The I Hate Shaq Club!

[Guest Eraser2K2]

Shaquille O'Neal...what a bastard.  The very mention of his name makes me sick.  I dont see whats so great about him.  All he does is make 3 foot hook shots, fouls anything moving on the other team (and sometimes things from his team), and misses half his free throws.  MVP my ass.  Take Shaq off that team, make it Kobe's, and the Lakers win the title again.  Anyone else agree with me?  Disagree?

[Guest jimmy no nose]

I disagree.  Shaq plays his own style of basketball and if it works he should stick with it.  Obviously it is as he has been among the top players in points per game each of the past few seasons and has been almost unstoppable in most games.  There have been many great players who played a similar style to Shaq(ex. Wilt Chamberlain) and they are considered great players, the only thing different about Shaq is that he's the only player doing it now.

[Guest Below the Glass Ceiling]

You can say all those things about Shaq being one-dimensional....BUT...he still scores nearly 30 points per game and dominates it like no other player in the NBA can.

 

And actually, I'll even argue the fact that Kobe can carry the Lakers by himself.  In games without Shaq, the Lakers are pedestrian 8-6 (or something close like that).

[Guest arejay]

Similar to another topic on this board, Its all the bandwagon jumpers who make me dislike the Lakers. The same fans who cheered for Chicago back in the 90's are cheering for the Lakers now.  If anything that is what makes me root for the other team.  But I cheer for the underdog most of the time anyway.   But in Shaq's favor, the Lakers are a slightly above average team without him. Sacramento, Dallas, and probably even the heartless Spurs would most likely beat LA in a 7 game series without Shaquille.  With him, the third ring is coming.  Once the playoffs get here, they'll just flip 'the switch' and go on another run like last year.

[Guest El Hijo Del Lunatic]

Shaquille O'Neal...what a bastard.  The very mention of his name makes me sick.  I dont see whats so great about him.  

 Shaq is the coolest.  Dominant, outgoing, pretty much likable, eccentric without being completely crazy.  He's basically everything you want in a marquee star for your league.

 

All he does is make 3 foot hook shots...

He dunks a lot too.  People use this argument about Shaq all the time, saying he can't score from outside ten feet.  So what?  He's a center.  Centers are supposed to attack and defend the paint.  They're not supposed to bomb up threes from all over God's creation.  

 

...fouls anything moving on the other team (and sometimes things from his team)...

My God, you sound like a Sixers fan circa April of 2001. He's a big dude, and a physical player.  Does he bang around in the middle?  Yeah.  Is that because he's a hacker or because he's a dirty player?  No.  It's because he's bigger than everybody.  That shouldn't be held against him.  And yes, there are games where he gets away with stuff he shouldn't, but there are games when the refs are all over him.  It evens out.

 

... and misses half his free throws.

Wilt Chamberlain shot 54% from the free throw line for his 14 year career.  He didn't suck.

 

MVP my ass.  Take Shaq off that team, make it Kobe's, and the Lakers win the title again.

Possibly.  Without Shaq, they're one of the top eight teams in the NBA, but the Lakers struggle with teams like Sacramento, Dallas, and Milwaukee - teams that run, gun, and shoot the trey well.  WITH Shaq, they have an easier time of it, because feeding the big man in the middle not only exploits a weakness in the opponent, it also kills the uptempo game that the Kings, Mavs, and Bucks want to play.  Without Shaq, they could; with Shaq, they should.  That's different.

[Guest Redhawk]

While Shaq was out with injuries, the Lakers have lost to Memphis, Chicago (twice), and some other pretty crappy teams. I'd say he's pretty valuable.

 

And like El Hijo said, he's not supposed to be taking 15-foot jumpers. He averages 25-30 points per game shooting from within 5 feet, so who cares? If he were on your favorite team you'd love him.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Shaq is the best player in the NBA. He carried the LAkers on his back in the Finals last year. I don't like how people think you should abandon someone once they start to get a little bit of success. I liked Shaq when he first came into the league just lik everybody else, and I like him now as well. I'm no Lakers fan, but I often wonder why everybody turned on Shaq. He's a funny guy with a big heart who at times shows that he's human. I like how genuine Shaq is without being a jerk, which is a refreshing change from everybody else in the league.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

The man dominates like no other. Sure he's not flashy like Iverson, or Garnett but so what 2 rings don't lie.

 

He's the last of a dieing breed...the NBA Center.

[Guest Jericholic82]

I agree that he is a great player, but I dont personally like the guy.  No one complains about the lakers buying multiple championships.  but one player alone cannot win titles in most sports but in basketball it seems the oppsoite is true (ex jordan, shaq).  I hate living in cali sometimes cuz of these morons.

[Guest Choken One]

I've said this a Million times...You don't buy CHAMPIONSHIPS! GodDamn it! first Yankee Haters and now Laker haters. You buy pieces and you mesh them together and you create a winning fourmula.

 

 Buying the Championship would mean Mark Cuban or whoever else owner walks up to David Stern's office and plops down $200 million dollars on the table and Stern hands him the Trophy.

[Guest Army Eye]

Shaq is an effective player but a remarkably unskilled one.  His entire game consists of throwing elbows and missing foul shots.

[Guest Eraser2K2]

Thank you, Army Eye!  Shaq is not the "best player in the league."  He isn't even in the top 100.  He keeps getting fatter and fatter, and worse and worse at shooting.  He is a horrible player.  He's only effective because of the amount of fouls he commits.  He commits a foul on every possession.  But the rule book interpretation is so messed up now, he doesn't get called.

 

The reason the Lakers are so lackluster without Shaq is because they are used to playing with him.  If they were to start out the year as Kobe's team, with Shaq playing second (third, maybe fourth..I'd like fifth) fiddle, the Lakers would be much more dominant, and would not be playing so shitty.  

 

When someone says "bought a championship," they obviously don't mean it literally.  They mean it figuratively, and the Yankees figuratively bought those three straight championships, and seem to have bought this upcoming one.

[Guest jimmy no nose]

No one complains about the lakers buying multiple championships.  

You know that the NBA has a salary cap, right?  The cap makes it pretty hard to buy a championship because every team has to stay under a certain amount of money that they pay their players.  Baseball is another story.

[Guest El Hijo Del Lunatic]

Time to BRING THE REBUTTAL~!

 

I agree that he is a great player, but I dont personally like the guy.  No one complains about the lakers buying multiple championships.  but one player alone cannot win titles in most sports but in basketball it seems the oppsoite is true (ex jordan, shaq).  I hate living in cali sometimes cuz of these morons.

I don't think the Lakers have bought these championships.  Do they pay Shaq an exorbitant amount of money?  Yeah.  How about Kobe?  Sure.  But this is Shaq's sixth year with the Lake Show.  It's not as if Kobe and Shaq both signed multi-gazillion dollars contracts in 2000, then went and tore everyone a new asshole.  It's not like the Lakers threw shitloads of cash at Mitch Richmond, either - he took a BIIIG paycut to play there.  Besides, if you COULD buy championships, we'd all be bowing down to the gods of Portland.  

 

Shaq is an effective player but a remarkably unskilled one.  His entire game consists of throwing elbows and missing foul shots.

His entire game consists of a bit more than that.  He's a great shot-blocker, an above-average passer from the 5 spot, an excellent rebounder on both ends of the floor, an unstoppable force on the low block, and a player that, for such an "unskilled one", turns the ball over relatively infrequently - around 2.5 TO's a game for his career, compared with 18 shots per game (that's a lotta touches).  You'd think he'd be bouncing his ball off his foot a lot more if he were so damn clumsy.

 

Thank you, Army Eye!  Shaq is not the "best player in the league."  He isn't even in the top 100.  He keeps getting fatter and fatter, and worse and worse at shooting.

Actually, he's leading the league in field goal percentage, shooting just over 57%, and he has been shooting over 57% since 1997.  As for his weight, he wasn't exactly Reggie Miller when he came in the league.  He's always been that big, and he's always been in danger of tipping at 350, from the time he was in Orlando to now.

 

He is a horrible player.  He's only effective because of the amount of fouls he commits.  He commits a foul on every possession.  But the rule book interpretation is so messed up now, he doesn't get called.

I'm glad you're not afraid to BRING THE WHINE~!  Look, some nights, Shaq gets away with stuff.  There were a couple of games in the NBA Finals last year where got got away with a couple.  But there's the flipside to it, when the refs CLAMP DOWN on Shaq and handicap him beyond all recognition - take Game 4 of the Finals (IIRC), when Mutombo forced two of the cheapest fouls I saw during those playoffs to foul him out.  And he's the only marquee guy the refs will do that to.  

 

The reason the Lakers are so lackluster without Shaq is because they are used to playing with him.  If they were to start out the year as Kobe's team, with Shaq playing second (third, maybe fourth..I'd like fifth) fiddle, the Lakers would be much more dominant, and would not be playing so shitty.  

Except for the murderings they'd take at the hands of Sacramento, Portland, Utah, San Antonio, and every other team that relies on their 4 and 5 positions to score 30 ppg.  Let's not start making shit up - you think the Lakers would be MORE DOMINANT over time starting Mark Madsen at the 5 and Samaki Walker at the 4?  They'd get outrebounded by 15 every game, and HAVE BEEN without Shaq in the lineup this year.  Keep talking like that, and I'll take your crackpipe for good.

 

Side note:  Kobe tried to take over in the second half yesterday, and Boston came back from double digits down to win.  Shaq only took 2 shots the entire second half against a Celtic team with ... who at center?  

 

I've said this a Million times...You don't buy CHAMPIONSHIPS! GodDamn it! first Yankee Haters and now Laker haters. You buy pieces and you mesh them together and you create a winning fourmula.

The reason I buy into some of that "Yankees buying a championship" talk is because of the way they go about their business.  It just seems like they manage to get the best free agent available for any need they ever have, and really aren't afraid to pay for it.  This isn't about Giambi, but this is about something like taking on David Justice's salary to DH periodically mid-season, or, better yet, picking up Jose Canseco's contract to essentially pinch-hit.  They have a strong nucleus of very good homegrown talent to work around, great coaching, and mystique; but when they don't have what they need, they go get it.  ALWAYS.  They never settle, ever.

[Guest Eraser2K2]

Good post, but of course, I disagree.

 

Actually, he's leading the league in field goal percentage, shooting just over 57%, and he has been shooting over 57% since 1997.  As for his weight, he wasn't exactly Reggie Miller when he came in the league.  He's always been that big, and he's always been in danger of tipping at 350, from the time he was in Orlando to now.

 

I could make 57% of those shots too.  Dunking and doing layups takes about the skill of a really tall second grader.  And actually no, Shaq was a little over 300 entering the league.  He was pretty skinny (for him) in Orlando.  350 is way too big anyway.

 

I'm glad you're not afraid to BRING THE WHINE!

 

I don't quite see how its "whining" when Sports Illustrated even does a story on it.  Am I saying he's dirty?  No.  But just about every trip down the floor, hes doing something illegal that isn't called anymore.

 

Side note:  Kobe tried to take over in the second half yesterday, and Boston came back from double digits down to win.  Shaq only took 2 shots the entire second half against a Celtic team with ... who at center?

 

Its hard to beat a good Celtics team when Paul Pierce scores 33 and Antoine Walker scores 30.  Besides, Im not sure Kobe Bryant decides when Shaq gets the ball and when he doesn't.  I wish he did.

 

By saying "have Shaq play second fiddle," that doesn't mean have him sit on the end of the bench and let Mark Madsen start.  That means let the offense revolve around Kobe, not Shaq, consistently, and see what happens.  Besides, if Shaq were traded or didn't play for the Lakers, Mark Madsen would not be the starting center.

 

And as for the Yankees, I agree.  Thats exactly what "buying championships" means.  Not literally, of course.

[Guest DrTom]

"Shaq is not the "best player in the league."  He isn't even in the top 100."

 

I've never been a huge Shaq fan, but that has to be one of the stupidest things I've seen in a long time.  He might not be the most skilled player in the league, but he's a good in-close shooter and his free-throw shooting has improved the past couple years.  As a center, it's his job to get the ball on the inside and score.  Thus, he makes the shots he ought to make.  He's also a good rebounder on both ends of the court.  

 

If you really don't think Shaq is in the top 100 players in the league, then name 100 who are better.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I wish people would stop talking about buying championships. Perhaps that's possible in video games, but that just doesn't happen in sports. The Yankees could go out and snatch up whoever they want, but the whole has to be greater than the sum of the parts. As quiet as it's kept, Joe Torre has a lot to do with the success of the Yankees. You can't just throw together a team of high paid players and expect them to win. Look at the Dolphins in 1995 (they went after every free agent they could get their hands on, the Houston Rockets (with Drexler, Barkley and Olajuwon), the Blazers during the past three years, the Lakers without Phil Jackson (they didn't win a championship until Jackson joined the team as head coach) and any other "super team" that hasn't won the big one. For all of the Yankee haters that were ecstatic when the Yankees lost the World Series because they "buy championships," look at the Diamondbacks roster. I think that the idea of "buying championships" is an idea that  is perpetuated by the malcontents who watch other teams get the job done in the front office, while their team loses.

 

 

I could make 57% of those shots too.  Dunking and doing layups takes about the skill of a really tall second grader.  And actually no, Shaq was a little over 300 entering the league.  He was pretty skinny (for him) in Orlando.  350 is way too big anyway.

 

If you think you could shoot 57% in the NBA seven feet or not, you are delusional. If Shaq is leading the league in field goal percentage, that means nobody else is converting as high of a percentage of field goals as him. Are you implying that the rest of the league is comprised of players with no more skill than a tall second grader? On what grounds do you comment about Shaq's weight? If the man wants to weigh 350 and win championships and dominate the league, I say let the man weigh 350.

I don't quite see how its "whining" when Sports Illustrated even does a story on it.  Am I saying he's dirty?  No.  But just about every trip down the floor, hes doing something illegal that isn't called anymore.

So you need Sports Illustrated to tell you what to think? The people that write those stories are peopple with opinions just like you and me. It is just circumstance that the person who wrote the story about Shaq that you are citing had a bias against Shaq, or maybe just felt Shaq was getting away with stuff. What is it exactly that Shaq does that is illegal?

[Guest Ripper]

I won't say that Shaq sucks because he is indeed one of the most talented players in the league...BUT.... My problem with Shaq is that he seldom plays the game of basketball.  

 

Guys like Garnett, Iverson, and others go out every night and play the game within the rules and dominate.  Shaq domination is due to the fact that his primary offensive moves are illegal and he is allowed to get away with it.  If you want to see a picture perfect offensive foul, watch him hard dribble and LOWER HIS SHOULDER and SLAM INTO THE DEFENSIVE PLAYERS CHEST to make room and then take the shot, wide open.  Or when he rises his elbows, uses on to push the guy out the way and throw the hook shot.  Or his put my hand on your shoulder and hold you down while I dunk "move"(although alot in all fairness alot of players use this one) He is not playing within the rules at all, and it isn't his fault.  I blame the officials for not enforcing it.  Now when they do, he and his coach whines and moans about it, like they are getting a raw deal.  

 

Every other player in the league will get that called against them(except for a couple of other superstars like Malone, but even he doesn't do things like that routinly as Shaq.) but Shaq is allowed and their excuse is that it is happening because he is so big.

 

If you tell Garnett they won't call Travel on him any more, or tell Jason Kidd they won't inforce the out of bounds line on him, they would be so amazingly dominiet.....but that doesn't happen.  They have to follow ALL of the rules of the game.  Shaq has indirectly been told that the offensive foul rules don't apply to him, which is why he is SO dominant(don't get me wrong, I think he would be a dominent player anyway, but not as dominant)

 

The reason I don't like him is because of incidents like The brad Miller thing or his little tirade on Mutumbo(calling him whiney and afraid to play him after the officials called the game CORRECTLY in game one of the finals and didn't like getting offensive fouls called on him). Shaq has chosen to play the most agressive, physical game in the league, yet he bitches and moans about getting fould hard?  No one could stop Olajawan on the block, but you never saw him getting fouled hard.  You know why?  Because he didn't play the alam into the offensive player game that Shaq plays.  If you want to dish out punishment and the defensive player can't even get a fair shake, he should be prepared to take the hard foul.

[Guest Eraser2K2]

I totally agree with Ripper.  Its obviously not Shaq's fault he doesn't get called for the fouls.  Its the referees, and ultimately the NBA's fault.  If the rules were enforced equally on him, he wouldn't be in consideration for MVP.

 

If you think you could shoot 57% in the NBA seven feet or not, you are delusional.

 

Actually, as a very competitive basketball player myself, I can make 57% of my layups, and when the rim is lowered (I've got the "white man" disease), I can make my dunks too.  It really isn't that hard.

 

On what grounds do you comment about Shaq's weight? If the man wants to weigh 350 and win championships and dominate the league, I say let the man weigh 350.

 

Im not the only one to comment on his weight.  Basketball experts talked about it a lot before the season started, and playing basketball at 350 isn't exactly healthy.

 

So you need Sports Illustrated to tell you what to think?  The people that write those stories are peopple with opinions just like you and me.

 

Sports Illustrated writers are not like you and me.  They don't just write stories on whatever they feel like (except Rick Reilly and Steve Rushin).  SI writers go into stories unbiased, and have to present both sides of the story with facts.  Its simple journalism, something Im very familiar with.  The Shaq story was just that.

 

He might not be the most skilled player in the league, but he's a good in-close shooter and his free-throw shooting has improved the past couple years.

 

No actually, his free throw percentage has went down, and leveled off somewhat at around 50-54%.

 

Naming 100 people who are better basketball players would take a long time, and it would be a waste of time.  Are there 100 more dominant players?  No, but thats not my point.  Just about any point guard or shooting guard has many more skills than Shaq, as do the new small forwards and power forwards in the league.  Its common sense.

[Guest Vern Gagne]

Anyone that thinks the Lakers could win without Shaq is kidding themselves. Besides Kobe the rest of the team are role players, Shaq's presence inside frees up Rick Fox, and Derek Fisher. Kobe Bryant's a great player, but Shaq makes the other players on the team better.

[Guest El Hijo Del Lunatic]

Ugh.  DROPPIN THE REBUTTAL~!

 

I could make 57% of those shots too.  Dunking and doing layups takes about the skill of a really tall second grader.

Yeah, if you play against other second graders.  But Shaq is playing against guys that are tall enough to contest his shot.  And again, I ask the question:  why should he step back and take fifteen footers when he can take a five-footer?  There's no reason to.  A shot from 15 is worth as many as a shot from 2.  And if Shaq can get himself in position to shoot close to the basket consistently, shouldn't he do that?  Logic says that the closer you get to the basket, the better your chance of making that shot.  You can't hold the fact that he gets excellent inside positioning against him.

 

Its hard to beat a good Celtics team when Paul Pierce scores 33 and Antoine Walker scores 30.  Besides, Im not sure Kobe Bryant decides when Shaq gets the ball and when he doesn't.  I wish he did.

Actually, Bryant brings the ball down on a regular basis, and because he and D-Fish (or Hunter) are the ballhandlers, it's their job to get Shaq touches.  They start with the ball, so they have to distribute it accordingly.  Shaq shot 10 times that game, and made 9 of them; Bryant went 11-25.  Someone decided Kobe should take 15 more shots than Shaq; I'm betting it was Kobe.  I doubt it was Phil, and I doubt it was Shaq.

 

By saying "have Shaq play second fiddle," that doesn't mean have him sit on the end of the bench and let Mark Madsen start.  That means let the offense revolve around Kobe, not Shaq, consistently, and see what happens.  Besides, if Shaq were traded or didn't play for the Lakers, Mark Madsen would not be the starting center.

That's been shown not to work.  Kobe can't handle the entire offense by himself, and he tends to be selfish when Shaq isn't the focus.  When Shaq IS the focus, defenses collapse; and since Shaq is a good passer, Kobe, Fisher, Horry, Hunter, Shaw, and Fox are all able to get good spot-up long-range looks.  Without Shaq, they struggle in the frontcourt (because there ain't much talent there outside of him) and they struggle in the backcourt (because defenses can essentially box and one Kobe with no problem).  

 

I wish people would stop talking about buying championships. Perhaps that's possible in video games, but that just doesn't happen in sports. The Yankees could go out and snatch up whoever they want, but the whole has to be greater than the sum of the parts. As quiet as it's kept, Joe Torre has a lot to do with the success of the Yankees.

Oh, I agree with you to a very well-defined point.  Joe Torre is a great manager, an NL manager with the luxury of a DH.  He hit-and-runs, plays the right guys at the right time, bunts, has EVERYONE steal, deals with ego; it's a lot of fun to watch what he does.  But this isn't really about Joe Torre.  It's more about Steinbrenner.  It just bothers me that the Yankees can pay an exorbitant amount of money to a Darren Bragg to pinch-hit and back up at DH.  They're not afraid to pay above market value to get the players they want.  They're very smart about the players they want (good-natured, bright, team players), but they're always players other teams would want, too.  And I can't remember someone who passed up the Yankees for somewhere else since, Jack McDowell maybe?

 

No actually, his free throw percentage has went down, and leveled off somewhat at around 50-54%.

It was, however, under 50% his last two years in Orlando.  

 

El Hijo Del Lunatic apologizes to Eraser2K2.  Because in comparison, Ripper's BRINGING MORE THAN ENOUGH WHINE FOR EVERYBODY~!

 

Guys like Garnett, Iverson, and others go out every night and play the game within the rules and dominate.  Shaq domination is due to the fact that his primary offensive moves are illegal and he is allowed to get away with it.

El Hijo Del Lunatic makes the jerk-off motion with his hand.  

 

If you want to see a picture perfect offensive foul, watch him hard dribble and LOWER HIS SHOULDER and SLAM INTO THE DEFENSIVE PLAYERS CHEST to make room and then take the shot, wide open.

You see, it's called "backing down" a player.  Everybody does it, and shockingly enough, it's not illegal.  The problem is that when Shaq does it, you know it, because he's NATURALLY STRONGER than everyone else.  It's no different than the post-up games everyone else uses, except they're not strong enough to move people like that legally.

 

Or when he rises his elbows, uses on to push the guy out the way and throw the hook shot.

Uh, that's how you shoot a hook shot:  

Look at Kareem's front arm.  Where is it?  Oh, out in front, so anyone who jumps to contest the shot takes one in the face.

 

Or his put my hand on your shoulder and hold you down while I dunk "move" (although alot in all fairness alot of players use this one)

Yup, everyone does that.

 

He is not playing within the rules at all, and it isn't his fault.  I blame the officials for not enforcing it.  Now when they do, he and his coach whines and moans about it, like they are getting a raw deal.

Well, the referees should be consistent.  They are, after all, consistent for just about everyone.  You can't touch Michael Jordan no matter where he is; if Iverson drives and there's contact, it'll always be defensive; you can't screen Reggie Miller without fouling because of his flops; Karl Malone can put his knee in someone else's face on a running shot.  Every marquee star gets consistent officiating EXCEPT Shaq.  If he was able to do what you claim is so illegal consistently, no one would bitch, or chalk it up to, "well, he's allowed to get away with it" like people do with Jordan, Iverson, Miller, and Malone - even though those four get just as much of a break as Shaq does.  It's just, refs don't know how to handle Shaq - they don't know whether he's just THAT strong or whether he's doing something illegal.  That's why Shaq can get shit on in games 1 and 4 of the Finals, and get away with murder in games 2 and 3.

 

The reason I don't like him is because of incidents like The brad Miller thing ...

I'll get to that.

... or his little tirade on Mutumbo(calling him whiney and afraid to play him after the officials called the game CORRECTLY in game one of the finals and didn't like getting offensive fouls called on him).

You're right, except then Mutombo went out and flopped his way through Game 4.  

 

Shaq has chosen to play the most agressive, physical game in the league, yet he bitches and moans about getting fould hard?

Ok, Shaq's not really bitching about the hard fouls with the Miller incident, because people have been fouling Shaq hard for years.  But the Bulls (Miller in particular) beat the ever-loving shit out of Shaq.  This isn't just the fouling; every rebound, someone has an elbow stuck in Shaq's ribs or had a foot on Shaq's ailing big toe.  He had to take cheap shots all game (since Cartwright's been there, the Bulls have played that way), and was obviously frustrated by that.  If that was regular straight-up Hack-a-Shaq, he wouldn't have taken a swing at Miller.  But that game was WAAAY out of hand before that.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I see Eraser2k2 has admitted to being delusional.

 

If you think you could shoot 57% in the NBA seven feet or not, you are delusional.

Actually, as a very competitive basketball player myself, I can make 57% of my layups, and when the rim is lowered (I've got the "white man" disease), I can make my dunks too.  It really isn't that hard.

 

Shaq is leading the league in FG percentage, which means nobody else in the NBA is doing what he is doing. You are trying to tell me that you could lead the NBA in FG percentage? The NBA isn't high school intramurals. You are going a little too far with your Shaq hating son.

 

 

Im not the only one to comment on his weight.  Basketball experts talked about it a lot before the season started, and playing basketball at 350 isn't exactly healthy.

 

That's great except for the fact that you are not a basketball expert. You might like to think you are, just like you think you could lead the league in FG percentage. As far as Shaq being 350, remember that he's 7'2. You are talking about him like he is morbidly obese. I would say he was slightly over weight if it was affecting his performance, but based on the results he has gotten the last two years, it is not.

 

I'm still waiting to hear what flagrant infractions Shaq commits all the time.

[Guest Ripper]

What Shaq does in the post is not backing down.  

 

I have been playing basketball for nearly 17 years now, ex high school star (played arguabley the greastest game ever...oh yeah I'm all Bundy, Polk High on this one) and trained to be a official.  

 

Now listen, backing down requires your BACK to be turned to the defender.  If you turn to your side, lower your shoulder and slam in to the defender(IOW intiate the contact)  to create space to get your shot off, it is a offensive foul.  Everytime.  This is one of Shaqs PRIMARY offensive moves...it is illegal.

 

And for the picture of the hook shot up there.  Yes, his forearm is there to prevent the defender from coming in, but this isn't what Shaq does.  He takes both hands and cluth the ball hard.  He then takes one of his extended elbows, hits the defender in the shoulder and uses his strength to push them out the way on a spin, thus leaving him open.  It is a great move but there is only one problem, its illegal.  It is the equivilant to extending your arm and physically moving a guy so you can get a layup.  This is once again a picture perfect example of a offensive foul.  Using a body part as a deterent is perfectly legal.  People don't want to get in Malones way when he has his Knee up, but they can if they want to.  It isn't stopping them from defending the shot, it is just a deterant.  If you are preventing the defender from defending you through physical means, it is a offensive foul.

 

What Shaq does wonderfully is pass out the post, handle the ball very well when he faces up, move without the ball, and has a nice hook shot inside.  But my problem is that when he gets lazy, the Lakers are in trouble, or the defensive player is just doing a great job, he goes to the illegal offence.  

 

And to the Brad Miller/Shaq thing, that was a bunch of crap....I watched the game(NBA LEAGE PASS BABY) and he was getting wrapped up hard by and pulled.  Annoying yes, but there was noway he was going to get injured through it.  he was being played tough and he didn't like it.  So he takes on Brad Miller(who had been putting the most acceptable the fouls on him but wanted to go after him because he thought he might be the weakest) and forearms him in the face after a earlier foul(he came across the lane and miller wrapped him up...that's IT.) and tries to punch him in the back of the head later because Charles Oakley fouled him hard (?).  There is nothing manly or slightly likeable about crap like that.  I can't believe that anyone that can call themselves a fan could justify some thing like that.  Especially Laker fans that were mad at Chris Childs for the combo he gave Kobe for throwing a elbow in his face and shoving him...but its OK for Shaq to try and kill a guy for wraping him up or his teamate fouling him hard(Miller wraped him, Oakley Hacked him).  Yeah right.

[Guest Eraser2K2]

I'm not delusional.  Really.

 

Shaq is leading the league in FG percentage, which means nobody else in the NBA is doing what he is doing. You are trying to tell me that you could lead the NBA in FG percentage? The NBA isn't high school intramurals. You are going a little too far with your Shaq hating son.

 

I don't think I've gone too far yet; believe me, I've had some big tirades about Shaq.  But what Im saying by comparing myself to him and being able to make 57% of my shots, is that its not that hard to make that many 3 footers and dunks at the NBA level when you are that big.  Some have used the argument that he shoots well to say he is a good player, when in fact he doesn't shoot hard shots.  I agree, I'd keep doing it to, but if the rules were called the way they should be, his shots wouldn't be so uncontested.

 

That's great except for the fact that you are not a basketball expert.

 

Never said I was.  By saying that basketball experts discuss it, that means Im not making it up out of thin air.  My arguments have a basis to it.  Not saying that nobody else does, either.

 

I still disagree about Kobe.  The role players currently on the Lakers are built for a Shaq led team.  Not a Kobe led team.  If the Lakers worked to acquire role players for a Kobe-led team, they would be much better.  Kobe won't be selfish if he feels his teammates will make the shot as much as he will.  And I agree with him.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I don't think I've gone too far yet; believe me, I've had some big tirades about Shaq.  But what Im saying by comparing myself to him and being able to make 57% of my shots, is that its not that hard to make that many 3 footers and dunks at the NBA level when you are that big.  Some have used the argument that he shoots well to say he is a good player, when in fact he doesn't shoot hard shots.

 

I don't care if you've had big tirades, the fact of the matter is that yyou're delusional. You are basically saying that the NBA is full of players who can't make easy shots, since Shaq is the only person shooting 57% in the NBA. Now you are just making dumb comments for the sake of bashing Shaq.

 

And to the Brad Miller/Shaq thing, that was a bunch of crap....I watched the game(NBA LEAGE PASS BABY) and he was getting wrapped up hard by and pulled.  Annoying yes, but there was noway he was going to get injured through it.  he was being played tough and he didn't like it.  So he takes on Brad Miller(who had been putting the most acceptable the fouls on him but wanted to go after him because he thought he might be the weakest) and forearms him in the face after a earlier foul(he came across the lane and miller wrapped him up...that's IT

 

I saw the same footage that you saw, and I believe that Shaq wasn't being played tough, they were cheap shotting him and chopping his arms when he went to receive a pass. Do people have to get a gun and shoot Shaq for him to feel cheap shotted?

 

I can't believe that anyone that can call themselves a fan could justify some thing like that.  Especially Laker fans that were mad at Chris Childs for the combo he gave Kobe for throwing a elbow in his face and shoving him...but its OK for Shaq to try and kill a guy for wraping him up or his teamate fouling him hard(Miller wraped him, Oakley Hacked him).  Yeah right.

 

Shaq didn't try to kill him, he tried to kick his ass. Shaq didn't pull a knife on the guy. Shaq didn't brandish a grenade. Brad Miller's jersey got wrapped around his neck was removed.

[Guest Jericholic82]

I agree with some of you.  I am a Yanks fan and constantly have to hear this talk.  But I just try and ignore it.  And it is true, the sum has to be better than the parts.  Steinbrenner has a lot of money to throw around so he does, it's business. It may suck sometimes, but it is a business.  Even if he doesn;t sing or trade this year, the Ynakees will probably be back in the series, simply becuase they know how to win, the nucleaus I mean.  Most of the Yanks best players are homegrown farm prospects.  They get paid that much cuz they are offered it.  Jeter loves to play in NY and accepted much less then AROD got to basically do nothing just becuase he is loyal to his team and city.    

 

You cannot buy a title, but you can get some help when you need it (provided you have the cash) and besides what do you think was the real reason Giambi signed? The same reason Clemens agreed to be traded, they want the RING, not the cash.          

 

The closest thing we had to a title being bought was the 97 Marlins, the next year they were all gone.  It was like they rented good players for a year.  The D-backs are very similar they shelled out what they had and got a title, but theyll probably never win another series.  

 

Since I am a true NYY fan, it hurt me dearly to see them lose.  I understand that others were happy. Good for you.

But at least I see you respect their talent so much that you aren't declaring them "over" like many announcers did in the playoffs last year (especially after falling 2-0 to Oakland).

 

I just don't know what to say.

 

But don't worry, shaq and kobe will leave town after jackson decides to quit again. unfortunately it may mean a few more titles for them.  But I don't care cuz I'm not a basketball fan.

 

Good thread!

[Guest Ripper]

Dude, if you punch a guy full force in the back of the head, chance are you are going to kill him.  If you are 7'2 , 350 lbs and can bench press well over 400 lbs and you punch a guy in the back of the head without him even knowing you are approaching, you are going to kill him(or best case scenario, paralize and put the guy in a coma).  He tried to kill him.  If that happens in public and a cop sees it, the DA CAN actually charge you with attempted murder along with assault.  But in the NBA it only equals a 3 game suspension.  

 

If Shaq, the Lakers, Laker fans, the NBA, and everyone else hadden't tried to make it look like the guy throwing the punch was the victim, then I wouldn't say anything about it, but yes he does need to get critizes for not acknowledging that it was his fault.  It was everyone elses in the leagues fault(from the officaials to the other players for fouling him).

 

I still don't hate the guy...I just don't have respect for him anymore.  He has changed from the hardworking guy that would go out and bust his ass to get a NBA championship, team players, to being this big whiney, everyone is fouling me, we lost because the team didn't get me the ball, this fuy should stop falling back when I ram in his chest spoiled crybaby.  The shaq that went to the finals with Orlando and the one that won a championship against the Pacers is gone.  The Big Primadonna is here now and doesn't look like he is going anywhere.

[Guest Daredevil21]

hey andy (eraser2k2) this is jake.  You just need to give it up.  The lakers need shaq to win.  And ive played basketball with you many times and you make maybe 45% of your layups so dont act like your mr. basketball star. Remember the tail bone injury, did that come from you getting hung on a dunk and falling on your ass?

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Dude, if you punch a guy full force in the back of the head, chance are you are going to kill him.

 

What kind of power do you possess? You could kill somebody if you punched them in the back of the head? Now if Shaq tries to punch someone, he is a murderer? The guy just can't win.

[Guest El Hijo Del Lunatic]

This is getting to large for cut-and-paste.  So, UNSPECIFIC REBUTTAL~!

 

On the physiology of Shaq:

Now Ripper's trying to describe Shaq's up-and-under move, apparently.  He's relatively accurate, and from the way that he describes it, it most certainly is an offensive foul - with the exception of one thing.  Nine times out of ten, the defender is in the air when Shaq ducks down.  See, Shaq throws a quick shoulder or ball fake away from the paint, as if he's going for a baseline hook (which has to be respected), and THEN goes under.  Now, the move doesn't usually get the defender ten feet in the air or anything, but more often than not it gets him off his feet enough so that when Shaq creates contact, the defender is in no position to take an offensive foul.  When the offensive foul is called, it's usually on the hard dribble / shoulder fake combination.  That's when most defenders do their flops, and it's really not the right time.  You have to let Shaq have the baseline hook and flop on the up-and-under.  Nobody does that consistenly, because Shaq's hook is a threat too.  As far as the hook shot is concerned, what Ripper's now saying is that "Shaq clears out with his lead elbow before taking the hook shot".  How do you know that's not incidental contact?  Other centers will turn and face elbows first; it's easier to protect the ball that way.  Only thing is, when Shaq does it, people move.  It's his advantage because of his strength, and you can't just randomly start calling it a foul because everyone else is smaller.  Again, you're trying to handicap Shaq because of his strength, not because what he does is illegal.  

 

On Kobe's team:

Eraser, you're saying that if the Lakers got rid of Shaq, and then made the team Kobe's and then surrounded him with complimentary players, they'd win?  Of course they'd win.  They'd be built that way.  But now we're getting into completely changing not only the entire philosophy of the team, but about 2/3 of their roster as well.  how many players on the current roster would still be on a Kobe-led team?  Fisher and Fox, probably.  You can't keep Madsen and Walker; they can't score or play the 5 defensively.  You can't keep Horry; he doesn't rebound well enough.  You can't keep any of the other spot shooters around, either, because they're not good at getting their own looks, something that would have to happen without a big man to kick it out to them.  Sure, they COULD do it without Shaq, but it'd take years and a complete franchise overhaul.  You're nuts if you think THAT'S the right way to go.

 

On why I buy into SOME of the "buying championships" hype:

I have great respect for the Yankees, their farm system, and their coaching staff.  I think they've got a core nucleus of very good homegrown talent (though, in all seriousness, only Jeter and Pettitte are really "marquee" homegrown players).  And I've also said I have no problem with the Yankees signing Giambi to a marquee-type deal, because Giambi deserves a marquee-type deal.  However, they DO overpay big-time for people like middle relievers, back-up DH's, platoon players, and pinch-hitters.  They're important parts of any championship run, to be sure, but realistically they never have to worry about getting that pinch-hitter they need, because they can afford to spend exorbitant amounts of money there.  Hell, Scott Rolen will probably end up in pinstripes next year (if the Phils don't deal him outright); and that won't have any bearing on "buying" anything.  Why?  Rolen's good enough to be paid the big bucks, and should go somewhere that will pay him.  But when you're paying role-players more money than entire organizations pay their everyday players, there's a problem.  It's not really with the Yankees organization, it's with major league baseball in general.  Things like that shouldn't be allowed.  It's not allowed in football, where there's a hard salary cap, and as a result teams stay competitive.  Last year, 2/3 of NFL teams went 7-9 or better.  21 teams had a reasonable shot at 12 playoffs slots.  In basketball, they have a soft salary cap, making it POSSIBLE to buy a championship if you're lucky injury-wise, willing to pay another $50 million in luxury taxes and creatively use weapons like veteran exceptions and the "injured list".  

 

On Shaq's fist vs. the back of Brad Miller's head:

Don't be so melodramatic, Rip.  Obviously, Shaq wasn't trying to end Brad Miller's life, and it's silly to think that he was.  What I continue to say (and pinnacle's backing me up here) is that there was a lot of extracurriculars attached to that Bulls/Lakers game.  It wasn't JUST Hack-a-Shaq.  If it was, Shaq would've handled himself professionally.  The Bulls are now notorious for playing very physical, almost dirty, away from the ball; now that Miller and Artest are in Indiana, Eastern Conference GM's are making comparisons between them and the old Bad Boys (with Miller taking the Bill Laimbeer role).  That's how they play in Chicago now - Bill Cartwright basketball.  Soft, they ain't.  And that's the way they played Shaq that game.  He was obviously flustered and frustrated, but it was from a constant stream of elbows, jabs, shots to the ribs, bumps, and bruises the Bulls (Miller in particular) were throwing behind the ref's back, away from the ball.  Sure, they'd foul Shaq the way you're supposed to foul Shaq, but then they'd nail him a few times for good measure when the ref wasn't looking.  That's what made Shaq flip out like that.  I can't defend Shaq throwing a punch at somebody, but I will say that the game got WAAAY out of hand, and with a quicker whistle (on both sides), that ugly situation could've been prevented.  I can't defend him throwing a punch, but I can see why he was so damn pissed off.  Think about what I'm saying, see if something clicks in your head, and tell me if, as an "official", a game you'd officiated or watched had gotten out of hand because you didn't blow the whistle enough early.  

 

 

On Shaq's "whining":

-     "... everyone is fouling me"

There's a team defense named after and designed specifically for Shaquille O'Neal, which consists of fouling him every time he gets the ball.  He's actually been pretty good-natured about the whole thing, as long as the team playing him isn't trying to get away with shit on the side.

-     "... we lost because the team didn't get me the ball"

It's Shaq's team.  You have to realize that team is built around an inside-outside game.  The triangle offense is built for inside-outside stuff.  But the inside-outside strategy doesn't work unless you get the ball inside consistenly.  He has a bit of a point.

-     "... this guy should stop falling back when I ram in his chest"

People are going to flop, but it's part of Shaq's mental game.  He's working the refs and pissing off his opponents.  When he said that Mutombo was flopping, Mutombo played poorly in games 2 and 3 of the Finals last year.  I hate to draw Mohammed Ali comparisons, but Ali would talk all kinds of stuff in press conferences, all designed to screw with his opponent's head.  Sometimes, he is whining, but it's for a purpose other than simply "whining".