The worst of the worst...

[Guest wolverine]

I've seen the Kobashi stuff from the 95 area as well as the Taue stuff, and if you STILL think the Taue matches are better, you're "touched."

 

And if you still think the Kobashi matches from 1995 are better, you're an idiot.

 

And he had more than ONE watchable singles match. Besides the CC '95 final, he also had great matches with Kobashi (carrying him), Kawada, and Misawa in the league portion. Not to mention his best singles match ever on 9/10/95 with Misawa, totally outworking Kobashi from the month after by having a ****3/4 match. He would then go on to have an excellent ****1/4 TC win over Misawa on 5/24/96, which was followed by the greatest match in All Japan history on 12/6/96 where Taue was the key man in getting storylines from 1996 across.

 

BTW, who the Hell said he ruled in the 80's? He debuted in 1988.

 

Spring 1995-Dec. 1996

 

Taue>Kobashi

 

It's that simple.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

"Taue>Kobashi

 

It's that simple."

 

Well not really. Wrestling is an art form, and, like any art form the appreciation of it is completely subjective. Saying this is like saying that Van Gogh is better than Picasso and leaving no room for individual opinions. It's silly.

[Guest Luke Argyle]

Taue also had a Match with Dr. Death ('96 CC final, I think) that was pretty freaking good for Williams, who I don't dig much at all. I thought that match was better that the Kawada vs. Williams match from April of '94 that a lot of people dig.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

If you watch "EVERY" Kobashi match vs "EVERY" Taue match from 4/95 to 12/96, it is quite clear who the better wrestler is. There is no subjectivity there.......just analyization.

 

If you happen to like Kobashi more, more power to you. I like the 4/96 Doc v Taue more than 3/31/96 Misawa v Kobashi. Is the Doc/Taue match better? No. But I still like it a bit better.

 

Plus, Taue was a star in 12/6/96 which is the best AJPW match ever (6/3/94 being the best singles). If you want to debate that, I will go move to move with any other match.

 

Tim

[Guest RickyChosyu]

While I won't get into an arguement over '90's AJPW, (simply because I've seen very little of it) I think it's ridiculous to say that Misawa was having good matches with everyone, and therfore Taue = part of everyone. Wolverine already posted a comparison between several Kobashi/Misawa matches and Taue/Misawa matches, and said why Taue's were better at the time. If Taue was having better matches with Misawa than Kobashi was, that makes him, without a doubt, one of the top three workers in the company, which deffinately puts Taue head and shoulders above everyone else.

[Guest wolverine]

The weirdest thing is that I remember arguing over this very same topic almost two years ago when I had seen very little AJPW. I was in this argument with someone who kept telling me that Akira Taue was better than Kenta Kobashi and Jun Akiyama in 1995 and I refused to believe him, because I thought Taue was unathletic, slow and plodding from the little that I had seen of him. Kobashi and Akiyama were more my kind of wrestlers--faster paced, with lots of highspots, etc. Well, after watching AJPW's story develop by watching countless tapes, two years later I'm in the exact opposite position. Man, how things change.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

The weirdest thing is that I remember arguing over this very same topic almost two years ago when I had seen very little AJPW. I was in this argument with someone who kept telling me that Akira Taue was better than Kenta Kobashi and Jun Akiyama in 1995 and I refused to believe him, because I thought Taue was unathletic, slow and plodding from the little that I had seen of him. Kobashi and Akiyama were more my kind of wrestlers--faster paced, with lots of highspots, etc. Well, after watching AJPW's story develop by watching countless tapes, two years later I'm in the exact opposite position. Man, how things change.

Well, then I guess you can take comfort in the fact that the point you're arguing will eventually be realized by those who disagree with you now.

 

Or they might just continue liking Kobashi more. You never know.

[Guest Jubuki]

People also probably believe Giant Baba could never have good matches, and the 3/5/69 match against the Destroyer was a case of Beyer carrying Baba "kicking and screaming" to the best match of his life. Those people are also wrong. Taue just all of a sudden started doing the little things to make himself a great worker - see BOTH of the 4/95 matches against Misawa (the draw and the final), and keep in mind, if you hadn't already known, that Misawa had a broken orbital bone every time Taue grinds in a boot or uses Misawa's own facelock on him. Bad, boring, stupid workers don't put in those little touches -- touches that, by the way, are not subjective in the least -- but good workers do.

[Guest red_file]

Bad, boring, stupid workers don't put in those little touches -- touches that, by the way, are not subjective in the least -- but good workers do.

While I realize this is a pointless argument, I'm curious if you understand the meaning of the word subjective. Perhaps the difference between quantitative and qualitative data?

 

Pointless, I know. Call it scratching an itch.

[Guest thefrenchargel]

I hate taue. I will never like taue. His matches suck. He is the most overrated worker in the history of wrestling, and you will never convince me otherwise. call me a shitty fan, say I don't know what I'm talking about, personally i could care less. Taue is Japanese Kane. Name a non-Kawada/Misawa singles match with Taue that was worth a shit, and that match from 96 w/ Williams is wretched. (granted not only because of Akira Kane)

[Guest thefrenchargel]

Taue just all of a sudden started doing the little things to make himself a great worker - see BOTH of the 4/95 matches against Misawa (the draw and the final), and keep in mind, if you hadn't already known, that Misawa had a broken orbital bone every time Taue grinds in a boot or uses Misawa's own facelock on him. Bad, boring, stupid workers don't put in those little touches -- touches that, by the way, are not subjective in the least -- but good workers do.

i'm willing to bet it was Misawa's idea.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

"i'm willing to bet it was Misawa's idea."

 

Of course that's the other thing in this whole pointless argument. The people who like Taue point to little things he did during his good matches, but we have no way of knowing if he did that off his own back, or if his opponent told him to do it. He may just be the most carryable worker ever.

[Guest Tim Cooke]

Taue singles matches that are better than ANY Shawn Michaels matches ever or any Ric Flair 1990's matches:

 

4/95 v Misawa (CC League)

4/95 v Kawada (CC League)

4/95 v Kobashi (CC League)

4/95 v Misawa (CC Final)

9/95 v Misawa

- a match where Misawa let a more confident Taue work twice as much of the match than he did back in the CC final.

 

Hating Taue and backing it up with some details is one thing......just saying he is the Kane of Japan is another.

 

Do you watch the matches with your eyes open or closed?

 

Tim

[Guest Black Tiger]

ALL of those matches are against Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi. All three of them are great carriers. I can't comment on the matches themselves since I haven't seen any of them. But I've seen wrestlers like Yoshihiro Takayama get carried to great matches by Misawa so that doesn't really impress me that much.

 

If those matches were vs wrestlers like Takao Omori, Jun Akiyama, Yoshinari Ogawa, Tamon Honda, Johnny Ace, etc I'd be WAY more impressed.

[Guest wolverine]

But I've seen wrestlers like Yoshihiro Takayama get carried to great matches by Misawa so that doesn't really impress me that much.

 

"One of these is not like the others." You really should see the AJ matches, since talking about NOAH matches in the same breath is an apples and oranges comparison.

 

If those matches were vs wrestlers like Takao Omori, Jun Akiyama, Yoshinari Ogawa, Tamon Honda, Johnny Ace, etc I'd be WAY more impressed.

 

And if you saw Taue on 1/24/95 like some of us have, I think you'd be impressed regardless.

[Guest Jubuki]

Then why don't you try watching the matches and giving some real input instead of speaking from a stance of ignorance like all the other dumbfucks here? Those of us who have watched the matches and followed the Misawa & Partner vs. Kawada & Taue story, in singles and tags, from the beginning to its climax, from June of '93 to December of '96, watched Taue become a great worker. Contrary to popular belief round here, Misawa can't tell Taue to sell a certain way. Misawa can't carry enough to make Taue work with Akiyama as well as he did in May, July, & December, especially when it's hit-you-over-the-head obvious in the 1996 tags leading up to 12/6/96 that Akiyama is deferring at all times to Taue & Kawada to carry the match.

 

By the way - I'd also like to know what 'great' matches Misawa & Takayama have had together - the only one I saw was around the 'good' range, and Takayama was pulling his weight in that one. But, there I go again saying a big, lumbering ox isn't a terrible performer...

[Guest wolverine]

I watched 12/6/96 again yesterday, and once again I saw Taue turning in an *AWESOME* performance. This is something that really has to be seen before anyone makes comments on Taue's work. As good as he was getting in 1995, nothing compares to this.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

People also probably believe Giant Baba could never have good matches

 

He sucked too

 

Anybody can have a good match. I don't think anyone truly beleives Taue didn't have some great matches, but i think its fair to say that Taue was carried to those great macthes.

[Guest wolverine]

Anybody can have a good match. I don't think anyone truly beleives Taue didn't have some great matches, but i think its fair to say that Taue was carried to those great macthes.

 

I really don't know why Chris, Tim or myself even bother with this stuff. They are TELLING you plain and simple that the guy wasn't being carried. Either watch the matches or read their posts more carefully.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

I have seen the Misawa V Taue CC95 match, and I thought he was being carried, although i haven't seen it in a while.

 

If Taue wasn't carried to great matches, he would look very good against anyone, and he didn't, he looked great against the top guys.

 

IMO (only my opinion!) Taue was slow,plodding and about as graceful as a dead moose, he had some excellent matches against some excellent wrestlers, and overall he was a decent wrestler, now he sucks.

 

Which was the whole point of this thread, the fact that some people don't like things about puroresu, and no amount of arguing will change that.

[Guest wolverine]

I have seen the Misawa V Taue CC95 match, and I thought he was being carried.

 

Case in point. No further explaination necessary.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

I said I hadn't seen it in ages, so maybe i remember wrong or whatever.

 

You are missing the point of the whole fuckin thread. People post what they don't like about puro. Thats it. Then you and Jubuki decide to say its wrong. If someone doesn't like Taue then thats fine, but you feel you know better (which is not true, as this is wrestling, and everyones opinions are different) and decide to argue, again, and again. Its clear the argument is goin nowhere so leave it. Some people like Taue, some dont.

[Guest wolverine]

I said I hadn't seen it in ages, so maybe i remember wrong or whatever.

 

No, you're missing the point. We say watch the matches. You say, "I have seen Misawa vs. Taue CC 95."

 

Well, I've seen:

 

Taue vs. Kobashi 3/21/95

Taue vs. Kawada 4/8/95

Taue vs. Misawa 4/12/95

Taue vs. Misawa 4/15/95

Taue vs. Misawa 9/10/95

Taue vs. Misawa 5/24/96

 

And so on. This doesn't even include other matches, like Taue vs. Kobashi 7/24/95, where Taue is trying his best to carry Kobashi, who was at his goofiest self.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

You are missing the point of the whole topic.

 

I have seen many Taue matches, the only one I have seen of his "Great matches" is the CC95 final, and that was ages ago. For the last time, from what i have seen, i think Taue is a decent wrestler.

[Guest wolverine]

Yeah, if all I had seen of Taue was everything before 3/95, except for the Misawa Carny Final, I wouldn't think much of him either. EXCEPT I'VE SEEN ALL OF THOSE OTHER MATCHES, AND MORE, LOTS MORE.

 

Thank you.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Exactly.

 

Taue (apparently) had a period where he was really good. But before and after that period i haven't been that impressed. Unlike some on this board, i won't comment on what i haven't seen. So, from what i have seen Taue is decent, no more. Maybe my opinion will change over time. We shall see.

 

For the time being, I think you need to accept that some people don't like Taue.

[Guest J*ingus]

Why do you guys insist that "this guy is GREAT, and if you disagree, you're plain WRONG!"? This isn't an exact science. It isn't an algebra problem, with only one answer. It's wrestling. A performance ART. And the whole point of art is that it's completely subjective. What one person likes is different from what another person likes.

[Guest PlatypusFool]

Thank you Jingus, lets all try and remember that wrestling IS subjective, no matter what 'facts' people come up with.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Why do you guys insist that "this guy is GREAT, and if you disagree, you're plain WRONG!"? This isn't an exact science. It isn't an algebra problem, with only one answer. It's wrestling. A performance ART. And the whole point of art is that it's completely subjective. What one person likes is different from what another person likes.

Couldn't agree more.

 

I tried to explain that but...

[Guest Downhome]

*sigh*, what happened to this thread? I don't check it out for a while and I return to find such asinine comments like...

 

And you were/are still WRONG. Maybe I should just have "Did you WATCH the match?" in my signature.

 

...and...

 

And if you still think the Kobashi matches from 1995 are better, you're an idiot.

 

...is it too hard for some to be able to simply give their opinions, while also being able to take other peoples opinions as just that, opinions? If you see my thread in NHB about just what IS a troll, well, those two kinds of comments that I just quoted above, well...

 

...those, THOSE are "troll poop", sure fire signs of a troll, if there ever has been one. Grow up, learn to discuss a topic without getting bent out of shape when someone doesn't agree with you, or just go away.

 

Sincerely,

...Downhome...

 

(By the way, I love Taue. The only "great" matches that I have ever seen him have however were against Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, and the other more famous guys of that sort. So in the end, perhaps it isn't that I so much love Taue, as I love the guys he fights. I have many, many matches of Taue, and most are good, but they are against the same people for the most part. One I have is against Vader, for the Tripple Crown, and it isn't that great of a match. Both of the guys just seemed to clash, and there were MANY blown spots and just plain out ugly exchanges. So that goes that much further I suppose for the side of Taue not being that great on his own, as a stand alone performer.)