Guest alkeiper Report post Posted July 12, 2002 Expos get..... Cliff Floyd Claudio Vargas Wilton Guerrero Cash Floyd's a .300 hitter with power. And he can run too. Minor concern with playing on artificial turf though, given his health. Claudio Vargas is a mid range prospect. Wilton Guerrero's a utility infielder with limited skills. Really, the big deal here is Floyd. Marlins get...... Juan Encarnacion Ryan Snare Carl Pavano Graeme Lloyd Mike Mordecai Justin Wayne Josh Karp Lots of players here. First off, Floyd is a free agent after this year. Encarnacion is a middle of the pack outfielder playing well over his head. Pro Player Stadium will do no favors for his stats. Ryan Snare's a borderline prospect. Carl Pavano's a decent pitcher with a long history of injuries. Graeme Lloyd's an above average reliever on the way down. Mike Mordecai's barely worth a big league roster spot. Justin Wayne is a top prospect, and Josh Karp is a first round pick. FWIW, Karp won't be announced as the PTBNL until September, due to rules with trading draftees. Reds get..... rid of Juan Encarnacion Ryan Dempster The Reds needed an ace, and they got one without giving up much in return. Dempster's great, as long as he can stay healthy. So who got the best of this trade? Probably the Reds. The Expos are borderline contenders, and they've absolutely decimated their farm system. The Reds are a few games out of first, and the Cardinals are hanging together by a thread. The Marlins may have a good deal depending on how Justin Wayne develops. Thanks to my copy of Baseball Prospectus for background on the prospects. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Report post Posted July 12, 2002 Looks good to me. Reds did good Expos got someone to back up Vlad for a last run at the playoffs in their last year (thus his contract matters not) and the MArlins dumped who they wanted too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 12, 2002 YES! We needed to end the stupid outfield revolver and getting A great #3 pitcher like Dempster will surely help! Put a smile on my face...and this helps All three teams... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Phr33k Report post Posted July 12, 2002 Cliff Floyd will not back up Guerrero. Starting lineup: CF Brad WILKERSON 2B Jose VIDRO RF Vladimir GUERRERO LF Cliff FLOYD 3B Fernando TATIS 1B Andres GALARRAGA SS Orlando CABRERA C Michael BARRETT. That is one hell of a lineup. Also, every report I've seen says that they didn't give up Karp. Why do you say they did? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted July 12, 2002 My source was espn.com. Cliff Floyd traded I've since heard a different player as well. Probably doesn't make much of a difference. Either one won't make the majors until 2004. As for Floyd, perhaps bps meant in the sense of the lineup? I think it was Dave Campbell on Sportscenter who had a good point, that you should bat Floyd AHEAD of Guerrero, cause you can't really pitch around Guerrero. Makes sense to me. I think the best part of Montreal now is their rotation. Colon/Vasquez is as good a combo as anybody not named Schilling/Johnson. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Zero_Cool Report post Posted July 12, 2002 Hey, didn't Floyd go FROM the Expos to the Marlins back in like 98? The Expos' line-up is scary to say the least. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bravesfan Report post Posted July 12, 2002 Their only shot is at the wild-card though...lol I, as a follower of Justin Wayne (pitched in Hawaii in HS years) will tell you that he will be the Marlin's 2nd-3rd pitcher (behind Beckett/???) He needs alot of work on his speed and stuff though (only high 80's on his fastball), but his changeup and curve is his power combo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest starvenger Report post Posted July 12, 2002 >Hey, didn't Floyd go FROM the Expos to the Marlins back in like 98? Something like that. Wilton's a former Expo as well, AND IIRC he's Vlad's brother. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest treble charged Report post Posted July 12, 2002 Yeah, Wilton is Vlad's brother. I don't really like this trade for the Expos as much as I liked the intial rumours that had Dempster going to Montreal, too. Sure, their offence is pretty damn amazing now, but another top line starter in the rotation is what they needed more than anything. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Human Fly Report post Posted July 12, 2002 All the Reds need now is for Griffey to get healthy and to get rid of Aaron Boone so Brandon Larson can be an everyday player. We needed a good Starting Pitcher because our Bullpen is getting overworked. Hopefully we can get some more innings now from our Starters (at least one, Dempster usually throws a lot of innings) and maybe we can still swing another trade. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 12, 2002 I still find it annoying that Cincy allows a below .250 hitter to start every day when they got a Prime time player in Brandon Larson waiting in TA whose very much similar to Casey but quicker. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Some Guy Report post Posted July 12, 2002 They are trying to raise the value of the Expos, so it's a good deal for them. If the Expos win the Wildcard it will. Carl Pavano was shipped out of Boston's minor leagues becasue of his suspect shoulder/elbow. We got Pedro fo him and Tony Armas Jr. and someone else. I'd say that trade worked out well for the Sox. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Man in Blak Report post Posted July 12, 2002 Yeah. Pavano can essentially be considered a bust, now that his tenure in Montreal is over. Personally, I'm kind of glad they got rid of him and I think that the Expos really got the better end of the deal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Human Fly Report post Posted July 12, 2002 I still find it annoying that Cincy allows a below .250 hitter to start every day when they got a Prime time player in Brandon Larson waiting in TA whose very much similar to Casey but quicker. It's only because "daddy" is the coach. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Well...They brought LARSON up but only to bench. I wish Boone would get hurt again...Jr manages it three times in one year...why can't he? Oh, yeah...He has no balls. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest kkktookmybabyaway Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Eww, Demp's first start with the Reds: 3.2 innings 6 runs 6 hits 4 walks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Some Guy Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Ouch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted July 13, 2002 He never was good against Houston. He better be great against St. Louie. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest kkktookmybabyaway Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Well, he couldn't be much worse... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted July 13, 2002 Choken One, any ineptituder by Ryan Dempster will soon be cancelled out by the impending return of Andy Benes. Note to Tony LaRussa, Andy Benes is no longer a major league caliber pitcher. Nor has he been for two years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Man in Blak Report post Posted July 15, 2002 Note to Tony LaRussa, Andy Benes is no longer a major league caliber pitcher. Nor has he been for two years. Indeed - Benes was actually slated to retire after his injury early on this year, but the fact that the Cardinals pitching corps has been totally hacked and slashed put LaRussa in a hard spot. But desperate times call for desperate measures, and when Stephenson, Ankiel, and Darryl Kile (R.I.P) are out of your rotation, even a broken-down Andy Benes is better than the alternative (having a reliever like Mike Timlin start the game). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted July 15, 2002 This comes about because Woody Williams is once again sidelined, leaving the Cardinals rotation looking like this...... Matt Morris Bud Smith Jason Simontacci Travis Smith Andy Benes I don't think Andy Benes is better than too many alternatives. Forfeiting the game might even be a better choice, because you won't expend the bullpen for 7 innings. Ankiel, Stephenson and Benes never pitched a quality inning last year after April. They never should've been counted on to contribute this year. It's amazing the Cardinals are still in it. I'd like to see the Cards give Mike Matthews another shot in the rotation. He did well last year, and when Luther Hackman is starting games, you look to anyone who can give you six innings. Except Andy Benes of course. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest bps "The Truth" 21 Report post Posted July 15, 2002 "Cliff Floyd will not back up Guerrero. Starting lineup: CF Brad WILKERSON 2B Jose VIDRO RF Vladimir GUERRERO LF Cliff FLOYD" This is what I meant be back up Guerrero. Now they have someone to protect him in the lineup. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Man in Blak Report post Posted July 15, 2002 This comes about because Woody Williams is once again sidelined, leaving the Cardinals rotation looking like this...... Matt Morris Bud Smith Jason Simontacci Travis Smith Andy Benes And, just as a stern contrast, here's what their starting rotation looked like at the beginning of the year: Matt Morris Darryl Kile Woody Williams Bud Smith Garrett Stephenson / Rick Ankiel / Andy Benes The front four looked awesome after their performances from last year, but NOBODY expected Smith's meltdown, or William's recurrent injuries, or Stephenson & Ankiel's struggle with injury rehab, or Kile's death. God bless Jason Simontacchi, who basically came in and stepped up as a #4 starter. But past Morris and Simontacchi, the rotation is in ruins - Bud Smith picked up his first win of the year today, but one win doesn't mean he's resurgent and, as the Cardinals have found out, anything can happen. That being said, with the rotation totally torn apart, the bullpen is already going to be stretched beyond its limits and, therefore, if Andy Benes can come in and pitch six innings, then that would be great. Sure, it would likely be six innings of total blowout baseball, but that's six innings that the ragged Cardinals bullpen wouldn't have to pitch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted July 15, 2002 That being said, with the rotation totally torn apart, the bullpen is already going to be stretched beyond its limits and, therefore, if Andy Benes can come in and pitch six innings, then that would be great. That's a big 'if.' Benes pitched 3 games in the majors this year. All 3 times he failed to pitch beyond the 4th inning. He walked more than a batter per inning, and he sports a lofty 10.80 ERA. Last year he finished with a 7.38 ERA and walked nearly as many batters as he struck out. He's had two chances to come back and he's failed both times. A this point, its better to call up someone like Clint Weibl and see what he can do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest The Man in Blak Report post Posted July 15, 2002 While giving the young talent experience is always a good idea, I think the Cardinals are a little tentative after watching Rick Ankiel (and even Bud Smith, to some extent) flourish for one year and then fall apart at the seams. They've been rolling the dice with Simontacchi and Travis Smith so far - they may want to keep Weibl at the farm until later in the season, when any other disaster strikes. All being said, though, Benes would be a better fit in the bullpen, where he wouldn't be as challenged to hold his stuff through a longer outing. And, to get back on track with the original topic, I really think the Reds got the raw end of the deal here, as Dempster has been inconsistent at best and Encarnacion was lighting it up in Cincy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted July 15, 2002 The Reds followed the simplist trade principle in baseball. They traded something they had too much of (outfielder) to get what they needed more of (starting pitching). Griffey's not gonna sit on the bench when he comes back, and Kearns and Dunn are future superstars, and in Dunn's case, he may very well BE a superstar right now. Encarnacion was playing better than anyone expected, but he really has nowhere to go but down. His trade value was higher than it ever will be, and I think they got a pretty good pitcher in return. And if Dempster doesn't pitch well, it won't do much to hurt them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Vern Gagne Report post Posted July 15, 2002 Didn't Andy Benes retire? I really don't see him helping the Cards very much. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest alkeiper Report post Posted July 15, 2002 That was the original plan, but Benes still wanted to pitch, so the Cards put him on the DL and had him pitch "on rehab" at AAA, never intending to see his face again. But strange things happen sometimes. FWIW, Benes first start is tomorrow against the Dodgers. My prediction, Benes goes 4 innings, gives up 6 runs, and Shawn Green will plant the first Benes fastball about 15 rows into the right field stands. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
