Discuss Your View Points #3~!~

[Guest Midnight Express83]

THis one isn't as big of a red button as AA and abortion. But here goes. Do you think the ERA should be past. Or better yet: state laws that make women and men equal in the work place and in the shopping world.

 

Fact: For every 65 cents a woman earns. A man gets a buck. Thats doing the SAME job at the same place. Working the same amount of years. Starting at the same time.

 

Fact: For every 5 bucks men spend at dry cleaning, women spend 12. Maybe its the buttons on the different side of the shirt.

 

Fact: The draft only allows men not women. And Women aren't allowed on the front lines. Maybe its the pussy.

 

Fact: women spend atleast 1000 more when they are buying cars. Maybe because they "Can't drive for shit". Or something.

 

Fact: Women pay more for health insurance. Yet women live longer.

 

Fact: Women pay more for car insurance. Yet more car accidents are from teenage male drivers.

 

I say ERA should be past and women should get a fair shake at things. EVERYONE in the country should be based on their talents, not their race or gender.

 

Discuss.

[Guest KoR Fungus]

I think some of your "facts" come from pretty shady statistics.

 

<<<Fact: For every 65 cents a woman earns. A man gets a buck. Thats doing the SAME job at the same place. Working the same amount of years. Starting at the same time.>>>

 

I'm pretty sure that the 65 cents to $1.00 thing is not for everything else being held completely equal. In similar discussions in other places, lots of other people have cited lots of other studies with lots of other results.

 

<<<Fact: For every 5 bucks men spend at dry cleaning, women spend 12. Maybe its the buttons on the different side of the shirt.>>>

 

..... Um... call the feminists! This is too bizarre a statistic to even comment on heh.

 

<<<Fact: The draft only allows men not women. And Women aren't allowed on the front lines. Maybe its the pussy.>>>

 

Not many feminists calling for that to be changed (the draft, anyway).

 

<<<Fact: women spend atleast 1000 more when they are buying cars. Maybe because they "Can't drive for shit". Or something.>>>

 

Maybe they don't bother to negotiate with the salesman, shrug.

 

<<<Fact: Women pay more for health insurance. Yet women live longer.>>>

 

Living longer would have more to do with life insurance than health insurance. Health insurance is determined by health expenses, not length of life. Pregancy is probably pretty expensive.

 

<<<Fact: Women pay more for car insurance. Yet more car accidents are from teenage male drivers.>>>

 

And teenage male drivers pay more than the average for all women, I assume. You're comparing just gender with age and gender. Apples and oranges.

 

Eh, I'm all for gender equality. There's definitely a lot of gender discrimination in the workplace still, but things have been changing for the better, and hopefully they'll continue to do so. None of those statistics really help the case though.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Who the hell wants to be on the front lines in a war? If excluding me from the draft is "gender discrimination," I'm all for it.

[Guest LooseCannon]

I'll preface this by saying that I consider myself a feminist. But to address your points.

 

Fact: For every 65 cents a woman earns. A man gets a buck. Thats doing the SAME job at the same place. Working the same amount of years. Starting at the same time.

Actually that is not what we call a fact. The latest statistic is 85 cents, and it's not comparing men and women working the same job at the same place. It's comparing women in the labor force in general with men in the labor force in general. Men tend to have higher paying jobs than women.

 

Fact: For every 5 bucks men spend at dry cleaning, women spend 12. Maybe its the buttons on the different side of the shirt.

I hadn't heard that one before. But I find it a kinda funny statistic.

 

Fact: The draft only allows men not women. And Women aren't allowed on the front lines. Maybe its the pussy.

This is clear cut discrimintation that is based on and reinforces antiquated stereotypes.

 

Fact: women spend atleast 1000 more when they are buying cars. Maybe because they "Can't drive for shit". Or something.

I hadn't heard this, but it seems like it could reasonably be true. This is probably due latent attitudes toward women during the bargaining process, as well as the likelihood that in the current social construct of what womanhood is, an ability to bargain is not seen as a virtue. I'm not sure what the ERA can do about this.

 

Fact: Women pay more for health insurance. Yet women live longer.

This actually makes sense. We are talking about health insurance, not life insurance. The longer you live, the more medical expenses.

 

Fact: Women pay more for car insurance. Yet more car accidents are from teenage male drivers.

And male teenagers pay more for car insurance than anyone else. When the actuarians set the insurance rates, they think about profit. They don't think about how they can screw over women.

 

I say ERA should be past and women should get a fair shake at things. EVERYONE in the country should be based on their talents, not their race or gender.

 

I'm not sure the ERA is entirely a good idea. There are differences between men and women and there are times when because of these differences they just may not be similarly situated. The difficult thing to figure out is when those are real legitimate biological differences and when they are assumptions based on paternal stereotypes.

 

For example, there was a case where a woman prison guard sued because she was excluded from a "contact" position in an all male prison. A woman's relative ability to maintain order in a male, maximum security penitentiary could be directly reduced by her womanhood. At least that's what the Supreme Court determined. Though one might argue that it's the state's obligation to create an environment where women who are qualified to perform that job are able to do so and aren't excluded because of their sex.

 

Also, statutory rape laws often criminalize intercourse with underage girls, but not underage boys, because the two are not similarly situated. But this seems clearly a paternalistic stereotype to me.

 

That said, it's theoretically possible that situations exist where men and women should be treated differently, and the different treatment based upon those differences isn't necessarily arbitrary and capricious the way racial discrimination is. So I still somewhat lean against the ERA, which would demand identical treatment in all situations, though I am highly skeptical of most of the differences people allege. Most of them are probably a result of centuries of paternalism, and are not true differences.

 

Also, you wanted to write "passed," not past.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Fact: The draft only allows men not women. And Women aren't allowed on the front lines. Maybe its the pussy.

 

This is clear cut discrimintation that is based on and reinforces antiquated stereotypes.

Uh, no, it's a perfectly sensible decision. Women usually don't have the mass and upper body strength to handle the kickback from many so-called "light" infantry weapons. And yes, sex would be a problem as well. As if enough women don't get raped as it is... sure, draft 'em and dump 'em in hostile territory with a bunch of men. Then tell 'em they have to depend on these men to survive. What a brilliant idea.

One of my best friends is a highly-decorated female fighter pilot in the USAF. She has trouble with sexual harassment, and she does her job in a bubble of glass and steel on seventy thousand pounds of pure lethal force. And you want me to sit in a ditch with a bunch of sweaty, stressed-out, barely post-adolescent males? No, thank you.

[Guest chirs3]

Ainsley Hayes, on The West Wing, gave an argument that I kinda agree with. Women are already equal under the eyes of the constitution. The ERA is a redundant and degrading law, because it's going out of its way to say "Women are equal!" when the constitution already acknowledges that they are.

 

No, they aren't treated equally, but I thought it was an interesting point of view. The West Wing rules.

[Guest LooseCannon]

Uh, no, it's a perfectly sensible decision. Women usually don't have the mass and upper body strength to handle the kickback from many so-called "light" infantry weapons. And yes, sex would be a problem as well. As if enough women don't get raped as it is... sure, draft 'em and dump 'em in hostile territory with a bunch of men. Then tell 'em they have to depend on these men to survive. What a brilliant idea.

One of my best friends is a highly-decorated female fighter pilot in the USAF. She has trouble with sexual harassment, and she does her job in a bubble of glass and steel on seventy thousand pounds of pure lethal force. And you want me to sit in a ditch with a bunch of sweaty, stressed-out, barely post-adolescent males? No, thank you.

With respect to mass and upper body strength, while most women would not be able to handle some combat postions, a sizable plurality are capable of serving in some combat related postions. Also there are always administrative positions they can fill, so that someone else can go get shot at.

 

Your point about fearing the sexual aggressions of their male counterparts is a good one, and I don't have an answer that doesn't involve ideal-world pipe-dreaming. I'd suggest a female only draft instead, but your point about female inferiority with respect to upper body strength would trump that.

 

But I'd like to conclude with a quote from Wendy W. Williams' article "The Equality Crisis: Some Reflections on Culture, Courts, and Feminism" because she has been influential in my thinking about the topic.

 

"[To] me, Rostker [posed the question] whether we, like [men], must take the responsibility for deciding whether or not to fight, whether or not to bear the cost of risking our lives, on the one hand, or resisting in the name of peace, on the other. This is one of the circumstances in which the feeling that 'I want what he's got but I don't want to do what he's had to do in order to get it' comes quickly to the surface.

 

And Mackinnon's good for a quote too:

"You get the feeling they might rather end the draft, they might even rather not fight wars at all than have to do it with us."

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Feh. Getting your Constitutional law from a TV show isn't the best idea in the world. The ERA was necessary because the Constitution was limited not to all persons but to all free persons - ie, white males. Women per se may never have been de jure slaves in this country but they certainly were de facto slaves for a long time. Legislation should be enacted on the basis of reality, not wishful thinking and naive reinterpretations.

[Guest chirs3]

I didn't say that's where I got my views. I just said I kinda agree, and it's an interesting point.

 

I don't really have any views.

 

Besides, The West Wing rules.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Yeah, it's a fun show.

[Guest LooseCannon]

Feh. Getting your Constitutional law from a TV show isn't the best idea in the world. The ERA was necessary because the Constitution was limited not to all persons but to all free persons - ie, white males. Women per se may never have been de jure slaves in this country but they certainly were de facto slaves for a long time. Legislation should be enacted on the basis of reality, not wishful thinking and naive reinterpretations.

Well the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, which is what governs here, was never limited to white males in its application. For a time, it was applied by the courts solely with respect to racial classifications, but by the time the ERA was introduced it was being (and still is) applied to any classification based on status. And as far as sex goes, if men and women are not similiarly situated, then the classification must be justified to the same extent a racial classification is. Which seems reasonable. This largely rendered the ERA gratuitous. Sometimes TV shows get things right.

[Guest GenerationNever]

I'm all for women on the front lines, but only women who can handle it. And, yes, men are insane sexual creatures...it's just life. Most men are stronger than women, but that doesn't mean women can't be fierce in combat, notice that I said MOST. While an enemy male or even an enemy female could always force the female's legs behind his/her head and disable the woman, she could escape this with a simple knife.

[Guest DrTom]

Again, anything that tries to artificially equalize results should not be made into law. I'm all for equal opportunity, and for the laws that protect it, but that's as far as anything should go.

 

As for your "facts"...

 

"Fact: For every 65 cents a woman earns. A man gets a buck. Thats doing the SAME job at the same place. Working the same amount of years. Starting at the same time."

 

No it's not. It's an average across many industries. The fact is, men tend toward business and technical degress, while women tend toward liberal arts degrees. Thus, men end up with higher paying jobs because they pursue them from the time they're 18.

 

"Fact: For every 5 bucks men spend at dry cleaning, women spend 12. Maybe its the buttons on the different side of the shirt."

 

Um... maybe most men don't care to have their stuff dry-cleaned as often? Talk about a stupid "statistic."

 

"Fact: The draft only allows men not women. And Women aren't allowed on the front lines. Maybe its the pussy."

 

When women start complaining about this en masse, then it might be an issue. Besides, men are better qualified physically for the demanding nature of front-line combat positions.

 

"Fact: women spend atleast 1000 more when they are buying cars. Maybe because they "Can't drive for shit". Or something."

 

And maybe you can't make a point to save your life. Explain to me how a person's driving skill affects how much they're going to pay for a car? Keep in mind that men often opt for more "spartan" cars, while women prefer creature comforts. Also, there are a lot more men who drive manual transmissions than women, and that's about $700 of your alleged discrepancy right there.

 

"Fact: Women pay more for health insurance. Yet women live longer."

 

How is this difficult to figure out? Women live longer, which means they're in their geriatric years longer than men. Which means they need more hospitalizations, more doctor visits, more specialist visits, more nursing home admittances, etc. Factor in osteoperosis and pregnancy, and I think it's pretty easy to see.

 

"Fact: Women pay more for car insurance. Yet more car accidents are from teenage male drivers."

 

Maybe there's data that shows men past the age of 25 drive better than women of the same age? Insurance rates are always based on statistics, so before you go hurling charges of discrmination all around, maybe you ought to look some of them up.

[Guest GenerationNever]

It seems to me that some(and I emphasise "some")women only want equal rights when it benefits them, but not when it doesn't. Having said that, I don't support the draft in the first place.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

What a blinding revelation.

[Guest EricMM]

I don't even know what the ERA is (I don't watch the west wing?) but I know that Female um situation(?) is very awkward in America.

 

Clearly it's much better than it has been compared to different times and different places. But it still isn't equal at all. And this is not an instance where you can say "serve the majority, protect the minority" because we're EQUAL

 

But it's not really all about numbers. The pay thing is iffy because of things people said. Now if women are being paid less for the same job that's wrong and it has to change. But there are bigger problems. Problems like the pill being non insured but viagra is. Problems like Abortion made illegal, and the rape statistics in America. Problems like more boys than girls are raised into dominant positions and technological and scientific positions than girls are. Look in many school rooms, the boys will speak up and the girls will raise their hands or maybe not speak.

 

At the same time Magazines bombard women with impossible images of themselves.

 

Granted I spent a lot of time chilling with friends who were self professed feminists, but not only were they very very nice people, (and very pretty) but they were also for the most part right.

 

It's not a legal thing it's a societal thing.

 

But please, if there's any way for me to be "descriminated against" by not being draft worthy, sign me up. I really don't want to be forced to go to war at all. Although I'm getting a little old for it, they'd prefer 17 and 18 year olds. All the better to shape you, my dears.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

Hell, most of the time I get in trouble for treating women equal.

 

Whenever they want a box lifted or something that they can do but want someone else to do it, I just say we're all equal and walk away...

[Guest LooseCannon]

Granted I spent a lot of time chilling with friends who were self professed feminists, but not only were they very very nice people, (and very pretty) but they were also for the most part right.

I agree with just about all of your post, but why did you feel it was necessary to tell us that they were pretty? I'm not trying to jump down your throat or anything, but part of the societal problem you speak of, is also that women are taught to measure their self-worth by their appearance.

 

I'm sure it was just a little harmless comment though, and I'm just being a nitpicky bastard.

 

Hell, most of the time I get in trouble for treating women equal.

 

Whenever they want a box lifted or something that they can do but want someone else to do it, I just say we're all equal and walk away...

 

Like no one's heard that joke before... on sitcoms... in 1981.

[Guest EricMM]

I agree with just about all of your post, but why did you feel it was necessary to tell us that they were pretty? I'm not trying to jump down your throat or anything, but part of the societal problem you speak of, is also that women are taught to measure their self-worth by their appearance.

Yeah I know. But I jus wanted to point out that I didn't start hanging out with them because they were feminists at all. Or it could be because I never think before I type Its pretty sad though because neither one of them thought they were particularly pretty. Girls often see the flaws in the mirror and miss the greater (great) whole.

 

Hell, most of the time I get in trouble for treating women equal.

 

Whenever they want a box lifted or something that they can do but want someone else to do it, I just say we're all equal and walk away...

Maybe it's because I'm tall and I'm used to getting stuff for my friends, guys and girls, but what does it help you to not be nice to people? Just last night as I was leaving my work shift my replacement had to get paper for the printer which had run out. They are kept in reams which are in cabinets 7 feet above the ground. I'm sure we both could have gotten it but I didn't have to get on any chairs. There have been multiple posts about women not being as upper body strong as guys. Why then would you want to treat them equally in an area where they are different. Would you slam a door in anyone's face too?

[Guest NoCalMike]

Equal pay for equal work. I agree. How about equal treating on dates, hehehe. Well this is a common practice for me and my gf already, but how do most others handle it? When me and my lady worked the same job making the same amount of cash, we could easily recognize the financial problem it would cause for the same person to pay for dinner/movies EVERYTIME so we usually alternate.

[Guest GenerationNever]

What a blinding revelation.

Yes. I suppose it was.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Yeah, the possibility that people might want good things without bad things had never before occurred to me in my life. Thanks for the world-shattering wisdom and insight.

[Guest GenerationNever]

Yeah, the possibility that people might want good things without bad things had never before occurred to me in my life. Thanks for the world-shattering wisdom and insight.

You're welcome. I always love to share with people to help them better themselves.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

"Like no one's heard that joke before... on sitcoms... in 1981."

 

It's not a joke to me. And I don't care if this position has been mentioned before -- it's my policy. Treat everyone the same.

 

"Maybe it's because I'm tall and I'm used to getting stuff for my friends, guys and girls, but what does it help you to not be nice to people?"

 

I don't go out of my way to slam a door in someone's face (although I've done that before many times), but I also don't kowtow to those chicks that expect me to do all the manual work while they sit back on their lazy asses and collect the same amount of pay I do. And for the record, this scenario doesn't take place at a fast-food joint or Wal-Mart.

[Guest LooseCannon]

"Like no one's heard that joke before... on sitcoms... in 1981."

 

It's not a joke to me. And I don't care if this position has been mentioned before -- it's my policy. Treat everyone the same.

Well, if that's the case, then I'm so very impressed with your principled stand on the issue.

[Guest kkktookmybabyaway]

LOL -- that was a sarcasm bitchslap if I ever felt one...

[Guest TheMikeSC]

<<<THis one isn't as big of a red button as AA and abortion. But here goes. Do you think the ERA should be past.>>>

 

 

No.

 

 

<<<Or better yet: state laws that make women and men equal in the work place and in the shopping world.

 

Fact: For every 65 cents a woman earns. A man gets a buck. Thats doing the SAME job at the same place. Working the same amount of years. Starting at the same time.>>>

 

 

I won't even go into how old this "stat" probably is (1960's maybe?), but a few questions:

 

And how many of the women take time off to have children?

 

How many are willing to sacrifice their family life to pursue a career?

 

Fact is, women are hot-wired to be family-centered. Not ALL women, but most. They have a much harder time sacrificing their personal time than men do---and thus, they are less likely to do so.

 

 

<<<Fact: For every 5 bucks men spend at dry cleaning, women spend 12. Maybe its the buttons on the different side of the shirt.>>>

 

 

Wow, this "stat" just SCREAMS "hypothesization", does it not? But, just for shits and giggles, some possible explanations:

 

Maybe it's that women's clothes tend to be made of more delicate fabric. Maybe it's that women demand cleaner clothes because they notice stains better (an actual proven fact, much to my surprise).

 

 

<<<Fact: The draft only allows men not women. And Women aren't allowed on the front lines. Maybe its the pussy.>>>

 

 

Maybe it's the overall lack of upper body strength. If the military made women hit the same fitness goals as men, almost no woman could ever actually do it. They've learned this lesson in fire departments around the country.

 

The military is NOT a place for social experimentation.

 

 

<<<Fact: women spend atleast 1000 more when they are buying cars. Maybe because they "Can't drive for shit". Or something.>>>

 

 

Maybe it's because they don't know much about cars by and large and are more easily led into poor decisions. Maybe they can't haggle to save their lives.

 

Maybe this stat is made up. A lot of the other ones reek of it.

 

I would love to see the evidence behind this fact.

 

 

<<<Fact: Women pay more for health insurance. Yet women live longer. >>>

 

 

B.S. I WORK at an insurance company (Blue Cross/Blue Shield) and the rates for policies are set in stone. Women pay the exact same for the exact same plan as men.

 

 

<<<Fact: Women pay more for car insurance. Yet more car accidents are from teenage male drivers.>>>

 

 

That is actually factually inaccurate. Teenaged males pay far more than anybody else (including teenaged girls who aren't exactly golden behind the wheel).

 

 

<<<I say ERA should be past and women should get a fair shake at things. EVERYONE in the country should be based on their talents, not their race or gender.>>>

 

 

"And we'll institute quotas to make sure it happens. Heck, Title IX has been such a good idea in hindsight, right?"

-=Mike

[Guest LooseCannon]

LOL -- that was a sarcasm bitchslap if I ever felt one...

 

Atleast it was meant to be a lighthearted and friendly bitchslap.

 

And like I always tell my girlfriends, "I wouldn't have to backhand you, if I didn't think you needed it."

[Guest Some Guy]

Has anyone noticed that over the course of the last century that women are increasingly getting closer and closer to men in pay, treatment, etc.. and that the trend continues on? Eventually things will even out more and more, passing a law to force that only increases the problem.

 

This is just an observation of mine over the last few years. Why would a women not want someone to open the door for them? If someone opens the door for me I say thank you and walk through, I don't say, "I can do it myself!"

Why wouldn't you want someone to help you pick up somehting that you are clearly struggling with? This seams more like stereotypical macho male bullshit than anything else.

Most women don't do this but I have experienced it. I was raised to be respectful of women, in a traditional sense, ie paying for dinner, opening doors, typical stuff like that and I can't undestand why some women wouldn't want to take advantage of being treated nicely. It doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

Women may not have perfectly equal rights in some fileds, but they certainly have favorable treatment in many others. Divorce, retraining orders, criminal punishment (they don't get sentenced as harshly as men for the same crimes), etc... SO the system is kind of give and take there are advantages and disadvantages for both sexes, it's not alway the woman who is a victim.

[Guest big Dante Cruz]

Let's go a step further on teh divorce thing. I'll use me as an example b/c that's how it was presented to me, by a liscensed counselor who has a good deal of legal experience, as well:

 

I'm a fairly big guy (6'2, 6'3/ bt 220 and 230) and a martial artist. On top of that, I have a Scottish Irish background. So, if my wife wanted a divorce, all she had to do was say I hit her. I'm a big guy so it hurt. I'm a martial artist so it wouldn't leave a mark. (WTF? But it's been used many, many times, so he told me) I have a very aggressive background. I can't control the fighting knowledge I have and I would then get ot live in a cardboard box. Hmmmmm, maybe that's extreme, but seems somewhat skewed.