmick as a crutch. There is only hanful of great non gimmick, Shawn Micheal matches, and even when a gimmick isn't involved, there are a lot of gimmick spots (Ie: Tables, Gory Blade jobs, or A over booked finish). I think his matches with Cena were great matches, that didn't involve a gimmick, but I say that's more because of Cena then Shawn, but still those matches were after 2 years of HBK not being that good. .