Super J Cup '94 and '95

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

Just checked the p.o. box this morning, and wala: there they were. I've been hyped about this for awhile now. I figured I'd stick this up here now for whatever reason and post my response to the intial viewing later. Man I can't wait.

[Guest Nezbyte]

Have fun. J-Sup 94 is balls out awesome.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

Well my dad didn't want to watch the whole tape in one sitting, so we just watched the first half of the first round. Let me just say my mind is blown. There is just so much different. People told me Puro was different than WWE, but I didn't see how pro-wrestling could be much different. Boy it is though. It was really wierd to watch, and I'm not sure if I "get it" yet. One thing I can say though is it seems structurally different that the WWE's matches. I'm not sure if I can put it into words but I'll try...

 

The difference seemed like in WWE it was always two characters fighting over something that went on in their "real life". In this it seemed like two wrestlers were fighting because it's what they were meant to do... And the puro guys really all were able to communicate a story in their matches. I guess that's the best way I can put what really hooked me.

 

Another big thing that had me and my dad rolling with laughter was the crowd. In the beggining of Malenko/Gedo they were completely silent and my dad and I just were baffled; it was a neat match. We wondered what was up with the crowd and then after the first time Gedo kicked out; they clapped? We were in histerics. Just seemed like such a wierd change from the normal WWE crowd that is constantly roaring. These people were sitting their respectfully and quietly watching.

 

And of course, the match content was much different. Alot more holds. And it seemed like more of a wrestling match than a wrestling match if you know what I mean. The few times they deviated were when one wrestler got beat and rolled out, then the guy in the ring always leapt out at him (some of those looked hokey... but also it seemed like a big deal to force another guy to roll out. Maybe the fans were expecting the dive?) The moves either look weaker or more brutal than the WWE ones, it seems. I would attribute it to A. the japanese guys are shorter and can't make it look like there was such massive impact and B. some of these guys are crazy enough to land right on their neck.

 

Anyway I figured I'd try to give ratings to the matches when I came back but I'm so unused to what I just saw I don't think I can fairly do that... MY favourite though was Malenko/Gedo so far. I was digging Gedo, for whatever reason, and was into it when Dean was trying to pin him and he could get out. The Delfin match was ok but I didn't really get why he wasn't selling the leg for a damn. Kind of cheapend the submissions in the match. TAKA/Eddy was fun. It really made me like TAKA. And Motegi/Samurai had the SURFBOARD STRETCH~! That move is awesome. I didn't like the Casas match at all. I liked Liger, but I didn't like the match a whole lot. Hayabusa didn't seem very good.

 

Then again, I am a complete mark when it comes to puro, so I could be way off. I'll post again as the saga continues.

[Guest wolverine]

Keep in mind that New Japan junior heavyweights is only one of the many different puroresu styles. It's best to try them all out, to see which one you're most interested in and go from there. Personally, while I enjoyed the J-Cup '94 and similar tournaments, I had the most interest in the All Japan 90's style once I got a taste of it. I've also dabbled in high-flying styles such as Michinoku Pro and Toryumon, as well as shoot style promotions like UWF and UWFi, and Joshi (women). It's a ton of fun to explore all of this stuff.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Welcome to the wonderful world of puro Mr. Mark

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Yeah, remember that there's plenty of alternate styles out there, although the NJ Junior style is probably the best to start with. Try to experience a little of everything.

 

Yeah, Delphin's selling is annoying in that match, but I'm sure you'll grow to enjoy Ohtani more as you see more wrestling, since most fans find it very easy to get into his great facial expresions and tremendous selling. Also, that tourniment is great in that it continues getting better until it peaks at the very end, so you have a lot of great stuff to look forward to.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

Well I just finished '94. Wow. I'm at a loss for words. Those last two matches were amazing. And beside that, all the matches after the preliminaries were good. I love every single person on this board who recommended this tape. And Sasuke.

[Guest RavishingRickRudo]

I was not overwhelmed by the 94 J-cup when I first saw it. I was expecting insane high spots and was hoping for english commentary (OH HOW YOUNG I WAS! ) so I was disappointed in that regard. Not to mention I didn't know who 3/4's of the guys were.

 

...But dammit, those last two matches got me~!

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I was not overwhelmed by the 94 J-cup when I first saw it. I was expecting insane high spots and was hoping for english commentary (OH HOW YOUNG I WAS! ) so I was disappointed in that regard. Not to mention I didn't know who 3/4's of the guys were.

 

...But dammit, those last two matches got me~!

Yeah, wasn't too wowed by the '94 J-Cup either, until the last two matches, of course. Having re-watched it several times, I've come to really enjoy several other matches on there, like Samurai/Sasuke, Malenko/Gedoh and Hayabusa/Liger.

[Guest Black Tiger]

The key to enjoying Puro when you first get into it, is to not watch whole tapes in one sitting. You'll be bored out of your mind because you don't know anything too look for in the match, its just two guys fighting, and there is no english PBP for you pick up any hints.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I realised that exact same thing after watching the whole of the Super J Cup 94 in one sitting. Now I watch puro one match at a time, much more enjoyable.

[Guest Trivia247]

Super J Cup 94, Is a Great introduction to The Junior styles for People unfamilar with the Japanese wrestling styles. every wrestler kicked ass even Gedo. The Sasuke vs Liger Semi Finals match was the best of the series.

[Guest wolverine]

"The Sasuke vs Liger Semi Finals match was the best of the series."

 

A lot of people say that, but I had it at either 1/4* or 1/2* below the finals. It just doesn't hold up as one of the best junior matches ever IMO.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I disagree I'm afraid. Although Benoit / Sasuke was a great match with amazing execution, superb sequences and good 'external' psychology (by that I mean using Dynamite Kid vs. Tiger Mask as a blueprint), it lacked a consistent story and focus. Lyger / Sasuke was slightly less well executed in terms of workrate, it did have a consistent story and heaps of charisma added by Lyger, so IMO that match is the better.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

"The Sasuke vs Liger Semi Finals match was the best of the series."

 

A lot of people say that, but I had it at either 1/4* or 1/2* below the finals. It just doesn't hold up as one of the best junior matches ever IMO.

couldn't agree more

[Guest wolverine]

I honestly don't think charisma should be a factor in a match's quality. But you're right, it's indeed a damn good match, but I've seen Liger have better "story" matches than this (i.e. vs. Ohtani 3/17/96).

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

The preliminaries really sucked, I thought. But I watched the rest and that was watchable, and then it got down to the last three matches and I was really into it. Benoit/Gedo was one of my dad's favourites and I really dug it, too. I think Sasuke/Liger was easily the best match on the card and probably the best match I've ever seen. I think it's pretty good when two wrestlers you know very little about can put together a match so well they have you cheering and "marking out". The way Sasuke did, I was really cheering for him against Benoit... But hey Benoit was a good winner, too. The next match, while yes, I think it was damn good, just didn't make me react the way the other match did.

 

I just watched most of '95, which I must say is alot better so far. The exhibition match is coming up (Misterio/Psicosis, I think) and I have to say every match so far was very watchable and rivals some of the better WWE stuff I've seen. I liked the Mochizuki/Ohtani match alot, the striking portions were very cool and looked pretty good. Motegi sells so well it makes his whole match great. Of course, every quaterfinals match is awesome and I was particularly wowed by the Jericho/Benoit match. Of course, Ultimo/Liger kicked ass, and Benoit/Gedo was pretty freaking good, too.

 

I'm still psyched for the last two matches.

[Guest Dace59]

I loved Benoit/Jericho just to laugh at Jericho. It know it's childish, and we all know and use those words, but still, and the bitch slap was cool.

Too bad about watering down the finish from BOSJ 95 against Eddie, but still, you really can't blame them, unless you're a trained worker, and will take the move yourself like Eddie did.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

The next match, while yes, I think it was damn good, just didn't make me react the way the other match did.

The Sasuke/Benoit final is the best Jr. Heavyweight Match i've ever seen. I think you should watch it again.

 

Super J Cup 94 is much better than 95 IMO. 95 has a lot more average stuff, and aside from Liger/Ultimo doesn't have the standout matches that 94 has. Oh, and Gedo in the final??WTF???????

[Guest wolverine]

"I think Sasuke/Liger was easily the best match on the card and probably the best match I've ever seen."

 

Even if you've never seen anything outside of WWF/WCW, I can't see how this beats either Hart-Austin match, Rey-Eddy, Michaels-Foley, Michaels-Ramon II, or Bret-Owen I. Oh well.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

I saw Michaels/Ramon, but I only watched it a couple times and I don't really remember it very well. I think I was just excited a the time I typed that about it and blew it out of proportin. Anyway I had a couple of questions being a mark about this and all. All the matches you mentioned though happend when I was pretty young and though I think I have seen a few of them I don't recollect them very well.

 

- Is Gedo any good or is he being carried through these matches? Also, has he ever been in any matches worthy of note?

 

- Are these matches really the best Junior matches out there or are they just recommended because the whole card is strong?

 

The Sasuke/Benoit final is the best Jr. Heavyweight Match i've ever seen. I think you should watch it again.

 

I plan on it. I think I was still thinking about the Liger/Sasuke match while it was going on and didn't give it a fair chance.

 

Super J Cup 94 is much better than 95 IMO. 95 has a lot more average stuff, and aside from Liger/Ultimo doesn't have the standout matches that 94 has. Oh, and Gedo in the final??WTF???????

 

I like '95 better because some of the matches on '94 sucked, while every match on '95 I've seens so far has been good. No, it hasn't had anything as good as Sasuke/Liger or Benoit/Sasuke but still Ultimo/Liger and Benoit/Jericho were great.

 

I'm gonna rewatch most of the matches a few times before I really pass judgement on the whole situation though.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I agree with Mr. Mark on the comparison between the 95 and the 94 tourny's. IMO the J Cup 94 suffered from most of the workers being NJPW guys. A lot of the matches on that show are fairly similar, and I think this hurts the card overall. The 95 version features all sorts of different talent from all over the place, you have more different characters, more different styles and, therefore, more interesting wrestling. I also agree that there is very few matches on the 95 J Cup that I won't be watching in ten years, whereas in the 94 version, I could skip to the final few matches every time and lose nothing.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

- Is Gedo any good or is he being carried through these matches? Also, has he ever been in any matches worthy of note?

 

- Are these matches really the best Junior matches out there or are they just recommended because the whole card is strong?

 

The Sasuke/Benoit final is the best Jr. Heavyweight Match i've ever seen. I think you should watch it again.

 

I plan on it. I think I was still thinking about the Liger/Sasuke match while it was going on and didn't give it a fair chance.

 

Super J Cup 94 is much better than 95 IMO. 95 has a lot more average stuff, and aside from Liger/Ultimo doesn't have the standout matches that 94 has. Oh, and Gedo in the final??WTF???????

 

I like '95 better because some of the matches on '94 sucked, while every match on '95 I've seens so far has been good. No, it hasn't had anything as good as Sasuke/Liger or Benoit/Sasuke but still Ultimo/Liger and Benoit/Jericho were great.

 

I'm gonna rewatch most of the matches a few times before I really pass judgement on the whole situation though.

Gedoh was basically being carried through '94 and '95, in my opinion. He just didn't look like he really belonged there, though Benoit really did manage to get a lot out of him, I thought. Gedoh is now quite the beloved worker and has had some good matches in M Pro and part of the NJ Junior division. I'm not really an authority on his work, but Stuart or someone else well-initiated into the current NJ Junior scene can probably forward you to some good stuff.

 

You really should re-watch Sasuke/Pegasus. While I the comparison to Tiger Mask/Dynamite Kid is bound to be made, I really don't think they used it as a "template" as much as they used it as their inspiration. Sasuke really is a different worker than Sayama was, and while Benoit imitates Billington as much as he possibly can, he's not the same worker, for better or worse. I love that match because every fall is a near fall, every move is crisp and judging by the way both men performed earlier, it makes sense and ends in a way that makes sense.

 

'94 is a better tourniment as far as having the most high-end matches and building to an awesome final, but '95 is overall easier to sit through (especially if you're a new fan) because of the strong contrast in styles from match to match. At the end of the day, though, the peak match for '95 is Lyger Ultimo, which, while a great match with awesome work by both, doesn't achieve the quality of Sasuke/Liger or Sasuke/Pegasus. Also, I think a lot of the work in '94 is under-rated, with matches like Sasuke/Samurai and Tiger/Pegasus being quite solid and well worth watching.

 

Anyway, I would recomend that next you purchase the Sky Diving J and J*Crown tourniment, in that order, since the former directly effects the latter. It's in the '96 tourni that you will see Ultimo/Ohtani actually achieve the amazing match they were trying to have in '95, and the result is a match that I love even more than Sasuke Pegasus. Basically, you want all this.

[Guest wolverine]

Actually, I thought the highlight of '95 was Rey-Psicosis. I think Rey stole the show with his incredible hang time, and crisp, crisp moves. Probably the best under 10-minute match I've ever seen. ****1/4

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Actually, I thought the highlight of '95 was Rey-Psicosis. I think Rey stole the show with his incredible hang time, and crisp, crisp moves. Probably the best under 10-minute match I've ever seen. ****1/4

For some reason I always forget about that match in relation to the '95 J Cup. I have to say, it was better than Ultimo/Lyger, and probably the best spot-fest ever. Deffinately my favorite Rey match, coming from someone who hasn't seen Vs. Eddy from '97. ****1/4 sounds about right.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Nope, that match was nothing but Rey jumping, how can that be called a great match? It had literally no build, no story, virtually no offence from Psicosis and was nothing but high spots... all of which involved a form of hurricanrana I might add, so it didn't even have variation.

 

**1/2 at most.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Rey/Psicosis from 12/13/95 wasn't a match. It was just an exhibition, Dragon's way of introducing two of Lucha's better stars to a new audience. It is kind of like rating 6 way elimination matches.........as each section is different and can't be rated as a whole.

 

Benoit/Sasuke is easily the best match from either J Cup.............but is not the best Juniors match by a long shot.

 

The 3/16/96 Rey v Juve from Tijuana is the best match in North America in 1996, the best Juniors style match ever, and a top 5 best North American match in the 1990's.

 

Tim

[Guest Trivia247]

I mean't During the Super J Cup Not All Time! geez

[Guest wolverine]

Rey/Psicosis from 12/13/95 wasn't a match. It was just an exhibition, Dragon's way of introducing two of Lucha's better stars to a new audience. It is kind of like rating 6 way elimination matches.........as each section is different and can't be rated as a whole.

 

Benoit/Sasuke is easily the best match from either J Cup.............but is not the best Juniors match by a long shot.

 

The 3/16/96 Rey v Juve from Tijuana is the best match in North America in 1996, the best Juniors style match ever, and a top 5 best North American match in the 1990's.

 

Tim

And Toyota/Yamada vs. Kansai/Ozaki 11/26/92 is better than Misawa vs. Kawada 10/21/92.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

After reading this thread, I've rewatched the Sasuke/Benoit and the Sasuke/Lyger match and I came this conclusion.

 

Sasuke/Benoit is the much better worked match, and the storyline is much deeper. The Lyger/Sasuke match may have been simpler but it had a much more engaging and emotional storyline. It's easier to get more involved with an emotional underdog vs. legend match. Lyger easily established his superiority through his mannerisms, and the ease he had in dominating Sasuke early in the match. The match is simply much easier to get into. That's probably why alot of people(not on this board) like Lyger/Sasuke more.

 

I also like the Beniot/Black Tiger matches around that time(not the actual JCup match, though) alot better than the Sasuke/Beniot match. Especially when Benoit started to play the heel. Sasuke/Benoit was great, but it is a tad overrated in my book, and as others said it's far from the best junior match of all time.

 

So I would say the Lyger/Sasuke and Sasuke/Benoit matches are about even at ****1/4 to ****1/2. Which is pretty much the norm rating for either of those matches.