Old Issue, but let's clarify all this with RVD

[Guest Just call me Dan]

I just want to know for all of you claiming he is held down, please justify this.

 

ECW RVD: Same character, got a lot of high profile matches, never held the world title.  Solid opponents and good run in the high mid card. Occasionally he would main event PPVs and such and he went back and forth.  He was never really pushed as the Number 1.

 

WWF RVD: Started off low on the card. Got ver quick and in a big way.  Went to high mid card and occasionally got the big matches with Rock, Austin, Angle, Taker, etc.  never had the world title. WWF felt they pushed him too hard too quickly.  Now he is rising at a nice pace. Soon to be a strong IC Chmapion like most WWF superstars of today were groomed.  

 

What they hell are all of your complaints?  He is on the way, but there is an overcrowded main event scene.  Sure I really enjoy RVD too, but it's BS what you al argue.

 

Misused? No

Underpushed? No

 

His push is not constant instead of being pushed way too hard, too fast.  He works better and puts on more enjoyable matches than some of those top guys, but that is just life.

 

Have patience please.

[Guest Lifeless joe]

RVD is being treated just about everyone under the main event line (minus Jericho) is being treated: wishy-washy. Almost every wrestler in the mid-card to upper mid-card level are getting pushed, then depushed, then pushed, then depushed. Its like a rollarcoaster for the almost-but-not-quite-superstars.

[Guest suckfreecomix]

The problems seem to lie in two areas:

 

1.  With how over he got...the WWF has jumped on less and pushed alot harder.  When HHH came back (and his pop couldn't hold) I think it pissed alot of people off that HHH got pushed to the top and RVD curtain jerked.

 

2.  The Hogan double standard.

 

Here's what people say about Hogan:  Who cares if his in ring work sucks...he has so much charisma and is so over...that it's a big event when he wrestles.

 

On RVD:  Who cares how over he is..his in ring work sucks.

 

 

Here's my take:  HHH shouldn't have been pushed to the top until they were sure he could deliver the goods.

 

RVD should have been given at least some kind of direstion based on the crowd reactions.

[Guest Just call me Dan]

crappy spelling there:

Last paragraph should say his push is NOW constant

 

You can tell the others, sorry for rushing.

[Guest Just call me Dan]

HHH delivered in my opinion.  He is not living up to all that now, the ring rust and bulk are killing his workrate.

 

But, HHH can't be just thrown aside.  He will be given time to shape up.  If he sucks real bad, he'll eventually have that taken away from him.

 

Classic example: Paul wight.  even with Vince's big man fetish, Wight was depushed hard after lackluster performances over and over.  He didn't do bad most of the time and then pull off something decent or acceptable (Undertaker) he sucked all around.

 

If HHH continues ( not including Raw this week)  it will go noticed.  He made it, and that is his spot.  He deserves the chance.

 

RVD has direction, he is headed up, just not lightning fast.  Jericho has battled with that since he has been a part of the WWF and even RIGHT up until his quick World Title push.

 

It happens.

 

What if RVD was a heel?  If Kurt Angle was always ahead of him even though RVD was more over would he be "holding down" RVD?

 

RVD is on his way, but things change and the bookig sucks right now.  The booking team flops things around and swaps angles and pairs together boring feuds.  their faults can equal RVD's depush.  why not blame them instead of HHH?

[Guest CoreyLazarus416]

The rule always seems to be this:

If a wrestler is over, and there is a wrestler higher on the card that is either just as over or not as over by a little bit, or I don't like the wrestler higher on the card, the lower-carder is being held down.

[Guest Brian]

Oh come on people. You kid yourselves when you think Vince cares what the fans think. There's a system in place, and it's always been there. People earn their spot before getting to the main event, with the exception of the Rock who was too much of an overall package for Vince to not push. It'll always be there, it's not about politics. Do you think anyone would ever get pushed of there were that kind of politics? It's nieve and childish to think someone can escape that. Glass ceiling? More like a traffic on a one lane road. You only have one way to go but you can't get there any faster than whoever ahead of you moves. And there's only one way to go, and it's Vince's way. And the system has a purpose. Vince doesn't want to have too many people in the upper-card (because these people gain when they move up). He doesn't wnat too many people sitting in on meetings. He doesn't want to weaken his second tier, his JTTS. He doesn't want people with big heads. And he wants to make sure what people put on the table can hold water over time. Hey, it's not perfect, and it's probably not the greatest, but it works fine.

[Guest goodhelmet]

"There's a system in place, and it's always been there."

 

This system hasn't always been there. It was put in place after the Cliq debacle and lockerroom unrest.

 

"People earn their spot before getting to the main event, with the exception of the Rock who was too much of an overall package for Vince to not push"

 

Um, no. Rock was pushed regardless of what the fans wanted, esp. when they were lacking talent (blue chipper anyone). The fans reaction required Rock's heel turn. Vince pushes who he wants to and Rock's package had nothing to do with it. People don't earn their spot. Vince gives it to them. Did Hall, Nash, and Hogan earn their spot after two days back?

 

"it's not about politics. Do you think anyone would ever get pushed of there were that kind of politics? "

 

It's all about politics, everywhere. And the masters of ass      kissing and politics keep their positions or get put in a position they don't deserve.Wrestling has more nepotism than any other business. What did steph or Shane do to earn their spot?

 

"And there's only one way to go, and it's Vince's way"

 

Agreed, which negates your view that people earn their spot.

 

"And he wants to make sure what people put on the table can hold water over time. Hey, it's not perfect, and it's probably not the greatest, but it works fine."

 

In order for these midcarders to "hold water" wouldn't that mean they receive a solid push where they don't have to return "jobs" to keep credibility in the fans eyes thus killing their heat whereas the "win one, lose one" mentality does not help build credible future main eventers.

The system doesn't work fine. The writers don't devote enough time to midcard angles, put them in meaningless feuds and the crowd's apathy illustrates that. When your top heel(HHH) gets injured and your top face (Rock)films a movie and business decreases because you have no credible main eventers, that's the fault of Vince and the writers. New talent always needs to be developed. We admit that wrestling is a cyclical business, well the talent needs to be cycled out and new stars developed. If not, when your old stars go, you have a bunch of midcarders trying to carry the torch that noone lit for them. The end result is WCW. Not building future talent is just bad for business. Vince has the most talent ever at his disposal and he's pissing it away.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

I don't care if RVD is being held back or not since I don't like him anyway. He can stay buried in the undercard for all I care.

[Guest goodhelmet]

It's not just about RVD (although he is the most popular), it's aboutputting midcarders in reasonable, compelling storylines, not angles that are for the writers amusement (Hurricane, Christian's tantrums.If Christian wants to throw tantrums, watch Jericho in 97 and see how it's done.) IT's about Booker, Edge, RVD, Storm, Benoit, whoever. Give the midcard guys a chance to get over and see if the WWF capitalizes on it. Instead we get BillyChuck? We get Brass Knux feuds? We get Goldust Part3? This is the most uninspired writing I've seen in the WWF.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

thanks for that insightful comment alwayspissedoff, but really goodhelmet is (as is the case most of the time ) right.  the "win one, lose one" mentality of the midcard is what is destroying the credibility.  any wins over uppercarders are put over as flukes, and unlike in the past, uppercarders who are on the way out (taker, kane) dont seem to be willing or are not booked to put over the midcard.  this is bad, as there is a *huge* gap in credibility between the lowest main eventers (taker and kane) and the highest midcarders (rvd, edge, regal).  this isnt good, because of their maineventers, only trips, rock (movies permitting), angle (olympics permitting), jericho and benoit will be around in 3 years.  austin has always said that he wants to retire on top in 2-3 years, and i imagine that he *would* put talent over on his way out.  but the fact remains that guys like taker are doing nothing to establish the next generation, and as it stands there are no strong midcard fueds (hhh-rock) to propel both guys into the main event scene.  perhaps an rvd-edge fued could do this, as both guys can work, and rvd's overness can provide the initial springboard and interest into the fued.  if given the proper buildup and time, it could elevate both guys, and help bridge the chasm which currently exists.

[Guest Ihatesmarksandmarks]

it doesnt matter what happens with RVD, Jericho, benoit, storm whatever wrestler smarks "mark" out for.....they will never be happy. Someone is always holding someone down, its ALWAYS a consiparcy theory. It gets really boring after a while...

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

thats true, but its also hard not to get pissed off when the wwf (ross principally) uses half-assed excuses to justify their methods.  case in point is rvd and his promo skills: rvd has been labelled as a weak promo guy, yet on heat before the ppv, he apparently delivered a good promo, this contradicting the wwf's reasoning for his depush.  i will really get worried though if i see ross mention that rvd is in line for a push. (that is *always* the kiss of death).

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

I really don't care if goodhelmet is right or not(which he was). I just laid my feelings about RVD out in the open because the matter of him being held down or whatever doesn't mean jackshit to me.

 

Also, I'm happy that Jericho is champ. May not seem like much, but hey, it works for me

[Guest Ihatesmarksandmarks]

Well at least SOMEONES happy...notice how NO ONE praises the wwf for sticking with jericho and still keep him champ up until wrestlemania? Oh they wont complain, but they wont give the wwf its props either. Wow Rvd cut one decent promo....thats a big reason to push him, he needs to show more than one decent promo to get pushed to the moon..

[Guest goodhelmet]

"it doesnt matter what happens with RVD, Jericho, benoit, storm whatever wrestler smarks "mark" out for.....they will never be happy. Someone is always holding someone down, its ALWAYS a consiparcy theory. It gets really boring after a while..."

 

It's not a huge conspiracy. Every retired wrestler who has cut their ties with McMahon will tell you that politics is the name of the game. It happened in WCW. It happens in the WWF. When Taker told Vince he was the biggest yes man of all, it was a SHOOT. Hey, in 2000, the only complaint I had was the poor handling of the Angle-HHH-SMH storyline. Everything else was gold, at least wrestling wise. Last year, the stories sucked, but there were some Awesome matches. If I expect better things from a product I buy, I have every right to be critical and voice my opinion. If I want storm, rvd, benoit or Booker pushed and want to voice my views on a wrestling board, then I will at least give reasons for my argument.

 

Why do you watch wrestling? What about Hogan or the NWO entertains you? Did you watch WCW in 1997? If you did, what's the difference besides the company logo? It's tired and old and I want something different and creative. Billychuck? rehashed gimmick. NWO rehash. Tantrum Christian? rehash (Jericho 97). Possible 4way for the IC? rehash WM15. Last night's Austin strike? rehash 97 DX. Austin goes to jail? (Canadien Stampede, Nash Attica rehash. This is lazy writing and now the in ring quality product is suffering too because of injuries and bad booking. I have every right to be critical.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

it works for me too, having jericho as champ is great.  for me my bitching about rvd's depush is more of a personal preference thing.  rvd is my fave wrestler, and is arguably *the* freshest and most exciting guy in the wwf right now.  it just annoys me when he seems to be making such an effort with his moveset, promos, stiffness and sloppiness to adapt to the wwf style, and he gets placed in a wwf title program.  then this program gets dropped (it was for good reasoning on jerichos part, and would have been for rvd too if he was pushed as a result), and rvd gets pushed back into midcard limbo and pulling generic tag matches and 6 mans.  now im not saying he should have the title, but the thing which really got me interested in the wwf during the mid to late 90's was the midcard fueds, which were often more compelling and exciting that their main event counterparts.  now we see excessive buildup for main event fueds, largely at the expense of the midcard, which *is* the future of the wwf.  hell i dont care if its edge, regal, booker, or even test for chrissakes, they need to elevate somebody to the point where they can legitimately *hang* with main eventers and not needing to fluke a win.  the uppercard roster is quite aged, and unless something is done quite soon, there will be a talent void when some of them retire.

[Guest Ihatesmarksandmarks]

hey i am not saying the wrestling world is all peachy keen. IT has its problems, the first 45 minutes were crap, the austin shit with him being arrested, in fact i feel austin is played in general. And why are u comparing 1997 to now? who gives a fuck? Was there someone named rock,austin, or HHH in wcw in 1997? How about taker? or even RVD? Was jericho even REMOTELY as close to the top as he is now?Did chris benoit have his own t shirt? Sure things have been rehashed....the wwf has been doing it forever, it wont stop now. Its the way this buisness works. I dont know maybe my expectaions are a little less than yours....

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

things have been rehashed: this is true, it is done everywhere.  but rehashing something does not create great viewing or even great ratings.  look at the 2 periods where the wwf was riding the proverbial crest of the wave: in the 80's hulkamania was a fresh new idea, which created huge interest.  in the late 90's it was attitude and SCSA.  these were both *new* ideas, and it shows that while rehashed ideas will get you by, it is new ideas which allow you to truly break out.

[Guest Ihatesmarksandmarks]

Of course...i think the wwf was trying to do that with the whole "desire" thing that failed miserably...however i am not excpecting a huge wwf breakout period like in 97 or 98. So yes if the wwf gives a good show, i will mark out for it, just like i WILL and HAVE before bash them for putting out crap.Once again, it comes down to expectation...

[Guest goodhelmet]

"who gives a fuck? "

 

I give a fuck because I already saw the shit once and I also saw the end result which was running a company (that I supported) into the ground.

 

The Invasion angle didn't have to be UWF 2001. It could have been original and still been going strong but the booking and writing defeated the whole purpose of the angle.

So we both agree that things have been rehashed. Why are you content with that? My expectations aren't that higher. I like to see good wrestling. 2001 provided me with that even though the angles and writing sucked.

 

Just because it's the way the business works now doesn't mean it has to stay that way. The way the business works now is alot different than the 80's or early 90's.  the WWF is no longer a kiddie product so they have to change their focus. They're not even appealing to their target audience anymore. The teenagers have no interest in hogan and those of us who saw Hogan the first time around don't want him back for an extended period of time.

 

The WWF needs to change their paradigms and reinvent itself if it is to survive because they are making WCW level mistakes. If you are a WWF fan and I'm a WWF fan, then we should expect more from their product when they have the talent and means to deliver more!

[Guest Ihatesmarksandmarks]

well i dont think hogan is the LONG TERM solution for the wwf...and i dont think he'll be around for an extended period of time. I have always been a big hogan mark so seeing him back, for me is great. I think u are underestimating how hard it is for a company to "reinvent" itself. I do not feel wrestling is in a dark period yet, the wwf still has time to cash in (and they will) on bonafide draws such as hogan, nash, and to a lesser extent...hall. Judging by the reaction from the crowd, the crowd doesnt mind seeing these guys. And u just KNOW rock-hogan will pop a huge buyrate. Come on u really dont think RVD can do any better at this point? And its not like they have been burying the young talent....see jericho, chris. Still over and still being pushed. And a lot of you felt even 6 months ago that jericho would be buried now. So there is in my opinon hope for the wwf....i

[Guest goodhelmet]

ihatesmarksandmarks- this is the conversation i've wanted from you. rational and reasoned DISCUSSIONS regardless if we disagree. Not some incessant flaming.

 

I agree that I am shocked that the WWF still has the belt on Jericho. The only concern is that it appears he is holding the belt for HHH, no fault of Trips (or maybe). It's just the way he has been booked. Since I believe Hogan-Rock will headline Mania, I think it would be easy for Jericho to keep the belt at Mania and lose it at Backlash or later.

 

As for Hogan, I grew up watching the guy. I watched the NWO religiously in 96-98. I'm tired of him. I don't think he will draw as big as everyone thinks. If I'm wrong then I'll admit it. I personally think his act is played and since I don't enjoy his ring work, there is no payoff for me. As for the crowd, a crowd can quickly turn on you. I think after a few months of the old NWO stuff we'll see the crowd become apathetic to the NWO.

 

And on a sidenote, Nash was never able to draw..in WWF or WCW.

[Guest Ihatesmarksandmarks]

i agree with jericho.....defenitly needs a win at WM (a la HHH at wm16) to cement his status as one of the top players. I still dont buy into the politcal bulllshit about HHH....we will see about the nwo. As a hogan mark, i have to be optmistic about it...hogan-rock is a very tough thing to fuck up...even for vince. Hogan is old, and yeah his workrate will suck....but sometimes its just not about workrate but about entertainment. And as a wrestling fan i just dont see how anyone cannot be jakked for rock-hogan. As for nash....he was a poor drawing champion not a poor DRAW. He helped turn the tide for wcw....then helped turn the tide the other way. Im pretty apathetic abotu nash, doesnt bother me too much, but i cant say im a huge mark for him.

[Guest AlwaysPissedOff]

I like these discussion a LOT better than all the senseless flaming. AT one thread here isn't so full of it.

 

As for Jericho, i'm in agreement as well. A win at WM over Trips would cement him for good as a main eventer and would probably sell Backlash on it's own as Trips is now one pissed off asshole looking for revenge.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

this discussion *is* a lot better, because people arent making blanket characterisations and stereotypes.  a win over trips would be good for jericho, but i wont hold my breath.  even if he does win, there will be especially heavy interference, though this will be ok as we know hogan-rock will main, and rock *should* emerge victorious.  im pretty pumped for hogan-rock as you said, but i think it could be an absolute trainwreck in the ring, which could leave a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths, considering it is the wrestlemania main event.  (hey, i had to get at least *one* smark comment in there hey?)

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Here it comes:

 

I agree 100% with ihatemarksandsmarks on this one.  And Jericho should keep the title...if only because his gimmick IS the title.  If he were to lose it...would he get Christian's temper tantrum gimmick?  Have Jericho keep it until Backlash...then lose it to HHH.  Keeping your title at WrestleMAnia as a heel does more to give you credability then holding it for the other 11 months straight IMO.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

it would give him plenty of credibility, but would HHH be prepared to do the J.O.B.?? no matter how tainted it was??? *prepares to duck flames for even considering that hhh might not be willing to put jericho over.*

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Maybe HHH won't care since the NWO is going to end up with the belt eventually...(you'd have to assume) HHH would actually be a transitional champion...irony.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

i dont think the nwo will end up with the belt.  they want to destroy the company, not represent it, and if they hold the belt they represent the company.  i can see them destroying the man *with* the title which lends credence to trips going over, though on the other hand, a champion jericho could go a long way to elevating guys like booker t, and finally establishing benoit as a main eventer.