arguments for/against capitalism

[Guest godthedog]

this socialism/capitalism seems to spill into half the threads on this board, so i thought we should try to contain it. so, if a debate dissolves into which system is better, take it here.

[Guest EricMM]

capitalism works on a state scale

 

socialism has never worked on a state scale

 

theres not really much arguement here IMO.

 

If anyone here thinks capitalism is perfect, of course they're mistaken, but what is?

 

Capitalism is essentially IMO the use of greed to regulate the economy

 

Socialism is essentially the use of um goodwill? sorta patriotism? so that everyone works as hard as they can for what they need.

 

I think that in a perfect word socialism is fairer because if everyone got what they needed noone would suffer and noone would get what they didn' t need. And we would all get PCs and premium cable and all the food we want and great apartments. Thats a perfect world. It doesn't yet exist. And some people are not willing to work as hard as others for the same wage. In capitalism there are personal incentives to work hard. You profit. In socialism there is no direct corrolation. Thus IT DoESN"T WORK.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Pretty silly idea. Some conversations naturally evolve into a capitalism/socialism debate. Moving just that aspect into a different thread, without context or continuity, would be completely unworkable.

[Guest godthedog]

Pretty silly idea. Some conversations naturally evolve into a capitalism/socialism debate. Moving just that aspect into a different thread, without context or continuity, would be completely unworkable.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Sorry. <g> The thread's still good for a separate debate if anyone's really willing to defend socialism per se.

[Guest NoCalMike]

I think capitalism is a great ideal. The problem is it doesn't work out in life as it was intended in the beginning. Same can be said for ANY and EVERY current system. The perfect system has not happened yet. Of course if they invented Mass Replicators like in Star Trek, then I guess life would be better. Hehehehe......

[Guest EricMM]

I'm very willing to defend the IDEA of socialism... per se...

 

IN THEORY its a better, nicer, fairer system than capitalism. It would ensure that everyone has what they need, which is more than today's economy can do.

 

There! I am teh Marxist Socialist man! Some Guy come and get me!!!

[Guest MrRant]

Socialism won't work based on the simple fact that deep down people like having things that bigger, better or shinier than someone elses.

[Guest TJH]

Socialism does not work because there is no PROFIT MOTIVE!

What is the point of ever doing any work if you know you will get the same as everyone else?

With capitalism people have a reason to work, such as getting a new car etc.

As for socialism being fairer, how is it fair not to reward people for working hard, and rewarding people for not doing anything?

[Guest EricMM]

enough brain washing will remove any desires for the shiny things tho.

 

Well...

 

not that it's a good idea, but a different value system could make socialism work.

 

like if everyone was valued by how much work they did

 

Has anyone read the book Moscow 2042? it's about a futuristic socialist society(In russia), where they had no food because they had no rain because they had to keep dispursing the clouds becaues america was constantly playing movies off their clouds showing the values of capitalist life. Anyways the russians had a way to turn feces into food, so people gave in their waste and took (very nasty) food at the same time. So the people who society valued were people who could minimize their intake and maximize their output. There was a whole theme to find someone who could output more than they could intake.

 

I think the writer was saying how socialists sometimes have to eat shit and like it because their system was based on giving not taking.

 

It wasn't very pro socialist

 

I'm really not defending it well at all.

[Guest MrRant]

Why should I change my values? There is no point in having values if you they are forced upon you. Sounds to me like you want your values imposed on everyone else.

[Guest EricMM]

What? Um, WHAT? I am in no way trying to change anyone elses values. I am talking rhetorically. I am mentioning a book I read during the 12th grade. Thats it. I am not a socialist. I am not a socialist. I am not a socialist.

 

I just wanted to help keep the thread going so I played devils advocate when Marney pointed out that noone was likely to point out the few valid points of Socialism. You know, I do think it's a nice dream. But I think capitalism can be nice too, because you get rewarded for hard work. Both systems have flaws. I just felt that in this environment I would have to be the one to support socialism to keep the thread moving. I would never push socialism because it doesn't work!

[Guest MrRant]

Then I misread what you meant by "a different value system may work"

 

My apologies.

[Guest LooseCannon]

I'm very willing to defend the IDEA of socialism... per se...

 

IN THEORY its a better, nicer, fairer system than capitalism. It would ensure that everyone has what they need, which is more than today's economy can do.

 

There! I am teh Marxist Socialist man! Some Guy come and get me!!!

Really, in today's economy in America, it's quite possible to give everyone everything they need, through the social welfare system. If you define necessity as food, clothing, and shelter.

 

We could probably provide universal health care and quality educational opportunities for all within the framework of capitalism as well, without too many adverse consequences.

 

So I don't see the claim that socialism would ensure that everyone has everything they need as a benefit in its favor. Nor do I see the claim that such a goal exceeds the capabilities of today's economy as accurate.

 

If everyone in the United States right now does not at least have access to everything they need, then it's because of normative political choices that we've made rather than due to the differences between socialism and capitalism.

[Guest Some Guy]

Shit I was going to post a paper I wrote last year but it's saved on my old PC.

 

The utpian idea of Socialism/Marxism is very Christian. With charity being the main focus. The problem is that people just aren't naturally that generous. So the state has to force generousity upon it's citezens. Stealing people's money and giving to others promotes massive problems. First off you haev punished those who actually contribute to the betterment of society and sencond you promote those who don't. The sytem is backwards. It punishes success and rewards failure and sloth. As with all utopian ideas it doesn't work for very long. France, Germany, Sweeden, and others are going to be in for a rude awakening in teh next 20 years. When the EU and their system of gov't topples their economy.

 

While Marxism works on the priniciple of human charity (forced or not) Capitalism works on the basis of human greed. Greed is a stronger principle than cahrity for almost everyone. Capitalism is based on the exploitation of others. A lawyer exploits a carpenter, a carpenter exploits a business, a business exploits it's employees, the employees exploit stores, and so on. By exploition I don't mean mistreatment, I mean both sides use the other for their own gain.

Where you run into problems is when someone has become too greedy and intentionally inhibits other's ability to succeed. That can be regualted and has been. The fact that people break the law is not exclusive to Capitalist socitey.

 

If I can get my old paper I'll post it. It's a lot better than what I just wrote. Plus I'm too lazy to go on and on now when I've already gotten an A for doing so last year.

[Guest EricMM]

very very true.

 

But would someone like to defend the fact that under capitalism there have to be people who live badly so others can live well. Sometimes it seems like America is a zero gain society

[Guest TJH]

"But would someone like to defend the fact that under capitalism there have to be people who live badly so others can live well. Sometimes it seems like America is a zero gain society"

 

Under capitalism everyone has the opportunity to do well. People live badly, but it isn't anyone else's fault. If people work hard they will make a good living. It is a system which gives people what they deserve.

[Guest EricMM]

people working in sweat shops will never get ahead

[Guest MrRant]

people working in sweat shops will never get ahead

Quit and go to work at McDonalds... problem solved.

[Guest LooseCannon]

people working in sweat shops will never get ahead

I don't really like playing this card, but the standard of living for those people slaving away in sweatshops, beats the shit out of the standard of living of your typical guy 75 years ago.

 

It seems to me that capitalism tends to improve everyone's standard of living. Yes there will always be poor people, because under capitalism some people will always have more than others. But if progress continues as it has, and say fifty years from now, poor people have air conditioning and dvd players, I'll be hard pressed to feel badly about how "poorly" they're living.

[Guest NoCalMike]

I worked in a warehouse for a major fortune 500 company, and the consensus among the workers there was that we were all working our asses off, so that the 25 or so members in the CEO branch could rack in seven figures. Whenever we came together as a group(about 80 in our department)to ask for a raise, all we heard from supervisors, is that "the budget is tight, and we are not making enough profits right now" yet the very next day on the news it was reported that the ceo gave himself a 24% raise. WTF........The gap between the lower and upperclass is widening. I will admit that there are many out there that do not get ahead due to laziness and stupidity, but to say you are not getting ahead because you are not "working hard" is pure bullshit. I know we as crew were busting out asses to make sure product was in the stores every day in order for consumers to buy, and all that hardwork equalled ZERO job security. They used people as pieces of meat and the minute they raised productivity goals to high for someone to make, they were fired, instantly. No questions asked. I know, not all companies are like this, but this was a major one and I am sure many others in the fortune 500 are run about the same. It is the exploitation of the american worker, and it is a very real thing.

[Guest LooseCannon]

That's an all too common story from what I hear. I feel the problem is a weakening in the labor movement over the past 2 or 3 decades, which has allowed upper management to keep more and more and kick down less and less to the laborers.

 

I know a lot of people like to knock unions for whatever political reason. But I feel that reasoning comes from a failure to understand that capitalism is fueled by self-interest. Management is going to try to get as much as they can out of labor for as little as possible. That's human nature. I don't understand why people bitch when labor turns around and looks out for themselves. Why should self-sacrificining altruism be expected of unions, when no one expects the same from management?

[Guest Vern Gagne]

My biggest problem with socialism is it puts way to much power into the hands of the gov't.

 

That's all I've got for tonight.

[Guest DARRYLXWF]

Good books to read on this topic:

'On Liberty' by John Stuart Mill

'The Republic' by Plato

'The Prince' by Niccolo Machiavelli (sp?)

'The Wealth of the Nations' by Adam Smith

'Politics and Poetics' Aristotle

'Utopia' by Thomas More

 

I highly suggest that everyone should read 'The Wealth of the Nations' if studying economics, the rest is always good to read, and will help you get an idea of what exactly is being talked about. In the end however, Socialism/Communism etc, is generally...well...WRONG

[Guest godthedog]

Good books to read on this topic:

'On Liberty' by John Stuart Mill

'The Republic' by Plato

'The Prince' by Niccolo Machiavelli (sp?)

'The Wealth of the Nations' by Adam Smith

'Politics and Poetics' Aristotle

'Utopia' by Thomas More

 

I highly suggest that everyone should read 'The Wealth of the Nations' if studying economics, the rest is always good to read, and will help you get an idea of what exactly is being talked about. In the end however, Socialism/Communism etc, is generally...well...WRONG

dude, if you're going to recommend a list of books on the capitalism/socialism topic, at least have the decency to put the communist manifesto on the list.

[Guest Some Guy]

NoCalMike you didn't mention how much you were being paid and what exactly you did in the warehouse. So what was it? You won;t get sympathy from me unless I know what you did and how much you were paid.

 

To the person who said that teh wealth gap is widening, you failed to mention that teh minimun wage and basic quality of life is improving for mostly everybody, despite teh economy. Just because the rich are getting richer, doesn't mean that the poor are getting poorer. They are actually getting richer by and large. It's just that the rich are getting even richer than them. Once you attain money it's a lot easier to make more of it.

 

To the person who mantioned sweatshops. How many sweatshops are there in America? It seems to me that the vast majority of truly exploited labor takes place in non-capitalist countries (China, The Middle East, India, etc..).

 

The labor Unions are weakening because they became far too strong. The original point was to get fair treatment for everybody (good working conditions, wages, etc..), it had gotten to the point that the unions were really hurting the businesses and in some cases putting their employers out of business. It still goes on today. The Steel Workers union put the steel industry out of business and now the taxpayers have to pay their over inflated salariesthrough governmental subsidy. I don't care how hard they work, they can't make more then the company or there will be no more company. MLB's union is cannibalizing it self right now. They don;t give a shit about the game or the fans or a bunch of millionaires would not even be considering a strike. The average salary is abotu $3-4 million BTW and they still want more.

The basic premis of a union is a good idea but they gain too much power and intentionally hurt their employers, which is coutner productive and just plain fucking stupid for their own future.