The worst of the worst...

[Guest BionicRedneck]

I actually agree 100% with everything Downhome just said from his "troll" comments to the stuff on Taue.

 

although, that is a paticularly bad Taue match against Vader. They both had an "off" night.

[Guest Downhome]

I actually agree 100% with everything Downhome just said from his "troll" comments to the stuff on Taue.

 

although, that is a paticularly bad Taue match against Vader. They both had an "off" night.

An "off" night? I don't even know if I'd be that nice to the both of them. The match was just horrible, one of the worst I've ever seen either of them work.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Why do you guys insist that "this guy is GREAT, and if you disagree, you're plain WRONG!"? This isn't an exact science. It isn't an algebra problem, with only one answer. It's wrestling. A performance ART. And the whole point of art is that it's completely subjective. What one person likes is different from what another person likes.

 

Yeah, and in order to judge an artist, you should see all of his work. Obviously, many people saying they dislike Taue haven't seen all of his work, and are thus, unjustified in saying he's a bad worker. If you said "from what I've seen of Taue, he's not very good" that would be fine -- Chris, Tim, and Wolverine would probably just tell you "hey, check out these matches with him, they're pretty good!" and that would be it -- but that's not at all what the people here are saying. They're saying things like "Taue is the most over-rated wresters ever" without backing up that statement at all and that is fucking ridiculous.

 

Do you see people saying "Leonardo Divinci SUCKS and no one can convince me otherwise" when they've only seen two of his paintings? No, and that's why Chris was justified in calling many people here idiots, because that's what they are.

 

Wolverine compared match for match Taue's matches Vs. Akiyama and Kobashi's matches, and gave examples as to why Taue was superior. Did anyone bother to argue these points? No, they assumed Taue was being carried, even though wolverine also gives examples where Taue is carrying Akiyama and Kobashi. Does anyone bother to argue this? Of course not, because they haven't seen the matches, and they know they can't prove him wrong, so they respond with ignorance. Anyone can have an opinion. I could say "I think George W. Buch is horrible President" but people would still want to know why. If I were to respond with "I don't know, I just think he's stupid" people would think I was a fucking idiot, and this case is no different. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you don't have to back it up with facts.

 

You see, people don't like being told that they are wrong. Tim, Chris, and wolverine tell you their opinions, back them up with examples, and the people refuse to listen. When they get frustrated, the people call them "elitists" as if knowing what you're talking about is some form of arrogance.

 

There's nothing wrong with having your own opinion. There is something wrong with passing judgement without the proper knowledge to do so, and everyone they've been arguing with is guily of that. Shit, Bionic Redneck told Wolverine that he had seen one of Taue's matches, thought he was being carried, and Wolverine simply let it go. If that doesn't prove that they just want you guys to know what you're talking about before you say something I don't know what is.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

All the way through i said "from what i have seen" Taue ain't that good.

 

Tim, Chris, and wolverine tell you their opinions, back them up with examples, and the people refuse to listen. When they get frustrated,.

 

The only one who presented any examples to change my mind was Wolverine.

 

Jubuki simply said "your wrong" over and over.

 

Bionic Redneck told Wolverine that he had seen one of Taue's matches

 

I told him i had only seen one Taue match from his "Great Match" period,and (admitted I could be wrong, as i hadn't seen it in ages) said i thought Taue's performance wasn't great. Its just my opinion, wether its "wrong" or "right".

[Guest Black Tiger]

Anybody can have a good match.

In that respect, does that mean that whoever has a good match is a good worker? I've seen plenty of terrible workers in great matches.

 

The only good match I've seen Taue in was a 1991 tag match. It was Misawa/Kawada vs Jumbo/Taue. The crowd heat was through the roof and I'm sure it impacted my thoughts of the match, but Taue also spent most of the time on the apron since Misawa vs Jumbo was the big feud at the time.

 

In contrast I look at the 1992 RWTL Finals when Taue was paired with Rookie Jun Akiyama and had to supply the match flow and the match IMO was terrible.

 

I also want to say thanks to Wolverine for looking at my post and offering alternitives to it instead of making snide comments like Jubuki.

[Guest Downhome]

I still don't understand why some people just can't take other peoples opinions. If I don't like whoever, that's because I don't personally like them or think they are that great. It doesn't mean that you don't think think, just that it's my opinion.

 

Hell, some may not like Benoit or may not think he is that great as it just may not "click" with them and their liking. When someone says they don't like Benoit I don't shoot off that they are wrong just because I think otherwise, and I don't see why others can't be more like that.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Tim, Chris, or Wolverine, help me out here.

 

I just read the reviews of all the Taue matches in the 1995 Champions Carnival on Pegasus Kid's website. I know that reading a review isn't the same as seeing the match but that's not my point.

 

Taue's matches with Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi, were all ranked **** or higher, they were all super stiff and Taue was generaly beating the living shit out of them.

 

Taue's match with Jun Akiyama, who was only a three year pro at the time was only ranked at about **1/2 and was seen as a major disapointment. Taue didn't go into the match looking to leave Akiyama laying crumpled and injured.

 

This tells me that Taue was either being carried by the more expericenced wrestlers or that he was instructed by Baba to go super stiff on them and Baba instructed Misawa, Kobashi, and Kawada to sell like crazy and make Taue out to be a trillion yen.

 

Can you offer any insight?

[Guest Downhome]

Tim, Chris, or Wolverine, help me out here.

 

I just read the reviews of all the Taue matches in the 1995 Champions Carnival on Pegasus Kid's website. I know that reading a review isn't the same as seeing the match but that's not my point.

 

Taue's matches with Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi, were all ranked **** or higher, they were all super stiff and Taue was generaly beating the living shit out of them.

 

Taue's match with Jun Akiyama, who was only a three year pro at the time was only ranked at about **1/2 and was seen as a major disapointment. Taue didn't go into the match looking to leave Akiyama laying crumpled and injured.

 

This tells me that Taue was either being carried by the more expericenced wrestlers or that he was instructed by Baba to go super stiff on them and Baba instructed Misawa, Kobashi, and Kawada to sell like crazy and make Taue out to be a trillion yen.

 

Can you offer any insight?

Hush you! Don't you know that you can't make ANY type of conclusion unless you have seen every single one of his matches!?

[Guest deadbeater]

How about Hulk Hogan? Yeah, that Blond Godzilla Hogan, not the carcass we see here in the States and Canada. Kane is now doing some of the moveset Hogan did in Japan.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

All the way through i said "from what i have seen" Taue ain't that good.

 

And what happened? Wolverine refered you to better matches of Taue's, why he is good, and left it alone. I'm failing to see your point here.

 

The only one who presented any examples to change my mind was Wolverine. Jubuki simply said "your wrong" over and over.

 

No, he said you hadn't seen enough matches to pass judgement. I would tend to agree, since it takes more than one match to get a feel for someone's quality as a wrestler from a given time period.

 

I still don't understand why some people just can't take other peoples opinions. If I don't like whoever, that's because I don't personally like them or think they are that great. It doesn't mean that you don't think think, just that it's my opinion.

 

Look, repitition seems to be a popular trend in this thread, but let me say it again: Chris, Tim, and Wolverine have seen the matches where they found him to be a good worker. It's unfair to pass judgement before looking at all angles, and it's even more ridiculous to assume things without knowing all the facts. Opinions are fine, ill-founded ones are not.

 

Hell, some may not like Benoit or may not think he is that great as it just may not "click" with them and their liking. When someone says they don't like Benoit I don't shoot off that they are wrong just because I think otherwise, and I don't see why others can't be more like that.

 

Anyone can have an opinion, but unless it's actually founded on something, what's the point? If someone doesn't like Benoit, they should at least have the sense to listen to others explain why he is quite good, and consider the possibility that he actually is a good wrestler, just as everyone should have with Taue. Instead we got guys saying "he was just carried anyway" with no proof behind their statements. How was he carried? Do you have any proof that "Misawa told him to sell like that" as one person put it? In what matches from the period was Kobashi better? If you don't want to go watch the matches that Chris, Tim, and Wolverine bring up for a true understanding of their arguement, then fine, but don't go on assuming that you're right just because you don't feel like actually proving them wrong by giving their opinion a chance, and attempting to counter it.

 

When there comes a person who just says "no, I don't have any proof, but I still think you're wrong anyway" then it has nothing to do with whether that person "percieves" Taue to be a bad worker or not and everything to do with that person being ignorant and refusing to accept other's opinions. Simple as that.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

I'm failing to see your point here

 

My point is, I never said "Taue Sucks" or anything like that, so i do appreciate Wolverine's post, about what i should watch ect. I have seen quite a lot of Taue matches, just obviously not the right ones.

 

No, he said you hadn't seen enough matches to pass judgement

 

No, he didn't. Why can't I pass judgement on the bit of Taue that I have seen? I'm not saying he's shit, but i can say, from what i have seen etc.

 

And the main point of the thread was "what do you hate in Puro?". So, rightly or wrongly some people hate Taue, what business is that of anyone else? You don't need to see every Taue match to dislike him, just like i'm sure a lot of people hate Tiger Jeet Singh, without watching all his matches. The issue isn't Taue is good/bad worker at all, so its a pretty pointless argument.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

My point is, I never said "Taue Sucks" or anything like that, so i do appreciate Wolverine's post, about what i should watch ect. I have seen quite a lot of Taue matches, just obviously not the right ones.

 

No, he said you hadn't seen enough matches to pass judgement

 

No, he didn't. Why can't I pass judgement on the bit of Taue that I have seen? I'm not saying he's shit, but i can say, from what i have seen etc.

 

And the main point of the thread was "what do you hate in Puro?". So, rightly or wrongly some people hate Taue, what business is that of anyone else? You don't need to see every Taue match to dislike him, just like i'm sure a lot of people hate Tiger Jeet Singh, without watching all his matches. The issue isn't Taue is good/bad worker at all, so its a pretty pointless argument.

And I never accused you of saying that, either. When I say "some people" I'm refering to the others on this thread who felt that they didn't need to listen to what anyone else said on the matter and then accused them of being stupid.

 

Umm, did he not say something along the lines of "we say 'watch the matches' you say 'I've seen one match"? That seems like he was trying to tell you to watch more before you judge.

 

Well, this isn't the first time a thread has drifted off topic, and it sure as hell won't be the last. What started as "who's the worst to watch?" turned into "was Taue ever a good worker?" and according to those who have watched a ton of AJPW, he was. No, you don't have to watch every match to be able to like or dislike a worker, but that's not the point they were trying to make at all. Wolverine said himself, for a long time Taue was better than both Kobashi and Akiyama, and even though you seemed quite willing to listen, few others were.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

And I never accused you of saying that, either. When I say "some people" I'm refering to the others on this thread who felt that they didn't need to listen to what anyone else said on the matter and then accused them of being stupid.

 

I agree, there were some people who were just looking for an argument, saying stuff like "Taue is the Japanese Kane".

 

Umm, did he not say something along the lines of "we say 'watch the matches' you say 'I've seen one match"? That seems like he was trying to tell you to watch more before you judge.

 

Wolverine said that. I was talking about Jubuki.

 

and no one here was willing listen to his arguements about the issue.

 

Probably because it isnt the issue. They don't like Taue, and probly never will, whatever evidence is put forward.