Some understanding.............

[Guest jester]

Let me try to add something without damaging what has been a great thread.

 

I'm a hhhater too, and like downhome it has little to do with the backstage rumors. I also don't like every last thing being blamed on Triple H. "John Cena wears ugly green tights, Triple H must be forcing him to wear them so he doesn't get over." That kind of crap.

 

Like Downhome, I just find his character boring. Monster unstoppable heels are bad, monster unstoppable faces are worse. A face is only as good as his heel opponents. When Triple H pinned Jericho for the title, it didn't carry any weight because Jericho was never packaged as a credible champion. Yeah, yeah, heels cheats, but they should be able to dominate the low card guys without it. . And because Jericho looked weak, it made Triple H look weak. By comparison, if Jericho had been annihilating everyone before their title match, Trip's beating him would be much more meaningful.

 

One of the reasons I like the Rock is that he will job for quite a few people. That means when he wrestles, anything could happen. That makes things much more interesting. Now be it backstage politics or bad booking or just not thinking ahead, Triple H never loses without at least three people beating him down. And he usually comes right back immediately to mess up three guys. Yawn.

 

I do believe Triple H could be entertaining if they

 

1. Cut his entrance theme. It takes forever.

2. Cut his promo time. Less is more.

3. Make him look human and beatable from time to time.

4. Keep him on the sidelines until he is totally healed and in proper wrestling condition.

5. Had him put over or elevate newer guys.

 

So I may hhhate, but I don't think he's the root of all evil, or incapable of putting on a good show.

 

jester

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Oh, I knew Invasion was an abortion and all, and I DO blame Vince's pigheadedness for ruining it, but I still feel Rock could have said something to Vince about it, that's why I throw a bit of the blame his way.

[Guest M Nyland]

"John Cena wears ugly green tights, Triple H must be forcing him to wear them so he doesn't get over."

that was great....I don't know why........ that's like saying "Hogan paid off Beefcake to cut all that hair off those guys so they don't over"

 

 

It's COHERENT POST day!

 

I realized another thing..... nobody has yet answered my question about the last guy Triple H really put over in a feud....

[Guest the pinjockey]

"I realized another thing..... nobody has yet answered my question about the last guy Triple H really put over in a feud.... "

 

Hogan and the UT i think.

[Guest M Nyland]

Hogan and the UT i think.

well...ya know....cause they needed it.....

 

 

I'm really liking the direction everyone has been taking...now if we can just have this thread spill out into all the others it would be really good for all of us

[Guest the pinjockey]

I'm really liking the direction everyone has been taking...now if we can just have this thread spill out into all the others it would be really good for all of us

don't jinx this thread

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

This probably isn't going to go over well..but..is Jericho really on Triple H's level? I've been a Jerichoholic since I started watching WCW (95-97ish)..but around November/December I just got to the point where I could care less about his character.

 

His moveset looks better against smaller guys. Against bigger ones, it looks less credible..less impact. The Lionsault as a finisher dosen't seem to hold as a finisher with the other's of the level people keep touting Jericho to be. (Like the Stunner, Rock Bottom, Pedigree..or even the Five Star Frog Splash).

 

When it comes to characters..his just comes across as lacking. He was a good face, but he came across as a smaller version of The Rock. His heel work lately has left something to be desired. Don't get me wrong, his match with RVD at King of the Ring was good..but..

 

Compare him with Angle.

 

Angle's ring work is better. He may lack the sense of "ring presence" Jericho has, but in general, his moves look crisper. His promos are more consistent.

 

Does Jericho really have what it takes to be a main eventer? Or are we all just blaming HHH for what may be Jericho's faults?

 

*edit* On the WCW invasion..

 

None of the WCW/ECW people were made to look the least bit credible. That's not Rocky's fault Booker looked pathetic..but to a lot of people, even before that..The Book looked bush league compared to his counterpart. It didn't help that Booker's character was just basically a Rock Clone, either.

 

Van Dam is the only one that looked credible, probably because the fans got behind him.

 

Main Eventers don't have a history of "helping" guys out..most of them, at least. Rock's really the only guy that's tried to elevate somebody for the long term.

[Guest Dangerous A]

Actually pinjockey the last time I can remember HHH putting over Jericho was in the summer of 2000 right after the last man standing match. He said they had a hell of a match and would like to meet him again. They then had a pull apart. Also the way that match was booked made Jericho look like he was on HHH's level.

 

"Does Jericho really have what it takes to be a main eventer? Or are we all just blaming HHH for what may be Jericho's faults?"

 

This is an excellent question. Hopefully it'll get responses on the level of this entire thread.

[Guest Slingshot Suplex]

Rock's big return or not........Booker should have gone over in that SummerSlam match.Spoiling the Rock's big hyped return with a pinfall win...clean or cheating... would have gotten Booker some huge heel heat.When they didn't,it was pretty much dead in the water,as they say.

[Guest M Nyland]

don't jinx this thread

okay.....well then......

 

after Booker T gets out of his feud with the nWo...what is next for him? who can he feud with to keep his upward movement going?

 

my idea would be to have him feud with Chris Benoit or he can stay in the feud with the nWo and when Kane and Nash are healthy they can do Kane/Dust/Book vs. nWo stuff until Kane finally gets his ultimate revenge...Booker T could probably go after whomever is IC champ at that point (possibly Lesnar?) and would continue his climb up the card...

 

any thoughts? the Raw Roster is kinda depleted with barely any legitimate heels

 

Does Jericho really have what it takes to be a main eventer? Or are we all just blaming HHH for what may be Jericho's faults?

 

As much as some don't want to admit it.....Jericho does not have EVERYTHING it takes. He has charisma, he has good promo skills, but his wrestling skill needs to be worked on a little. Maybe it is because he was always against smaller guys in WCW and now he is with the bigger ones...but sometimes the stuff he does looks out of place.

 

The Lionsault is a great finisher to be used on a small guy...cause it looks like Jericho would crush them...but on Taker or HHH...nah. Let him use a more power-oriented move (Flashback, Breakdown) against the bigger guys or the Liontamer....but keep the Lionsault in reserve for good near fall contests with Kurt Angle...

 

I do think Kurt Angle has EVERYTHING it takes to lead the WW_ . He has the skill, charisma, style, etc to make you pay attention to him for long periods of time. He can mix up his moves from time to time and you actually look forward to seeing if he pulls out any good matwork.

 

Kurt can do power moves, submissions, and can fly through the air on occasion....hardly anyone else can do that....

 

This is why I like Kurt Angle and will support Chris Jericho....because they have what it takes to be great...

[Guest the pinjockey]

Actually pinjockey the last time I can remember HHH putting over Jericho was in the summer of 2000 right after the last man standing match. He said they had a hell of a match and would like to meet him again. They then had a pull apart. Also the way that match was booked made Jericho look like he was on HHH's level.

 

"Does Jericho really have what it takes to be a main eventer? Or are we all just blaming HHH for what may be Jericho's faults?"

 

This is an excellent question. Hopefully it'll get responses on the level of this entire thread.

The only thing I remember after Fully Loaded was the next nigh on Raw Jericho was in the ring HHH got on the big screen and esentially said you are close but you are not in my league yet.

 

As for not having what it takes to be a ME he has never had a chance to prove himself. Every opportunity has been cut off at the knees. I feel he has the elements to be a ME the look, promo skills, in ring ability (and compared to Hogan noone elses offense can be considered too weak fo the ME IMO). It is only about getting a full blown run with the ball opportunity that even though he was champion I don't think he had.

[Guest El Psycho Diablo]

Hogan is an exception. Not the rule.

 

His "weak offense" wouldn't fly for anyone else. I hate to say it, but he gets away with it because he's Hulk Hogan.

[Guest dreamer420]

good thread. now i want to state right away that hhh's game is no where near what it was during 2000-2001. he obviously doesn't work well as a face so i think bring steph back with him to be a heel would be perfect.

 

the thing i hate about this hhh backlash is how a lot of threads that have nothing to do with hhh in the first place all of a sudden turn into a whining fest about him. damn sheep.

 

if your favourite wrestler isn't getting pushed the way you like, don't take it so personally. try to chill out and enjoy seeing your favourite wrestler when you can.

 

finally:

don't blame the game, blame yourselves!

[Guest the pinjockey]

Hogan is an exception. Not the rule.

 

His "weak offense" wouldn't fly for anyone else. I hate to say it, but he gets away with it because he's Hulk Hogan.

I agree and see why Hogan is the exception. My point is though that Jericho's offense is nowhere near as weak looking as Hogan's two minutes to wind up for a punch so I don't think his offense would be perceived as being that weak. Hogan may be the exemption for weak looking offense flying, but his weak offense makes everyone else ok IMO.

[Guest M Nyland]

don't blame the game, blame yourselves!

i do blame myself. I have been a religious wrestling fan since Wresltemania 9...a great WM...IMHO...

 

I liked tuning into the shows to see the guys I liked...whether they were faces or heels or whatever...I wanted to see HBK, Razor, Diesel, the Headshrinkers, Doink (as a HEEL), Bret, Owen, Austin, Rock, Foley....even old old old school Taker (before the leather)...and enjoy them. Even if I didn't like who was on the screen I would sit and watch it because "Anything Can Happen In the WW_" and I was just hoping somebody would come kick the crap out of them just cause I didn't like them.

 

I still tune into RAW because the way the internet and such is now...you never know what might happen....NOBODY knew the Rock was going to walk out on RAW a few weeks ago.........when the forum heard about "REAL AMERICAN~!" we collectively cheered even though alot of us don't exactly like Hogan.

 

I marked for Hardy almost winning...I stood on my chair and jumped across my room and did a Swanton onto my bed....dang that hurt...but I felt like I was 12 again and watching Bret vs. Owen in a cage....

 

I love being a mark...I love being a sheep...Sometimes I like who the WW_ tells me too...sometimes I don't....

 

it's my choice to be a fan...it's my choice to be a net fan...HECK...it's my choice to post here and get flamed or praised for what I say...

 

Don't Hate.....ENJOY...

 

cause one day all that could be left...are tapes...

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Jericho could easily be a top level main eventer...as a face.

 

The fact of the matter is that Jericho as a face is one of the most over characters in the business.

 

I prefer his heel work...but it doesn't get him nearly as over (at least in the WWE).

 

Of course this probably isn't HHH's fault.

 

Although if I can be all conspiracy for a second...

 

After the way HHH "put over" Jericho in 2000...(I am now laughing at my own post)...

 

This was another example of HHH winning blowoffs as a heel...he did that alot.

 

Which was fine....because he was the class of the company...the top guy at the time...without question.

 

This is likely why Austin never won the blowoff with HHH when he returned. It would have hurt HHH's credabilty and made him look like a paper champion during the year that Austin was injured.

 

So that was just smart booking IMO.

 

Back to Jericho: When Austin was gone Rock was top face...no question.

 

The only other person who was a threat to take one of the top three spots (And I beleive there are three...whether the combo has been Austin, Rock and HHH...or Taker, Austin and Rock...or right now Rock, HHH and Taker) was the face Chris Jericho.

 

So far I don't think I've really streched anything out of the realm of complete beleivability.

 

Despite losing that feud and HHH pulling the "not in my league" bit...Jerichos heat could not be hurt.

 

So then HHH gets injured. Which in retrospect was far worse than just losing a top guy for a long time...we lost him seemingly forever.

 

Only the WWE doesn't seem to notice or care.

 

Now...Meltzer has reported that it was HHH who pushed for Jericho to be elavated while he was injured. So Rock goes out and does his job...hell even Austin jobbed twice for him...building Jericho up to a main event status.

 

The problem was that to win the title Jericho had to be a heel.

 

I can't blame HHH for that...since that is generally the way it is done with new guys in the recent past (Rock, HHH, Angle, Jericho). A late year run as a first time heel champion.

 

But a red flag goes up for me when HHH was the guy to push for Jericho to be built up...only to watch HHH himself come back and completely undo everything that Jericho had accomplished (and everything the Rock especially had done for him).

 

Oh...going into Mania...they were able to kill Jerichos heat this time. As a heel he was succeptable to it.

 

Then they go in HIAC...and HHH does it again (this time with NO justifyible reason).

 

Bad booking? Your damn right.

 

I COULD dismiss it completely as that too...the WWE wants a payoff from the injury angle takes care of the first one (BUT NOT the way HHH continually put down Jericho in interviews...shouldn't the HEEL DO THAT?)

 

Telling someone they aren't in your league and then proving it TWICE...is instant credability killer.

 

I have no justification for the second time.

 

Or HHH going on Conan pre-Mania and telling the world that JEricho doesn't quite have what it takes to be the top guy.

 

Doesn't it sound like this build is leading to a Jericho win?

 

Hell the opening of MAnia had a Jericho voice over saying that this was his "chance to show the world".

 

Jericho wins that match he is an instant top guy.

 

Jericho wins the rematch instead...hes on HHH's level.

 

CAn't have that.

 

Then I read from Meltzer that people think that Steph "saved MAnia" because Jericho wasn't good enough.

 

All of this while HHH is unover and gimping around at the speed of Bastion Booger.

 

Fine...I can see where people can beleive that given Jericho's inexperience and being the new guy in the Main Event of the biggest show in the world.

 

See...I have tried my damdest to be at peace with this.

 

Then the Meltz reports of HHH actively burying people in booking meetings comes up again.

 

The build up to HIAC was Vince vs. HHH...Jericho was just a jobber...there to do the same job again.

 

And the observer also says that people are afraid to say anything bad about the booking and writing that Steph is doing...because HHH will bury them.

 

Then I look in the ring and see him on top barely able to hang in the ring with HULK FUCKING HOGAN!

 

Now I was a HHHater from about January 22.

 

The day after the Rumble when RVD came out to a huge pop after a two minute appearance in the rumble pretty much ended with a HHH pedigree.

 

Later that show...HHH who won the damn rumble interrupted Jericho (to little pop...nowhere near RVD size) and told him he wasn't in his league again.

 

That weeks SD! was the beginning of the RVD pop-editting reports.

 

Hersay and unproven fact...it all is.

 

And it doesn't matter either.

 

I don't like HHH because he is nowhere near capable of performing the roll that he is given.

 

Should I blame Vince? Probably.

 

But knowing that if they ever tried to take that spot away from him...he has his bases covered to keep it...thats enough for me.

 

And don't say he won't...who wouldn't?

 

Only he isn't as good as Austin or the Rock...or hell...even Taker at this point.

 

And he has the big ace in the hole.

 

So there you have it.

 

Understand one more (And the original) HHHater.

[Guest Flyboy]

Well.... why do I hate HHH?

 

Maybe I'm like Shaved Bear... gotta hate someone?

 

But, really... I liked the guy tons in 2000. He was on his game... (get it?). But, then the guy comes back and his ring work is just pure shit. I was like, "Okay.. he'll get better." Or so I thought. He never improved at all... (maybe he will, but he hasn't yet). If the guy knew he wasn't ready, why come back so early? Just sort of made me mad in a way. Then, I started to read bps21's posts on 'theories', and they did really make sense. (Maybe they're NOT true, but still).. then, he threw RVD out the ring at RR02. That was it. Fuck you, Hunter. Hate, hate, hate. (I had already hated the guy for his ring work and the 'theories', but when you throw out one of my favorite wrestlers out of the RR in less than 5 minutes then it's 'fuck you' mode).

 

So, that's basically it I guess... that's how I became a HHHater. From lackluster ringwork, 'theories' (true? false? hmm..), INTENSE~! promos, markish (the RR thing), and basically screwing his way to the top.

[Guest M Nyland]

they might be HHHate-filled...but they are still very coherent posts...

 

Happy Coherent Post Day....let's hope it never ends...

 

 

and another reason I can say I don't like Triple H.......because he put Flair vs. Steamboat on his DVD.........for what reason? HHH isn't in the league to tie Flair's shoes yet....

 

That would have been great for a Flair DVD or even a Chris Benoit DVD....and lets face it...Flair needs his own DVD...

[Guest RobJohnstone]

Why do I like HHH? Well for one thing you have to respect anyone who comes back from an injury early, it just takes balls. Sure he is suffering now from it but ask yourself this question COULD YOU DO IT? I am a little out of it today from work, i'll get "into" this forum later, good job DangerousA on a non fighting folder on a really good topic.

 

--Rob

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I don't want to dance around the issue, but suffice to say that I used to be inspired by HHH every time he worked a match that seemed like an obvious tribute to Flair, and now, I'm not, because he doesn't do that stuff anymore. The selling is there at times, but not enough to matter, and the rest of his act just bores me. I don't like him as a face. I think he had the potential to be the coolest babyface ever and lost it because of the selfish need to be in a comfy heel spot and he never recovered. His ring work almost depresses, to be honest. What was once so great is now almost totally lost. Sad.

 

But, I'm no HHHater. It's all shenanigans to me. HHHaters have their own haters, soon those haters have their own haters, AWO is actually becoming so annoying I can barely stand to visit at times. Anglesault has clones coming out of his ass and I want to stab something. It's annoying. Hating a guy because he's a) borring B) shitty in the ring and c) overpushed is good fun, but the constant bitching like "Angle feuds with Maven while HHH squashes Jericho in two seconds" just drives me nutts, and the jokes are putrid. Stop with them, for the love of God.

 

And that's pretty much it.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Flair/Steamboat is on HHH's DVD because it's his favorite match.

[Guest M Nyland]

<sarcasm>couldn't he have picked a better one</sarcasm>

 

he picked a great match then....the greatest (if you believe SK)

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

Pointless post, but what the hell...

 

Princess Mononoke pic in sig = greatness

 

I love that movie.

[Guest AM The Kid]

Well, lets see...

Back when Hunter Hearst Helmsley made his snob debut I loved him. The snob, the guy everyone hates. His mic. skills were fabulous, he was good in the ring and had "it".

 

The original Degeneration-X, amazing...one of the best things that ever happened in the WWF. He deflected from that pompous, sly, snob into and arrogant, in your face badass. "S*ck the cook" was one of the best segments of the year and he showed his true promo talent with Shawn Micheals, Chyna and Rude. His wrestling skills improved more and he got a much-needed push.

 

DX #2, what can I say...Hunter was still very talented, but needed to break away from the other losers in the group. Don't get me wrong, I loved DX but only because of Triple H, Chyna and Billy Gunn. I hated...and I mean HATED Road Dogg and X-Pac and felt they were holding back the whole production.

 

Then Triple H partially broke away,hooked up with Steph and was suddenly my very favorite wrestler. Rightfully so...he had it all, plus the World Title. Throughout Triple H's heel years, he was my favorite wrestler and could do no wrong. Then he pulled his quad...

 

When Triple H came back on January 7th, I was marking out like crazy but by the time the Royal Rumble was winding down with Mr.Perfect, Kurt Angle, Steve Austin and Rob Van Dam left with Triple H...I had a sudden change of heart. I was rooting for anyone but Triple H...his push was too hard and sudden from his comback and I wanted something new.

 

Around that time all the dirtsheets were saying how Hunter was holding down all this talent...my new favorite guys. When Triple H left in 2001 there was a void that was quickly filled with other wrestlers, better technicians and high flyers. When Triple H came back his skills visibly decreased as well as his newly-aquainted promo skills and people like Kurt Angle, Rob Van Dam, Lance Storm and Chris Jericho were soaring both in the ring and cutting a promo. These were the same people Triple H is now holding down, a spot is left open from the Austin departure, yet he won't let any new guys take the spot and put them over. I wish he'd cut back his muscle mass, turn heel(while improving his mic. skills), work harder in the ring and give someone the chance to shine.

 

Thats why I hate Triple H.

[Guest RobJohnstone]

Well, lets see...

Back when Hunter Hearst Helmsley made his snob debut I loved him. The snob, the guy everyone hates. His mic. skills were fabulous, he was good in the ring and had "it".

 

The original Degeneration-X, amazing...one of the best things that ever happened in the WWF. He deflected from that pompous, sly, snob into and arrogant, in your face badass. "S*ck the cook" was one of the best segments of the year and he showed his true promo talent with Shawn Micheals, Chyna and Rude. His wrestling skills improved more and he got a much-needed push.

 

DX #2, what can I say...Hunter was still very talented, but needed to break away from the other losers in the group. Don't get me wrong, I loved DX but only because of Triple H, Chyna and Billy Gunn. I hated...and I mean HATED Road Dogg and X-Pac and felt they were holding back the whole production.

 

Then Triple H partially broke away,hooked up with Steph and was suddenly my very favorite wrestler. Rightfully so...he had it all, plus the World Title. Throughout Triple H's heel years, he was my favorite wrestler and could do no wrong. Then he pulled his quad...

 

When Triple H came back on January 7th, I was marking out like crazy but by the time the Royal Rumble was winding down with Mr.Perfect, Kurt Angle, Steve Austin and Rob Van Dam left with Triple H...I had a sudden change of heart. I was rooting for anyone but Triple H...his push was too hard and sudden from his comback and I wanted something new.

 

Around that time all the dirtsheets were saying how Hunter was holding down all this talent...my new favorite guys. When Triple H left in 2001 there was a void that was quickly filled with other wrestlers, better technicians and high flyers. When Triple H came back his skills visibly decreased as well as his newly-aquainted promo skills and people like Kurt Angle, Rob Van Dam, Lance Storm and Chris Jericho were soaring both in the ring and cutting a promo. These were the same people Triple H is now holding down, a spot is left open from the Austin departure, yet he won't let any new guys take the spot and put them over. I wish he'd cut back his muscle mass, turn heel(while improving his mic. skills), work harder in the ring and give someone the chance to shine.

 

Thats why I hate Triple H.

Basically, your assing him out for getting injured, penalizing him for working to hard to make the fan happy. Geez, you are a rough fan.

 

--Rob

[Guest dreamer420]

i really hate to say this but hopefully the wwe with just fire chris jericho so the bitching will stop.

[Guest AM The Kid]

Basically, your assing him out for getting injured, penalizing him for working to hard to make the fan happy. Geez, you are a rough fan.

 

--Rob

No, what I'm saying is that ever since he came back he doesn't try anymore. I understand the injury, and I'm proud he had the courage to come back from it. He just needs to seriously think about what he is doing backstage and on screen. I'm sure if he started actually giving 100% out there and give other guys a fair chance he'd be on my good lists again.

[Guest RobJohnstone]

the other side of the coin would be he is acually trying 100% but the injury is nagging him, and yes he limps every now and then. Dude, he is busting his ass in there, and he gets shitted on, give him the benefit of the doubt. Who just decides to be lazy? We have seen him have all these interviews about respecting the business, why would he just all of the sudden go against that?

 

--Rob

[Guest Shaved Bear]

i simply hate HHH for the reason caboose said, he can give the rub, but he doesnt

[Guest Flyboy]

*shrugs*

 

Look at Benoit... the guy comes back, and looks like he had no ringrust at all. HHH comes back... and performs like shit. It's just a matter of how you look at it.