Old Issue, but let's clarify all this with RVD

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

My ideal situation would be to keep the belt and the NWO seperate and use it to elavate all the people that the NWO won't...

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

yup, totally agree, though logic would suggest that the nwo go after the belt.  lets just hope that wrestling tradition holds true and all logic is thrown out the window eh?

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

Damn skippy.

 

Hogan vs. Rock works once (due to mark out value and tremendous buildup)

 

BUT if Hogan got the belt...

 

Well we learned from WCW that dream matches lose their luster pretty quick after the first time. (because the in ring work isn't up to snuff)

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

indeed, keep the nwo's in ring activities shortish and to the point.  theres no need to expose their obvious weaknesses, and make them one time only matches.  after all, they may get lucky and have a watchable match first time around... i wouldnt hold my breath for a second though.  it was for this reason that i though a tag match may have been the way to go at mania, covered the weaknesses, but allowed for future matches.  oh well, we'll see what happens in toronto.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

That raises an interesting point about Hogan...

 

How many guys are there for him to wrestle?

 

Let's face it...Hogan isn't going to lace em up for Storm, Christian, Edge or RVD...(of course this could break into an argument about those guys not being "Big" enough for Hogan...but Rock wrestles Test...so argument invalid)

 

He'll wrestle Rock, Austin, HHH, Taker

 

And I could see him doing clean jobs to them too...

 

I suppose he'd wrestle Big Show (cause they are frieds) and Kane (cause he's big) and Angle (cause he's good)

 

Would Hogan wrestle Benoit and Jericho?

 

I mean especially Jericho if he is still pushed to the top...That would be...odd.  Hogan vs. Jericho?

[Guest InigoMontoya]

I think Jericho should hold the belt for a long time. They need to lengthen the title runs imo, which I think they have done with some of the other belts.

Have HHH beat Jericho at WM, defend the title the night after in Jericho's rematch... then have all the run-ins etc that Raw, so put the title back on Jericho. This way we still get a good match with no interference to keep the belt on Jericho (fans will be happy) and we don't have a the face losing at Wrestlemania (fans will be happy). But right now, I don't think HHH should keep the belt. I'm not going to insult him for being over-pushed etc. and being a roided up useless piece of crap, because that's what you expect from a guy who was crippled less than eight months ago. But I don't think he is back to the level he will most likely reach again... maybe he should have got out of the gym and onto the track?

As for the RVD thing, I don't think that he is being held down by HHH, or anyone, but I would like to see him with a higher spot on the roster. What I mean is that I don't think anyone is holding RVD down because he's RVD, I think they don't think they need him there... which they really don't. With RVD, they should put him in HHH's place, and move HHH down a little. Let him squash a few jobbers until he gets his game back.

[Guest The Vanilla Midget]

i dunno about switching their places, rvd isnt ready for a main event slot *yet,* he needs to be built up to it.  hhh doesnt need jobber squash matches, he needs intense matches with the like of angle, jericho and austin.  trips will need to bust his ass into gear unless he wants to look like a complete clown against these guys, and that would probably be awesome in terms of getting him back into the sort of form he was in before the injury.  because, we all know that trips wouldnt wanna look bad in the ring now dont we...

[Guest Brian]

"This system hasn't always been there. It was put in place after the Cliq debacle and lockerroom unrest."

 

Forgot that part, you're right.

 

"Um, no. Rock was pushed regardless of what the fans wanted, esp. when they were lacking talent (blue chipper anyone). The fans reaction required Rock's heel turn."

 

Blue Chipper wasn't a mian event push. By the time the Rock got to his main event push, the fans were digging him as either a heel or a face.

 

"Did Hall, Nash, and Hogan earn their spot after two days back?"

 

Like you said, post-Kliq, which is something I meant to include. Hall didn't main event, Nash is a big man, and Hogan came from the main events of AWA. Hogan was a natural choice.

 

"it's not about politics. Do you think anyone would ever get pushed of there were that kind of politics? "

 

"What did steph or Shane do to earn their spot?"

 

Shane worked every bottom-feeding job in the company, from ring-crew to production. Steph spent countless hours between college and flying into the Stamford office, getting to sleep on the planes. Vince put them through hell to make sure they earned their time.

 

"Agreed, which negates your view that people earn their spot."

 

Vince's way is earning the spot.

 

"In order for these midcarders to "hold water" wouldn't that mean they receive a solid push where they don't have to return "jobs" to keep credibility in the fans eyes thus killing their heat whereas the "win one, lose one" mentality does not help build credible future main eventers."

 

I was thinking more along the lines of working hard, drawing (sales) and having good crowd reaction for whatever sustained amount of time Vince decides before they've earned their spot.

 

"The system doesn't work fine. The writers don't devote enough time to midcard angles, put them in meaningless feuds and the crowd's apathy illustrates that. When your top heel(HHH) gets injured and your top face (Rock)films a movie and business decreases because you have no credible main eventers, that's the fault of Vince and the writers."

 

They could have gone fine without turning Stone Cold, and the guy who was ready to come up in the end failed as a draw. They pulled the plug on four guys. There were guys there for a push.

 

"New talent always needs to be developed. We admit that wrestling is a cyclical business, well the talent needs to be cycled out and new stars developed."

 

So the old stars get pushed out the door when new stars are ready? You should tell Undertaker that. Anyway, their uppercard is pretty good as is before the NWO came in. The WWF has six guys with potential to main event at that point.

 

"If not, when your old stars go, you have a bunch of midcarders trying to carry the torch that no one lit for them. The end result is WCW. Not building future talent is just bad for business."

 

But they do build talent. They do it slowly, but it happens. Jericho's a work in progress. He was every bit as over as RVD and had better mic skills and wrestling skills, not to mention he complimented the top guys better. They spent nearly ten months putting Angle up and over (from his title win to his face turn). He had to work a year of dark matches before making it to TV. Triple H before him He had his path natched out from under him. Foley was ready to go before that. He had it a long time coming. Rock had that awesome summer, with the ladder match and the great heel work. Stone Cold sat through bad gimmicks, had a twist of bad luck, fought it. But all thsoe guys listed above have one important thing that they proved, they can play both heels and faces and work the mic.

 

Michaels and Hart didn't main event immediately. Other than big men, has Vince really pushed anyone strongly into the main event slot?

 

"Vince has the most talent ever at his disposal and he's pissing it away."

 

He's pissing a ton of talent away. But it's not at the upper-midcard, it's at the lowest of the low.

[Guest Ripper]

These threads always pop up during the one week that RVD actually has direction.  Then a week later when he is wreslting 1 minute or less matches at the begaining of the show, stuck in some tag team and being in the ring only 30-45 seconds, noone post one of these.

 

He DID get depushed.  And he got depushed too much.  He was shoved from main event to lower card. And at the time, still one of the most over guys in the fed.  For about 3 months now, everyone that says that people are complaining for nothing "Hey, he is about to get in a fued for the IC title so just shut up"...Well, guess what, it is 3 months later, he still isn't in any meaningful fued and you are still saying just wait until he gets pushed back to the midcard.  The guy had a match for the title, everyone in the crowd thought he won and he got the biggest pop in months....then he was wrestling in one time only tag matches, and wrestling Regal for 30 sec..... HE GOT DEPUSHED TOO MUCH.  It isn't really mych of a conspiracy, it is basically a fact.  He should be right on the Regal/Edge level right now, but instead he is about 5-6 notches below them.  I don't think anyone is saying that he should be in the ME, but for christ sake, would  a Booker T RVD fued kill them?  Would a DDP/Booker T fued kill them?  They have the ingredients for a great midcard and they aren't using it....bottom line.

 

And it isn't just RVD, I have put up the same argument for Kanyon, Rhyno, Booker T, DDP, Christian, Taz and Lance Storm.  All of these guys got TV time, started to get over and then got jobbed out and made a joke and wrestling less than a minute matches.  It is ridiculous. .

[Guest Special K]

I personally think the RVD thing is pretty much just indicative of the midcard situation in the WWF. I've never minded the main event staple changing slowly, but peopl need a reason to CARE about the midcard, so wrestlers can actually move up. Without mic time or thought out feuds, even if the fans like RVD, Edge, etc. they'll eventually become apathetic. It seems that the midcard now is just arbitrarily throwing faces against heels with no rhyme or reason in short matches, and that's not going to get anyone over.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

I agree 100% with Ripper.

 

I've never seen someone depushed so hard.

 

He remains over...and the WWF has a chance not to blow it completely with RVD.

 

The clock is still ticking.

[Guest TheMikeSC]

i agree with jericho.....defenitly needs a win at WM (a la HHH at wm16) to cement his status as one of the top players.>>

 

Thing is, I SERIOUSLY doubt he'll go over. I won't even blame HHH for this one. Vince is loathe to have heels go over at WM (only happened once---though it was SUPPOSED to happen twice) and I don't think he'll give Jericho the honor.

 

<<I still dont buy into the politcal bulllshit about HHH....we will see about the nwo. As a hogan mark, i have to be optmistic about it...hogan-rock is a very tough thing to fuck up...even for vince. Hogan is old, and yeah his workrate will suck....but sometimes its just not about workrate but about entertainment. And as a wrestling fan i just dont see how anyone cannot be jakked for rock-hogan.>>

 

I'll be honest and say I'm not even close to being jacked up for the match. I say, and have said for a while, that Rock is the most underrated in-ring performer in America. He's really quite good in the ring and people tend to overlook that.

 

That being said, the match will be terrible. If it hits 2 stars, I'll be amazed.

 

I can't say that I've seen an entertaining Hogan match probably since his cage match with Flair at Havoc '94. His ring work is borderline embarrassing and I don't find his mic work all that impressive.

 

<<As for nash....he was a poor drawing champion not a poor DRAW. He helped turn the tide for wcw....then helped turn the tide the other way. Im pretty apathetic abotu nash, doesnt bother me too much, but i cant say im a huge mark for him. >>

 

The nWo got over, not because of Hall or Nash's involvement, but because people thought that they were still with the WWF. Lord knows WCW waited as long as they could to dispel that notion. You couldv'e stuck any former WWF upper mid-carders in that spot and it would've done just as well.

 

Take away the hottest angle in wrestling and there is not a point in his career wher Nash put a BUTT in a seat. I don't mind that for mid-carders (since they aren't often given a chance to do so), but if a guy is a bad worker and a main eventer, he'd best draw like gang-busters.

 

Nash does not, has not, and likely will not ever do that. And that makes signing him an incredibly poor decision on the part of the WWF.

                            -=Mike