Who is truly capable of ***** matches in WWE?

[Guest Downhome]

There is no doubt that in WWE, there are plenty of talented guys lurking around. From Benoit to Angle to Eddy to Flair to so many more if you ask me. My question, is out of their entire roster, who do you feel is capable of pulling out a ***** match? We all know that the guys I listed above are capable of it, yes even Flair if he had a solid opponent, but who else could? Feel free to name those who have proven that they could, and those who have yet to have a ***** match. One more thing...

 

I say screw those people who say we have no right to rate a match. I don't know who in the hell those type of people are, but if I see a good match, then by God I'm going to say it was damn good, and if I see a sh*t fest, then same thing goes, I'm going to call it as I see it. I may not be IN the sport, but I think I'm just as able to say what comes off as a good match or not. Sorry, it just gets under my skin when they say I am not worthy to rate a match. I mean, after all...

 

...all the * ratings are anyhow are our personal opinions. No one actually has a "solid true scale", it's all personal opinion in the end.

 

Sincerely,

...Downhome...

[Guest LJSexay]

I think we have several people that are very capable. I don't think I have to name some of the obvious ones, but I'll think of some.

 

Val Venis, Jericho, Angle, Benoit, Edge, Eddy, Booker, RVD, Austin, Rock, and if handled correctly,. John Cena, Randy Orton, and Hurricane Helms all have that potential.

 

Than again, so do many others on the roster.

[Guest AM The Kid]

I really like your topics.

 

 

Anyways, there are only a few wrestlers in the WWE that can currenly have ***** matches.

-Angle

-Benoit

-Storm

-Eddie

-RVD

-Cena

-Jericho

[Guest Downhome]

Yes, join me, realize the untapped potential of the man called Cena, bwahahahahahaha!

[Guest Vitamin X]

Jericho, Angle, Benoit, Eddy, RVD, Booker T, Rock, Billy Kidman, Rhyno (if he comes back with some more of that master psychology), Jeff Hardy (but not Matt, oh no definitely not Matt good sweet Jesus no), Lance Storm, Christian, and Austin if he was still around could all pull out **** or better matches.

 

I think the SK rating system is * for bad, ** is good as in perfectly acceptable, *** is pretty damn good but had some thigns that didn't work, **** is absolutely excellent, ntohing wrong with it, and ***** is just an instant classic, where a match is so good it transcends just beign the match of the year. In that case, I don't want to say people are capable of pulling out a ***** match, because that's the highest rating it can go and deserves to be treated with some dignity and respect.

[Guest Downhome]

I think the SK rating system is * for bad, ** is good as in perfectly acceptable, *** is pretty damn good but had some thigns that didn't work, **** is absolutely excellent, ntohing wrong with it, and ***** is just an instant classic, where a match is so good it transcends just beign the match of the year. In that case, I don't want to say people are capable of pulling out a ***** match, because that's the highest rating it can go and deserves to be treated with some dignity and respect.

Blah, call me crazy but I do not agree with his system whast so ever. If you ask me, no match is truly "perfect". If I sit down and watch a match, I feel that I can find at least one thing to take it down from "perfect", no matter what the match. So this takes me to this point...

 

...I feel the * system should be more so about personal choice, not going by someone else. To some, Hogan/Rocky could be considered ***** going on emotion alone, and in terms of Mr. SK, then it WAS a ***** because it was indeed an "instant classic". Anyhow, my point is that the * system should be based just on your own personal decision and thoughts, that's all.

[Guest Ravenbomb]

Getting back on topic:

Benoit

Lance Storm

Raven (Hey, it's already been said that it's all just opinion. It'd have to be a pretty damn bad match for me to give it less than ***3/4 if Raven's in it.)

Eddie Guerrero

RVD

Rey Mysterio Jr.

[Guest y2jailbait]

Most within the WWE could pull out ***** star matches, if the matches were carried toward there particular style and tastes. I mean i love hardcore matches, and i also love 10 man tags. Now not most will like these matches, but i do. A perfect hardcore match to me will be a suck fest for most. Now many here love men like Angle, Guerrero, Benoit and Jericho and also they would like to see them battle it out in a technical clinic. Me, i would like that as well, but if this were to happen, i regrettably wouldnt give the match a ***** star rating, it wouldnt appeal to my tastes. Thats why i say a perfect match is almost incapable, due to the wide range of viewers. Also, the whole rating matches thing is a bit overused, if its good, its good, if its not, its not.

[Guest Choken One]

I really don't agree with the principle of a * rating system (although I still use it as a way to express to my fellow smarks my viewpoint on that particular point).

 

Who is capable of *****? Shit, one man's UT/HHH is another man's Flair/Steamboat. The closest American match that ever recieves ***** across the board are the Flair/Steamboat '89 series, HBK-Ramon WMX and Hart-Hart Wmx.

[Guest M Nyland]

It seems that from now on...every time a talent comes up from the "minors" and is embraced within this forum as JR embraces a hoss....that it should be known as having a "Cena Orgasm"

 

 

or maybe i'm just being stupid...

[Guest thebigjig]

What about Flair? Am I the only one that thinks he is capable of having another great ***** match IF placed with the right person and of course the right amount of ring time? I could see a Flair/Angle match achieving that

[Guest RobJohnstone]

if you want to pick a combo of 2 guys in the wwf with the best chance of pulling a 5 star than 2 other people I would go with eddie vs benoit. I can' really see RVD getting any five stars soon, considering I haven;t seen a **** match from him that wasn't gimmicked.

 

--Rob

[Guest Downhome]

What about Flair? Am I the only one that thinks he is capable of having another great ***** match IF placed with the right person and of course the right amount of ring time? I could see a Flair/Angle match achieving that

*ahem*

 

Notice in my starting thread that I mentioned Flair? Trust me, you aren't the only one who can obviously tell that The Nature Boy can still go in that ring!

[Guest RobJohnstone]

What about Flair? Am I the only one that thinks he is capable of having another great ***** match IF placed with the right person and of course the right amount of ring time? I could see a Flair/Angle match achieving that

*ahem*

 

Notice in my starting thread that I mentioned Flair? Trust me, you aren't the only one who can obviously tell that The Nature Boy can still go in that ring!

I agree on the flair thing, but I don;t think angle has the psychology yet to do it, you never know, smetimes they pop up from now where, soemtimes you expect it, and it is shit. Honestly, for another flair classic it would have to be against either a huge dominating heel for sotry/match flow, or an old school mat wrestler like malenko.

 

--Rob

[Guest Choken One]

As for Ric Flair? He hasn't gotten there since 1994 (Steamboat) and although he's had a share of Good-great matches, none have reached the Smarks ***** Status.

 

His match with Eddy would have touched ***** if Ric Flair was in his Prime.

 

If he can barely hit *** with Eddy, Only Beniot or A very Motivated Steve Austin could get him there.

[Guest Trivia247]

Most within the WWE could pull out ***** star matches, if the matches were carried toward there particular style and tastes. I mean i love hardcore matches, and i also love 10 man tags. Now not most will like these matches, but i do. A perfect hardcore match to me will be a suck fest for most. Now many here love men like Angle, Guerrero, Benoit and Jericho and also they would like to see them battle it out in a technical clinic. Me, i would like that as well, but if this were to happen, i regrettably wouldnt give the match a ***** star rating, it wouldnt appeal to my tastes. Thats why i say a perfect match is almost incapable, due to the wide range of viewers. Also, the whole rating matches thing is a bit overused, if its good, its good, if its not, its not.

 

I agree with that on the basis that its not just the wrestler that can pull a ***** rating, its how they are booked what leeway in terms of moves and time AND how their angle or feud developes. People would anticipate and appreciate a Good match more if there is a backstory and history, you just slap wrestlers together without a story then it kinda lacks. Thats why its just not plain skill for American fans, they need a reason as to why the wrestlers are beating the crap out of each other.

You match wrestler up to their particular style

You can put the Hurricane next to a Haku and expect a ***** match out of it. (Before those Pad HAKU negativity comes out) lol Haku vs Bossman, Or Haku vs Rikishi you put a back story a spin on it, Haku winning a Freak Hardcore title championship then maybe you can get a decent story that translates into a Decent match.

[Guest dreamer420]

here's my list:

 

kurt angle

chris jericho

edge

ric flair

rob van dam

booker t

eddy guerrero

billy kidman

the hurricane

[Guest Downhome]

You match wrestler up to their particular style

You can put the Hurricane next to a Haku and expect a ***** match out of it. (Before those Pad HAKU negativity comes out) lol Haku vs Bossman, Or Haku vs Rikishi you put a back story a spin on it, Haku winning a Freak Hardcore title championship then maybe you can get a decent story that translates into a Decent match.

I Haku or Bossman is ever in a ***** match, I will eat my own feces and like it.

[Guest thebigjig]

What about Flair? Am I the only one that thinks he is capable of having another great ***** match IF placed with the right person and of course the right amount of ring time? I could see a Flair/Angle match achieving that

*ahem*

 

Notice in my starting thread that I mentioned Flair? Trust me, you aren't the only one who can obviously tell that The Nature Boy can still go in that ring!

I know that you mentioned him I just noticed that no one else had really elaborated or touched on him, so I was bringing it up as a sort of afterthought. Angle may not have much of the psychology down but I still think that Flair could carry that workload on his back if it came down to it. I know Flair is capable of at least a **** match, and I hope that in this last run he pulls out a ***** at least one more time

[Guest Trivia247]

I said Decent story for Decent match perhaps Not ***** Im not completely Insane

 

HOWEVER..

 

You Snatch the Haku of 1987 and throw him against wrestlers of today and I bet you'll get a *** match at least from him.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

My ratings for reference:

* = Watchable.

** = Entertaining but unmemorable.

*** = Very good, makes me want to see more of both workers.

**** = Truly great, worth the cost of a PPV.

***** = Instant classic that needs to be owned on video tape.

 

There are only a handful of guys under contract with the WWE at the moment who have had a ***** match (that I've seen). That list would be:

 

1. Ric Flair. Way past his prime, obviously. Could never have one now.

2. Chris Benoit. Surely still capable of it. Even if he is not in 100% ring-shape his veteran knowhow and experiance could be used to hold together a match and bring it to *****.

3. Eddie Guerrero. Though in the late ninties he was probably the best worker in the world, given his matches with Rob Van Dam I don't think he could have another "perfect" match. Maybe with another great wrestler he could, though.

4. Shawn Michaels. He's not a wrestler at all anymore so I'm not even going to go into him.

5. Steve Austin. Gone for awhile. Anyway he's still to tore up to have another great match. If only he wasn't broken down.

6. The Rock. Not around enough to keep the ring-rust off, I don't think he'll ever have another.

 

Now lets go to those who haven't but could.

 

1. Chris Jericho. I'm suprised he hasn't had one yet. He's a fucking ***** match waiting to happen. He almost hit it with the Rock but that was just not to be. I say turn him face and put him in a feud with Angle so he can reign Angle in.

2. Kurt Angle. Since he's so new he hasn't really learned how to tell a story yet in the ring and often his matches are completely devoid of direction. Benoit, Booker T, Jericho and Guerrero are all capable of bringing him to ***** territory.

3. Booker T. Feud him with any of the aformentioned guys who could do it and he could be carried to a ***** affair. I think his best odds are with Angle because it would be a mutual carry and those tend to hit the higher margins that one man just plain leading the other inferior wrestler.

4. Val Venis. He's just waiting to be carried, my friends. It's only a matter of time until they put him in a high profile feud and he shows everyone that he is one of the best workers anywhere right now.

 

So it's:

Chris Benoit

Eddie Guerero

Chris Jericho

Kurt Angle

Booker T

Val Venis.

 

Keep in mind ***** matches are flukes. Even the two greatest competitors in the world could come together and not hit that level. And it's also been shown (Michales/Ramon) that even the most average wrestler can come out one day and preform at such a high level that they could be considered among the greats. But that's what I love about the WWE right now. There is so much talent. Literally, at any time, we could see the next classic match.

[Guest godthedog]

honestly, i don't know if ANYBODY could put on a 5-star match, but my system differs from most. i've only seen 4 matches in my life that i wouldn't hesitate to give 5 stars to: the bret/owen cage match, the bret/austin submission match, the first ladder match & hansen/kobashi. these things are extremely rare, & even most great wrestlers can go their entire careers without having one.

 

that said, i think the guys who may be able to pull off the next michaels/foley-level mind-blowing classic would be:

 

angle: he's noticeably taking more charge of his matches, using new ideas & is still improving. if he keeps improving in the next year or 2, if the wwF lets him use more than 5 offensive moves & if the stars are aligned right, he could probably top summerslam '01.

 

benoit: duh.

 

kanyon and helms: i think there's 2 conditions under which these guys could have a 5-star match--a)they keep improving with putting a match together (cause both of them have ENORMOUS potential), b)they face each other. the innovator of offense and the sensation of innovation, if they put their heads together and made the whole thing make sense, could pull off some absolutely stellar shit that nobody's ever seen before. if they sat down & said "let's make one for the ages", provided they were both at their peaks, they could have a match unlike any in the wwF.

 

jericho: i don't see him as a 5-star match guy, honestly. to me, he seems like the chris webber of wrestling: great competitor and can make it with the big boys, but seems to fall just short of achieving true greatness & is satisfied with making excuses instead of just bringing it. i don't think jericho could ever carry anyone to a 5-star match. however, chris benoit always seems to bring out the best in him, and their matches together always got better. if, in the next couple years, he fought benoit & it clicked with both of them, he could end up with an all-time classic to his credit.

[Guest Brian]

Of the current guys, I can only see two at the moment, Benoit (depending on how he performs post-injury) and Eddie. Jericho and Angle both could be there in a year or two. Based on his EMLL and All Japan work, Venis could be near that point. Rod Van Dam I could see putting up his end of a great performance. Austin coming back, and motivated, maybe. Flair is too old. Mysterio definately could. I don't know about the other guys; Helms, Tajiri if pushed, HHH if in acceptable condition, alot of intangibles who could contribute but probably not be driving factors like Benoit, Guerrero, and Austin.

 

The maindeal is someone has to push the limits so these guys can break out of the style and really do something.

[Guest The Man in Blak]

I'd say that Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, and Kurt Angle are about the only guys capable of carrying a five-star match.

 

However, I definitely think Jericho, Rock, Tajiri, Cena, Jeff Hardy, and RVD are quite "carryable" and could probably pull off a classic with any of the above.

 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned though - with good matches, there's also the "road agent" factor - a lot of five snowflake matches may have been well-crafted by a Johnny Ace or a Pat Patterson (Hogan/Warrior anyone?) so that's one additional variable to consider when you're browsing through all of those ***** matches and looking for contenders.

[Guest Black Tiger]

I beleive that a match is ***** when there is nothing wrong at all, nothing could be changed and if anything was

Eddie, Benoit, and Angle could do one with any given opponent. The only other guys who I think could pull out a ***** match would be Edge, Kidman, Tajiri, RVD, and Kanyon and that would be only if they had the right opponent.

 

What I find amazing is that Jericho was bitching about his KOR match being an MOTYC when it was nowhere close, but Eddie vs RVD ladder match which everyone raved as a MOTYC, Eddie himself thought it sucked and couldn't beleive the reaction to it.

[Guest Anglesault]

If Edge couldn't have a ***** match with Angle or Storm, who is "The right opponent?"

[Guest dreamer420]

i thought rvd and jericho was slow, sloppy, and spotty when i watched it. i'll have to see it again but i thought both guys were having an off night during the match.

[Guest RobJohnstone]

If Edge couldn't have a ***** match with Angle or Storm, who is "The right opponent?"

you imply that angle and storm are gods gift to wrestling, and if you can;t have a ***** with them, than you can;t with anyone. Can you name ***** matches either of those 2 were in? I mean angle worked programs with austin and the rock and didn;t do it ( I am not a rock fan but I give him props, he has GOOD matched, and I have to give the guy his due). Storm got to go with the best juniors in the world in 97 and couldn;t do it. Can I have some information as to why they should be the 2 guys "in charge of ***** matches?

 

--Rob

[Guest The Man in Blak]

You raise some good points about Angle and Storm, but here's my defense.

 

Though we can only speculate about who calls what spots during a particular match, the main things we know about Angle is that he has great execution (moves look crisp consistently) and he has great in-ring charisma.

 

In a lot of those five-star matches, you're seeing a lot of classic in-ring charisma between competitors. Whether it's selling a ladder hit like you've been shot or faking a leg injury to play off hitting the opponent with a chair, there are lots of little nuances to these great matches...and I think Angle's more than capable of adding such personal touches on the overall scheme of a match.

 

With that and some great ring-work, Angle is a guy that has the tools to tell a real story in a match...and that's why I picked him.

 

Storm, on the other hand, only has half of the equation. Sure, he works in some psychology and has some great ringwork, but he doesn't really seem to work the crowd while he's in the ring. There's no overall storyline - just trading of moves, back and forth...and that's why I didn't pick him.

[Guest EricMM]

I think that it's not that they CAN'T have five star matches, it's that they HAVEN'T. As has been previously stated, people can have five star matche against someone, face them again, and not have the same quality match.

 

I think five star matches happen when they happen. I think they're more likely on PPVs because of the time. I think they can be more likely with a good gimmick (cage, ladder, submission) because it adds something unusual. I think they're more likely when the book has given us all a reason to pay fifty dollars to see THAT match alone, regardless of how it actually goes, we want to SEE it.

 

That being said, I think a LOT of workers could have a five star match in the proper environment. Maybe it has to be a tag match for some people. But if thats the case that's the case. I could see Angle, Benoit, Jericho, Tajiri, Helms, Noble, Shane McMahon, Kidman, Rock, Booker, Booker w/ Dust, possibly Buh Buh Ray Dudley or Tommy Dreamer, because I mark for ECW having matches I consider five star. I don't think I would feel the same for Val Venis or The Prototype because I've never really cared about the wrestlers. I've probably forgotten a few, but it's really not that important.

 

I'd like to think that given the right time and place, any wrestler with reasonable skills and a decent plot will put on a five star on the perfect night. The night where no spots are blown, and two guys mesh perfectly. most nights it doesn't happen. A Benoit/Hart/Guerrero three man iron man match during each respective persons PRIME wouldn't necessarily be 5 star, because MAYBE it wouldn't mesh. But maybe at the next PPV we will see a midcard match become something that we all want to have on our tapes forever. You never know.

 

-Eric

(Who would like to see that iron man match Hey could WCW have done it?)