Brock needs to beat RVD.

[Guest Edwin MacPhisto]

This might seem like a foregone conclusion to some of you, but I know there's been a lot of talk about RVD retaining the IC belt somehow at Vengeance.

 

Problem is, if he does, what does that leave us with Brock? A guy heading into a world title shot who just lost to the IC champ.

 

Do you agree? If the WWE is sticking with the plan of Brock getting his title shot at Summerslam (and since Lesnar's been doing photo-shoots for the event, it's probably a forgone conclusion), would you rather have:

 

1) RVD beating Brock, holding on to the IC belt, and Brock, having just suffered his first loss and losing to someone further down the card, going on to face Taker/Rock/Angle for the title, or

 

2) Brock beating RVD and winning the IC belt, looking strong and at least like a viable contender to the established main event star he'll be facing at Summerslam.

 

Those are your choices, unfortunately, because I don't think we're going to get any major shake-ups. Of course, when in doubt, you could always go for some sort of DQ in Brock/RVD, but...supposing they don't. Which do you choose?

[Guest NazMistry]

If they are going to push Brock like this, then yes Brock should beat RVD.

But the fans are just about giving up on the WWE, so RVD must be pushed to see if he is the answer.

[Guest GenerationNever]

RVD beats Brock, while Brock beats Rock. RVD keeps the IC title, wins the Royal Rumble, faces Brock at WrestleMania. RVD wins WrestleMania and gives the IC title to officials to put in a tourney.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

The first post is absolutely correct.

 

And that is why the WWE sucks.

[Guest GenerationNever]

Beach Brawl is over, BPS. Ashes 2 Ashes is the Vanilla Midgets' next PPV.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

RVD beats Brock, while Brock beats Rock. RVD keeps the IC title, wins the Royal Rumble, faces Brock at WrestleMania. RVD wins WrestleMania and gives the IC title to officials to put in a tourney.

RVD's drawing power has been hurt greatly by bad booking, and he's essentially been shit on too many times to main event soon. Granted, Wrestlemania is a ways off, but the chances of WWE management's faith in him being high enough or RVD's ability to recover from all the damage that's been done are both shaky at best. In other words, a push for him aint happening, and this post is 100% correct in that RVD cannot come out of this looking good and will be made to look like total enhancement talent. Neither man can really afford to lose, but Brock's the one who's been given the task of looking credible against the Rock, and that wins out over salvaging whatever there is left of RVD's drawing power.

 

Lesnar is an unproven draw at this point, to say the least. Even with Rock head-lining the show, it's uncertain whether it will pull a good buy rate. This show will most-likely be the time to "put up or shut up", both in regards to Lesnar's career and the future use of the People's Champion. If Rock wins, the entire Brock experiment will be viewed as a failure and the company will continue to show reliance on a star who really isn't too reliable anymore. If they put Brock over, it has a strong chance of bombing and could be enterpreted as over-kill by WWE fans, driving them away and killing one of their last viable draws in Rock (which isn't even guaranteed these days). Either way, it's a huge setting for disaster, and they've completely booked themselves into a hole here.

 

Either way, Rob is dead in the water. No chance whatsoever. I can only hope I'm wrong.

[Guest Flyboy]

OR 3) Brock beats RVD for the IC Title thanks to Heyman interference. RVD's pissed so the next night on Raw he wants a rematch, but not for the IC Title.. for the SS Title shot. Heyman tries to interfere... backfires, RVD wins.

 

-----

 

That ain't happening, but oh well. Brock going over RVD IS going to happen, I've accepted that.

[Guest TheSmarkzone]

Look, the WWE is obviously hell-bent on getting Brock Lesnar over as the next big thing. So I say...let's just let it go, because we all know how stubborn Vince McMahon is once he gets the idea to make a new star in his head. Whether it be King Mabel or Stone Cold Steve Austin, he sees it through to the bitter end.

 

RVD is unique in that he hasn't been shoved down our throats. He has a natural connection with the fans, and he has achieved that despite his booking situation.

 

So the bottom line is, just let this summer go and let them do what they will with Brock and RVD. Because sooner or later, RVD is going to get so over with the fans that he is going to break through that glass ceiling whether anybody in the front office or the back likes it or not.

 

And when that happens, they will have no choice but to make him the whole f'n show. You can't hold talent down forever, it always rises to the top.

[Guest LesnarLunatic]

I say that RVD should go over at the PPV in a very close match. Then Heyman should send out mercenaries (such as Awesome, Kanyon, Johnny the Bull and O'Haire) out to beat up RVD to avenge Brock's loss.

 

Then, Brock wins the belt at Summerslam, RVD loses the IC title on RAW to Kanyon due to Brock, RVD faces Brock at the Sep. or Oct. PPV for the belt.

[Guest GenerationNever]

Look, the WWE is obviously hell-bent on getting Brock Lesnar over as the next big thing. So I say...let's just let it go, because we all know how stubborn Vince McMahon is once he gets the idea to make a new star in his head. Whether it be King Mabel or Stone Cold Steve Austin, he sees it through to the bitter end.

I agree. Lesnar is getting the shot...LIVE WITH IT, PEOPLE. Almost all of us love RVD, but it would be a cop out for him to win the title shot.

[Guest TheSmarkzone]

Plus, once Rocky gets Lesnar over, Lesnar will be in a better position to get RVD over.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I say that RVD should go over at the PPV in a very close match. Then Heyman should send out mercenaries (such as Awesome, Kanyon, Johnny the Bull and O'Haire) out to beat up RVD to avenge Brock's loss.

 

Then, Brock wins the belt at Summerslam, RVD loses the IC title on RAW to Kanyon due to Brock, RVD faces Brock at the Sep. or Oct. PPV for the belt.

RVD winning and then getting beat up by a bunch of random jobbers is still RVD winning. Lesnar can't afford to lose, not if he's going to be taken seriously against Rock. If he isn't built up right, not only will no one buy the Pay Per View, but a win over Rock will kill him along with the buy rate.

 

Rock may not be around for much longer, but meaningfull jobs are what he needs to be doing. Again, neither man can afford to lose here, and if Brock's the one who actually has to draw money in the future, he needs to go over, bar none.

 

Smarkzone, since when do we have to "let it go" before it happens? Vince will do it regardless, so if I don't like it, I'm sure as hell not going to "let it go" and continue watching, because I don't like it. I haven't just gone and embraced Vince's love for big men before, and I'm not going to do it now, or ever, for that matter.

 

RVD developed a connection with the fans by being diferent, but that doesn't mean he wasn't pushed. He was the only outsider to get a sustained push durring the invasion (unless you consider Austin an outsider) and got pins over just about everyone. The WWE went and un-did pretty much all of that and made the RVD character look like a glorified jobber. So he has been shoved down the fans throats....as midcarder who always loses big matches. Until they re-build him, that perception of him will be planted in the fan's minds, and any pushing they give him now is too little too late.

 

So no, I won't let the summer go, because I don't like the way Lesnar is being used, and I don't like the way RVD is being used. RVD already hit the glass cieling a long time ago, hard; he hit it so hard that his heat and popularity shrank eight sizes, and his chances of even touching it again are slim to none. They've made it clear that the "work so hard they have to push you" philosphy is bull because the result of two months of busting his ass with Eddy resulted in his legs being cut out from under him against Taker and a whole ton of jobs to Lesnar. So no, that won't happen, and no, I don't have to like it.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I agree. Lesnar is getting the shot...LIVE WITH IT, PEOPLE. Almost all of us love RVD, but it would be a cop out for him to win the title shot.

You know, the "when fed shit, eat shit and like it" arguement is as vapid and tiresome as the WWE's product. I don't like the product, and I'm not going to force myself to like it.

[Guest TheSmarkzone]

Then don't. Watch puro or something.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Then don't. Watch puro or something.

Done.

 

 

However, you're missing the point. No one has to "let go" of anything. They can still watch, give criticism, and have valid opinions. Again, becoming complacement with a bad product is not a requirement to be a fan of wrestling, as much as the WWE would like you to think otherwise.

[Guest humongous2002]

Well if RVD losses the IC title at Vengeance, then that will inmediately kill RVD's popularity, and it wouldn't make Brock an instant main eventer because he's been beating RVD so many times that i've lost count. Hopefully RVD retains the belt and gets a shot for the WWE title at SummerSlam, since Lesnar is hardly getting any reactions from the fans.

[Guest TheSmarkzone]

I'm not really saying become complacent or eat shit and like it. IMO, whatever happens isn't gonna be *that* bad. If anything, you guys should be worried about Steph as GM, not whether RVD or Brock goes over. What I was trying to say is, "Feel free to speak up, but nobody's gonna listen in the end."

[Guest NazMistry]

Plus, once Rocky gets Lesnar over, Lesnar will be in a better position to get RVD over.

I doubt that very much.

Despite The Rock's willingness to put people over, there is little or no rub usually. As hard as Rock tries not to, he sucks all the heat out of his opponent.

So Brock going over The Rock so soon into his WWE career will alienate the fans more. Any rub RVD gets off Brock will be little because nobody will care about Brock.

[Guest TheSmarkzone]

He got Jericho over.

[Guest NazMistry]

He got Jericho over.

Not enough for Jericho to stay over through a Austin feud.

[Guest TheSmarkzone]

You mean a HHH feud.

[Guest Kahran Ramsus]

Jericho was exactly like RVD is now. A top midcarder that loses every main event level match he is in.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I'm not really saying become complacent or eat shit and like it. IMO, whatever happens isn't gonna be *that* bad. If anything, you guys should be worried about Steph as GM, not whether RVD or Brock goes over. What I was trying to say is, "Feel free to speak up, but nobody's gonna listen in the end."

Just because someone's opinion goes on deaf ears doesn't mean they can't have an opinion. The internet has no control over anything, it's just a place for people to voice their opinions, and people are going to do that no matter what their influence (or lack, there of).

 

As for Rock "getting people over" then what was the Booker T. program last year, or the Benoit program the year before. Rock did a lot of jobs to Jericho, and their initial feud over the WCW probably could have made a star out of Jericho if continued, but he ended up not giving him nearly the rub to draw as world champion, and that goes along with the rest of his career accordingly. He does jobs, but getting people over is beyond the sphere of his current abilities.

 

And yes, humongus, Brock has already beaten RVD several times and the win won't do anything for him, but he still can't afford a loss. RVD can't afford one either, but when considering that Brock has to become a draw by next month, it is clear why he truly does need the win more than RVD. Anything less would spell death for Summerslam.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

"Well if RVD losses the IC title at Vengeance, then that will inmediately kill RVD's popularity, and it wouldn't make Brock an instant main eventer because he's been beating RVD so many times that i've lost count. "

 

A: RVD isn't going to lose any heat regardless of the outcome. He's not over because he wins.

 

B: How many times has Lesnar beat RVD that you've lost count? That'd be one there champ. At the KOTR. RVD beat Brock the next night on RAW by DQ...and that is all of their Televised singles encounters.

 

 

And Rock putting Brock over will do nothing for him.

 

IF people are upset that Brock beat Rock...well...Rock's leaving isn't going to allow them to hate him for it.

 

He'll get some initial boos...then fans will just resent him for getting pushed so hard.

 

And this will ruin him forever.

[Guest NazMistry]

You mean a HHH feud.

No I mean an Austin feud.

 

By the end of the Austin feud, Jericho had lost most of his heat.

 

THEN, Triple H buried Jericho in their Wrestlemania feud (if you can call it that).

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Jericho was exactly like RVD is now. A top midcarder that loses every main event level match he is in.

Yep. Actually, I'd say they're in the exact same boat right now. Well, they would have been, had the Edge/Jericho feud continued. Jericho has the destinction of being demoted from his enhancement talent possition and has absolultely no role at present.

[Guest TheSmarkzone]

As for Rock "getting people over" then what was the Booker T. program last year, or the Benoit program the year before.

 

I'll answer that it in a snap: did Rocky put Benoit over? No. Did Rocky put Booker over? No. Did Rocky put Jericho over? Yes.

 

You want more rationale?

 

He only feuded with Benoit for a few weeks before it morphed into a four-way feud btw. himself, Benoit, Taker, and Kane. Then Benoit went off to feud with HHH.

 

Same thing with Booker T, he feuded with him just long enough to set up the SummerSlam match, then he had the blow-off match vs. Booker AND Shane at Unforgiven and that was it.

 

Booker and Benoit were transitional feuds.

 

His feud with Jericho was an old-school BLOOD FEUD. It was built masterfully. It started out with some heat over a simple miscommunication, then they did the mutual respect bit, then things got more intense and personal, and then finally Jericho turn full-fledged heel and things got white-hot at the end.

 

It was a slow burn, and it was built over many, many months.

 

And that's why Rocky was able to get Y2J over (until HHH put the sizzle out) and didn't have such a huge effect on Booker or Benoit's heat.

 

All signs point to Rocky putting Brock over, as he did for Y2J but did not do for Booker or Benoit.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I'll answer that it in a snap: did Rocky put Benoit over? No. Did Rocky put Booker over? No. Did Rocky put Jericho over? Yes.

 

You want more rationale?

 

He only feuded with Benoit for a few weeks before it morphed into a four-way feud btw. himself, Benoit, Taker, and Kane. Then Benoit went off to feud with HHH.

 

Same thing with Booker T, he feuded with him just long enough to set up the SummerSlam match, then he had the blow-off match vs. Booker AND Shane at Unforgiven and that was it.

 

Booker and Benoit were transitional feuds.

 

His feud with Jericho was an old-school BLOOD FEUD. It was built masterfully. It started out with some heat over a simple miscommunication, then they did the mutual respect bit, then things got more intense and personal, and then finally Jericho turn full-fledged heel and things got white-hot at the end.

 

It was a slow burn, and it was built over many, many months.

 

And that's why Rocky was able to get Y2J over (until HHH put the sizzle out) and didn't have such a huge effect on Booker or Benoit's heat.

 

All signs point to Rocky putting Brock over, as he did for Y2J but did not do for Booker or Benoit.

I have to disagree. The phantom title change he did for Benoit was as close to being put over as Benoit got in those days, and the fact that Rock did it for him twice says more about your confusion with "put over" than the way you seem to mistake it with doing jobs. His continued feud with Booker lasted longer then the initial Jericho program, which didn't even culminate in a match on more than one consecutive Pay Per View.

 

As for blood feud Vs. transitional, I fail to see the difference between giving Rock something to do until dropping the title to Angle and giving Rock something to do before the Invasion ended. The Jericho program was just as transitional as any feud Rock had been in. It ended, pre-maturly, so the Invasion angle could finally blow off, was re-explored a month later, and ended with a screw job Jericho win, which was what the general WWE idea of "getting him over" was at the time anyway.

 

Your revisionist history of the way Jericho lost his heat holds no value, either. The feud with Rock did peak at some points and produced some exciting television (especially for the time period) but Jericho essentially came out a total chump because he ended up joining back up with Rock when the Invasion ended, lossing all the aura he had built up for sticking it to Rock. After that, the full-fledged heel turn was hardly an instant hit with the fans, as most people disregarded any chances he had of getting somewhere the second he came on screen. The fact that he did get the title doesn't change that his heat was hardly the same, at that point, and by the time he re-visited the feud with Rock, the thrill was gone. The Austin feud proved this, as his ill-fated push against Steve ended in him winning through nWo interferance that he didn't even plan out himself. The HHH feud was the nale in the coffin, but things had begun to stink long before then, and HHH simply used that to his advantage. Anyone else would have done the same.

 

I'd also enjoy some insight into these "signs" that Rock will get it right this time with Lesnar, even though no one has been able to so far. At least Benoit, Booker and Jericho had the destinction of being over at some point before they feuded with Rock, where as Brock doesn't even have any heat to kill to begin with.

[Guest TheSmarkzone]

You can pick it apart if you want to, but the bottom line is that almost everybody nominated The Rock/Y2J for Feud of the Year for 2001. I mean, you got valid points about the phantom Benoit title changes. Hell, Rocky jobbed to Benoit due to Big Show interference as early as January or February of 2000. But Rocky did so much more for Jericho, who he put over like four times between No Mercy and the Royal Rumble. I just don't think that the Benoit or Booker T feuds were even *close* to being as good as the Y2J feud. That feud really captured everybody's imagination.

[Guest HollywoodSpikeJenkins]

What I thought was RVD gives Brock the Van Terminator, which gets RVD DQ'ed. Brock wins, RVD keeps the tite, and Brock moves on to beat Rock at Summerslam.

 

But thats just me....