Super J Cup '94 and '95

[Guest thefrenchargel]

Sasuke/Benoit was ***** IMO. I can't see how it's less than that.

 

I'd give the Sasuke/Lyger match ****3/4, 5 if Sasuke hadn't botched the finish and wrecked the flow of the match. Lyger covered for it well though.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Nope, that match was nothing but Rey jumping, how can that be called a great match? It had literally no build, no story, virtually no offence from Psicosis and was nothing but high spots... all of which involved a form of hurricanrana I might add, so it didn't even have variation.

 

To say that match is a spot fest is like saying fast food is fatening. However, it's probably the best one I've ever seen, or will see. I think the story was Rey and Nicho trying to out-do each other to impress the crowd, and make no mistake, that's exactly what they did. Psichosis got his offense in, but he spent most of the match being overwhelmed by Rey. The focus isn't on Rey's attempts to overwhelm his rival, though, it's on his ability to soar through the air in ways thought impossible. The high spots they use defy gravity and I've yet to see someone fire off that many "holy shit" moves one after the other, with making each one seem more insane than the one before. The spots hit one after the other in a rhythmic way and keep the match flow up, and the varriyation is not only in how Rey can hit his ranas and dives in increasingly tricked-out ways, but how much hang-time he gets off of each one, which makes him seem almost inhuman. It is a spot-fest, but that doesn't mean it didn't steal the show, or that it didn't leave a lasting impression on the fans. While Ultimo/Liger was a great exibition for mat-work and quick "familiarity exchanges" Rey/Psichosis is a better exibition for out-of-this-world spots. I have to stand by my opinion that it was the best match on the card that night.

 

I'd give the Sasuke/Lyger match ****3/4, 5 if Sasuke hadn't botched the finish and wrecked the flow of the match. Lyger covered for it well though.

 

While I've already given my thoughts on this and the Sasuke/Pegasus match, I'm not entirely sure the ending was botched. That may have been the ending they were looking for, and it made sense, considering Liger had just knocked Sasuke loopy with a kopo kick, which would account for him being uncordinated and unable to pull off the springboard. It also makes sense given that it was clear any win Sasuke got was going to be an upset from seeing them work the match.

 

The 3/16/96 Rey v Juve from Tijuana is the best match in North America in 1996, the best Juniors style match ever, and a top 5 best North American match in the 1990's.

 

Having only seen them work one match in ECW that year, I'm a little skeptical on whether they're capable of accomplishing what you say they did, but I guess I'll just have to see for myself, won't I?

[Guest Jubuki]

Sasuke/Liger was unintentional. It only looks intentional because Liger covered to some extent. But wrestlers never go out there with the intent of falling flat on their face like that.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Regarding RickyChosyu's thoughts on Rey / Psicosis...

 

Although it was a well paced and good spot fest, it doesn't come anywhere near anything from the KDX vs. Sekigun feud, so I don't know how you can call it the best spot fest you have ever seen. Also, personally, I will always take build, emotion, selling, variety and great matwork over an ability to 'soar through the air', so nearly everyhting else on the card will always come above Rey / Psicosis for me.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Regarding RickyChosyu's thoughts on Rey / Psicosis...

 

Although it was a well paced and good spot fest, it doesn't come anywhere near anything from the KDX vs. Sekigun feud, so I don't know how you can call it the best spot fest you have ever seen. Also, personally, I will always take build, emotion, selling, variety and great matwork over an ability to 'soar through the air', so nearly everyhting else on the card will always come above Rey / Psicosis for me.

Personally, I've never thought of the KDX/Sekigun matches as true spot fests in the way that Rey/Psichosis is. They tell stories, most of the time, with build up and pacing. Just because they use breath-taking areal moves doesn't mean it's a spot fest. Not the way Rey/Psichosis is. As a match, Rey/Psichosis is better than several of the matches that KDX and the Sekigun had anyway.

 

If by the emotion, selling, and variety you were talking about Ultimo/Liger, there really wasn't too much emotion, other than their familiarity towards each other. Most of the holds and mat-work doesn't actually play into the finish and while impressive, is really just filler. To me, that makes a bit of a spot-fest in it's own way, with Key locks and head-scissors holds in the place of topes and diving hurricanranas. In it's own way, Rey/Psichosis surpased everything else from that night, even if they decided to do it without lots of pointless matwork.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Well this is the thing, you prefer pointless high spots... I prefer pointless matwork, hence we have different opinions on the better matches.

[Guest What?]

Well this is the thing, you prefer pointless high spots... I prefer pointless matwork, hence we have different opinions on the better matches.

Since when do I prefer one over the other? I simply thought the pointless high spots were done better in this case.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Eh? Who are you? I was referring to RickyChosyu... not you...

[Guest Black Tiger]

The story told in Rey vs Psicosis is that Rey can do a Hurracanrana from a bunch of different positions. Its fun to watch but that sure as hell doesn't make it a great match.

[Guest saturnmark4life]

Haven't watched 94 in a while, but as a casual purohead Sasuke/Lyger is the one that blew me away the most.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

I'd give the Sasuke/Lyger match ****3/4, 5 if Sasuke hadn't botched the finish and wrecked the flow of the match. Lyger covered for it well though.

 

If anything, I feel the ending added to the match. It was an awesome moment and really made the ending seem better than if he had just lept of, got him and one. I think that it made all of the beating Liger did mean something, so much that Sasuke didn't have it together and Liger was getting cocky so that's why he lost. I feel the match would have been worse if it hadn't happend. If it hadn't happened, the ending would've seemed to abrupt and kind of cheap. That made it great.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

The Rey Jr. v Juve ECW series what just another series of matches that kept seeing Juve really grow. He played to the dumbass ECW mutant fans by ditching the mat work in order to get Rey over with all of his flying moves and get Juve over with the crowd with his large moveset and heel charisma.

 

The 3/16/96 Rey Jr v Juve is on ANOTHER level. This took their prior AAA series and blended everything great and made a perfect match. The match started with 4 minutes of great mat work that stole spots from UWF and NJ Juniors. Then they go to work with great spots.

 

The selling in this match is also what sets it apart. In the 3rd fall, Rey struggles to the ropes when Juve applies a Dragon Suplex that won him the first fall. Also, on a powerbomb attempt by Juve, Rey drops to one knee in Misawa/Kawada fashion. And after the first round of mat work, Juve sells the leg like he is fucking Kawada.

 

*****, even with the run in, which as some have written in the past actually works.

 

Everyone needs to see it.

 

Get it as bobbarnett.com

 

Tim

[Guest Black Tiger]

My feeling is that since Sasuke fucked up the spot, its not *****. To me a match is ***** when its totaly flawless, add or subtract anything and the match is worse off.

 

However the story of the match being Lyger getting cocky from the ass kicking he's giving Sasuke and letting his guard down, when Sasuke fell on his face and Sasuke getting the win plays out very well. But since he fucked up its not *****, ****3/4 is nothing to scoff at in any type of match.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

I watched the spotfest thing. I didn't like it very much. Sure there were some cool acrobatic spots but if I wanted to watch people flip around I could just go to the circus and check out the trapeeze artists or gymnasts. As far as being the best spot fest every I have to disagree. The TLC matches that had no storytelling were all more action filled and were more exciting. Plus the spots were just as good if not better. I would give the match maybe *** or something but it seemed very out of place on a card full of deep storytelling and the like. That's just me though.

 

Another question about that; is Psicosis really fucking huge or is Rey just really small?

[Guest Tim Cooke]

TLC better than any 1995/1996 Rey/Psic spot fu? Gotcha!

 

That name doesn't appear out of no where.

 

Tim

[Guest thefrenchargel]

Another question about that; is Psicosis really fucking huge or is Rey just really small?

Rey Jr. is MINISCULE. I'm of average size, (about 6'1") and I completely dwarf the man. In fact, he was once asked to wrestle as a mini in Mexico. True story.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

"TLC better than any 1995/1996 Rey/Psic spot fu? Gotcha!"

 

Tim, he didn't even say that, he said that the Rey / Psic Super J Cup 95 match was worse than the TLC's... which I agree with 100%. Also, just because he prefers one match with zero psychology over another match with zero psychology doesn't make him a mark.

[Guest XdojimeX]

"Also, just because he prefers one match with zero psychology over another match with zero psychology doesn't make him a mark."

 

Zero psychology? Is this like when people say "so and so wrestler has no psychology"? Or my favorite "This match has too much psychology". What sense does that make? There's good psych, nifty psych, psych that draws you in, psych that kicks you right in the head and blows you away. There's bad psych, shallow psych, psych that puts you to sleep, psych that totally loses you. If there's a beginning there must come an end. There's always psychology going on at some level in a wrestling match, the story is being told one way or another. It's not a quantitive element.

 

Oh and I'd take young and healthy Rey hitting crisp ranas on Psic over Hardy falling through tables any day of the week.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

platty, this is what he said:

 

"The TLC matches that had no storytelling were all more action filled and were more exciting. Plus the spots were just as good if not better."

 

To me, that would seem that he says the TLC matches were better than the Rey/Psic match. To each his own I guess........all though falling through tables compared to taking rana's at a billion different angles and woo'ing a Japanese crowd who had never seen these two before scores more points with me than a gimmick match that exposes everything wrong with American wrestling today.

 

Tim

[Guest PlatypusFool]

I enjoyed watching both matches, but I enjoyed watching the TLC's more. That's what wrestling comes down to for me, if I enjoy it, I rate it highly, if I enjoy it more I rate it higher. Since the TLC's had less pauses in the action and a higher concentration of more varied spots, I enjoyed it more, hence, I rate it higher.

[Guest TheyCallMeMark]

I didn't particularly enjoy the Rey/Psicosis match, and I don't particularly enjoy the TLC matches. I just think someone jumping off a ladder through two tables is alot cooler than doing, say, a rana off the top rope (which isn't exactly and uncommon maneavure). Platypus' feelings echo my own, Rey/Psicosis for such and "exciting" match had alot of dead space. The TLC matches for the most part were non-stop spots. I don't rate either very highly, though...

[Guest thefrenchargel]

I didn't particularly enjoy the Rey/Psicosis match, and I don't particularly enjoy the TLC matches. I just think someone jumping off a ladder through two tables is alot cooler than doing, say, a rana off the top rope (which isn't exactly and uncommon maneavure). Platypus' feelings echo my own, Rey/Psicosis for such and "exciting" match had alot of dead space. The TLC matches for the most part were non-stop spots. I don't rate either very highly, though...

You should check out Rey and Psi's 2/3 falls match from ECW November to Remember in 95. You'd probably dig it a lot more, no wasted time, just full-on assault the whole way through. Finishes up with a wild brawl and some crazy ass spots.

[Guest NoCalMike]

You should check out Rey and Psi's 2/3 falls match from ECW November to Remember in 95. You'd probably dig it a lot more, no wasted time, just full-on assault the whole way through. Finishes up with a wild brawl and some crazy ass spots. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

I think that was mexican death match where once you were pinned you had a "10 count" to get to your feet. and it ended ****SPOILER**** with Rey doing the huricanrana off the balcony onto the hard cement with a chair laying on the ground. Psicosis understandably did NOT answer the 10 count after that...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I'd just like to add my two cents to the arguement:

 

First, in Rey/Psichosis, I think the psych is different than the TLC matches. While those seem to have created their own sub-genre, the psyche seems to be "destroy each other with prop spots until everyone but you is dead" With that many teams involved, there's just too much time where everyone is waiting until it's their turn to hit a spot. While this allows the match to have a continous flow of spots, one has to wonder what the hell the other two/three/four people are doing while the current train wreck goes on. Rey/Psichosis is more "Rey shows that he can use his size to his advantage" While there is dead time, it allows the spots to sink in more, and while they're sinking in, there is never a question of "what the other guys are doing" like in the TLC matches because Rey/Psichosis is just a two-man show. Rey brings crazy spot after crazy spot and he does more than just inovate table bumps, he inovates the way he can use his body to soar through the air and defy gravity. For me, that takes the cake over any train wreck-filled mess of a match.