The Scott Hall story (this time with a source!)

February 20, 2002

"The only problem I have with that Loss...is when you say that if the WWF fires Hall tomorrow...you'd blame the WWF.

Whether they knew the risks or not...Hall would have pissed away another opportunity."

And Vince had to know that was a possibility when they hired him. He's not that stupid.>>

Vince has shown, time and again, that you'll never go broke underestimating his stupidity.

<<"And it would have to be pretty bad to have him get fired for it...with the investment the WWF has made in the NWO."

Definitely. I don't think he should be fired at all. I think he should be warned and reprimanded in other ways. Firing Scott Hall would be just a reverse case of egos getting in the way of what's best for business.>>

Well, judging by the ratings since the announcement of the nWo, they aren't exactly setting things afire.

<<"Killing locker room morale is a bad thing. There's no other way to look at it."

Making money is a good thing. There's no other way to look at it.>>

But you assume that these guys can make money when they've failed so spectacularly at it for years.

<<"How do you think these guys feel about the NWO coming in in the first place."

I'm sure they're upset, but maybe if they were drawing in the first place, it wouldn't be necessary. If anything, they should be glad because everyone is going to get a huge Wrestlemania payday.>>

Everybody got the huge payday before the nWo arrived. SkyDome was already sold out. The buyrate would've been obscenely high.

All the addition of the nWo has done is crank the match quality down quite a bit.

"The lower card guys can't get on TV and try to move up the card."

I agree. There are so many underutilized and unutilized talents the WWF has under contract. If any of them had the drawing power of the NWO, they'd probably be all over TV.>>

What drawing power does the nWo have NOW?

Shall we go back and mention that they didn't draw a soul for the past few YEARS?

Hall has NEVER drawn. Nash has NEVER drawn. Hogan hasn't drawn in YEARS.

This is anoher Invasion---just with much less gifted performers.

<<They will get their opportunity in due time, but right now, the WWF is attempting a short-term business boost. They need to deal with it and stop being selfish. As much as I love Jamie Knoble, I can't realistically expect the WWF to turn down the opportunity to make millions so he can be on Raw. As much as the Raven character could really make some money for the WWF, it would take at least of year of character development and establishment of the name for that to happen. Yes, they made mistakes in the past and maybe they should have exercised patience here, but they wanted a quick fix, and they're getting it. How they handle the aftermath is totally up to them.>>

They could make more money off of a well-utilized Raven then they will off of the nWo.

<<"The midcard guys can pretty much kiss any chance of moving up to the top anytime soon."

Then maybe the midcarders should step outside themselves for a second and realize that maybe it's not their time to be on top just yet. That time will come if they remain persistent and focused. Like HHH said, work so hard to get so over that they have no choice but to elevate you.>>

Hearing HHH say that is laughable. He didn't get over due to hard work. He got over because the WWF shoved him so hard down the fans' throats that they finally accepted it.

HHH was not over AT ALL until Mick Foley put him over---and Hunter was pushed to the moon for MONTHS before that happened.

<<RVD could be main eventing right now, that much I agree with, but he's not. That should just fuel his fire more. It should make him work harder to get even MORE over.>>

How much more over can he get? He's more over than HHH presently, but he's not within a mile of HHH's position. He does quite well at No Mercy and gets BURIED immediately following.

<<Their time WILL COME. In the meantime, cash your checks since business is up, keeping working hard and shut the fuck up. You WILL be rewarded.>>

How is business up?

Ratings aren't up.

<<"And the Main Eventers just got told they aren't good enough."

Not good enough? Well, wrestling isn't about the mental state of the main eventers and their feelings, it's about making money. Austin and the Rock and HHH are drawing steady numbers, but they aren't doing what they used to do in terms of bringing in revenue. If the NWO can bring about a short-term business boost, then the top guys should be happy because their spots aren't in jeopardy and they'll be making good money.>>

No, because IF the nWo makes good numbers, their spots ARE in jeopardy.

Big-time.

<<"And why?

It's not for lack of effort. Although several things have fallen flat I beleive that from Jericho to Undertaker to Hurricane to Chuck Polumbo the effort has been very high recently."

Yes it has. The WWF's not perfect. They screw up all the time and I'm usually the first to say so. But they would be making the biggest fuck up ever if they turned down the opportunity to make big money over the next 12 months.>>

Again, you're assuming that the nWo will make enough money to make the never-ending headaches worth the effort.

A questional assumption, to say the least.

<<"So how does Vince counter the stalled ratings (which are a result of poor booking and angle execution)?"

By bringing in new (old) faces and improving the booking and angle execution, or at least that's what I see so far.>>

So why not improve the booking and execution with some of the talent that they have in their developmental territories?

Why not use young guys who can outwork the three fossils?

If they gave Jericho a tiny portion of the push they give the nWo, he'd be ridculously over.

<<"By hiring 3 guys with no work ethic to set up shop at the top of the card."

They aren't the greatest workers, but they haven't stepped in the ring yet. We'll see what happens, although I definitely agree that they'll probably be a step behind. The question is "does it really matter?" Will the crowds be any less into the match? Will it hurt the buyrate? If the answer is anything but yes, there's a problem. If not, our star ratings mean jack shit compared to a 2.0 buyrate.>>

They won't draw a 2.0 buyrate.

It's been a long time since any of them had any part in a 0.2 buyrate.

<<"It's no wonder that No Way Out sucked. First ppv since NWO signed...lack of effort from the workers."

How about a dead crowd? How about too many run-ins and ref bumps? I thought the PPV was lackluster too, but it wasn't because of lack of effort from the workers. And if they get discouraged to a point where Hogan, Hall and Nash coming in bothers them so much that they refuse to put forth effort, then they don't deserve to be elevated. Bottom line.>>

If Hall, Hogan, and Nash are negatively affecting just about everyody in the company, then what good are they?

They won't draw enough to make it worthwhile.

<<"That sure seems like a case of low morale."

Self-inflicted if that's the case.>>

No, inflicted by signing three cancers who will take away TV time from people who have never been given a tiny fraction of the chance the WWF is giving these people.

<<"Before the flaming begins...Yes the NWO is over. Yes the angle on Raw was good. Yes buyrates are going to go up.

That being said...in order to do so...the guys who have been LOYAL to the WWF and busted there ass every night are being replaced on the card by guys who only work on TV."

True. That's why this isn't a long-term solution to the WWF's woes. I think (read: hope) they realize that.>>

Buyrates are up?

Que?

The ONLY reason NWO might get more buys than Royal Rumble is the resolving of the DirecTV situation.

Fans make one mistake: Just because something gets a pop doesn't mean they draw.

Hacksaw Duggan ALWAYS got good pops.

When was the last time he drew anybody to an arena?

<<"And I for one don't blame them for being upset."

When Hulk Hogan tells Vince McMahon that they're all chumps that deserve to be jobbers, then they have something to complain about. Until then, they should be more open-minded.>>

It's up to the nWo guys to show that they've changed. Several of the WWF guys dealt with them in WCW and found them to be, and rightly so, unpleasant people to deal with.

It's not the WWFs guys' job to be open-minded. It's the nWo guys' job to build bridges.

<<WCW had a bad locker room and no room for elavation. >>

And the WWF just inherited it.

Congrats Vinnie.

My only hope now is that the roster split will keep the nWo on one side of the roster so I can skip that show every week.

-=Mike

February 20, 2002

i think that while Hall isn't going to win any backstage poularity contests i really doubt he's been behaving as badly as these reports say, honestly how often are these kinda reports accurate. how does the internet community know any of this, if the wwf wrestlers were unhappy they'd be very vocal about it, i think the reports of hall's misbehavior are bull shit.

February 20, 2002

I agree with whoever it was that said Hall needs to be motivated. I mean look at the time when Hall was being pushed towards a feud with Goldberg, the ladder match he had no Nitro with Bam Bam Bigelow was damn excellent. And this is a guy he had legit heat with for throwing him out of an ECW show while Bammer worked there. But Scott went out and put on the best damn Nitro match that had been seen in a long while, and probably wasn't equaled afterwards. If you really want the guy to prove himself, just question his ring work......that's the only thing he really seems to take pride in anyways.

February 20, 2002

"Vince has shown, time and again, that you'll never go broke underestimating his stupidity."

You're right, but Vince has also shown time and time again that he knows how to hype something and create an image of something that is greater than it actually is. That's the art of promoting.

"Well, judging by the ratings since the announcement of the nWo, they aren't exactly setting things afire."

Uh, the NWO debuted Sunday. Ratings have yet to be released for Raw on Monday. I think even the densest of fans knew they wouldn't actually be on TV until No Way Out. It was announced that they would actually be at the PPV and the WWF gave very little reason for anyone to watch in the interim. I'm not totally convinced this is going to be a huge success either, but before we pan it, don't you think maybe we should at least wait for Raw's rating or the NWO buyrate to come in?

"But you assume that these guys can make money when they've failed so spectacularly at it for years."

Failed spectacularly? Yeah, Nash was in WCW during the dog days, but so was Booker T and he was pushed just as hard toward the end. Why does everyone blame Nash for WCW failing? Was he any more or less a part of it than Booker T? Yeah, as a booker, he sucked, but even after his bad run with the pencil, WCW could have been turned around. Hall hasn't been on TV for two years so it's hard to say he's really failed recently. Hogan has always popped a good rating or buyrate after pulling a disappearing act for a long time, and that is where he's most valuable. I think that's obvious if you follow Nitro's ratings in 1999. Hogan's no longer the immortal box office draw, but to say you don't think Hogan v Rock will be a successful PPV is just amazing.

"Everybody got the huge payday before the nWo arrived. SkyDome was already sold out. The buyrate would've been obscenely high."

For HHH v Jericho? I love Jericho, he's my favorite wrestler and I'm one of the few around here who still like HHH, but I even admit that there is more money in Hogan v Rock than Y2J v HHH. Yes, they still would have had a great payday, but I'm expecting it to be even higher since the buyrate will probably be better than it would have been. Once again, just speculation, but don't ya think Rock v Hogan is a pretty safe bet?

"All the addition of the nWo has done is crank the match quality down quite a bit."

And they have yet to even step into the ring. I'm impressed.

"What drawing power does the nWo have NOW?"

We should find out soon, but I'm optimistic.

"Shall we go back and mention that they didn't draw a soul for the past few YEARS?"

Shall we mention that WCW was switching leaders, in the process of a sale, and watered down the NWO concept to a point where the whole idea behind the angle was lost? I got tired of the NWO too, but the reason people got tired of it was that they ended up becoming just another group, they got too big and WCW never got the blowoff win. That's it.

"Hall has NEVER drawn.

Except when he has.

"Nash has NEVER drawn."

Except when he was part of a resurgance in house show attendance in the first half of 1996 in the WWF and helped reshape the industry later that year with the NWO. There are wrestlers I have liked more than Nash for sure, but for the next little while, I'm confident that the guy is money.

"Hogan hasn't drawn in YEARS."

Hogan hasn't been a part of a big angle in years either. The last thing he did was with Sting and it drew. Then the Carl Malone/Dennis Rodman crossover thing and it drew. Then the Goldberg Nitro match which also drew. Has he really been put in a strong angle designed to create interest since then?

"This is anoher Invasion---just with much less gifted performers."

Only the heels are actually being allowed to get heat and momentum on their side and the crowds respect them because they are established main eventers.

"They could make more money off of a well-utilized Raven then they will off of the nWo."

I actually agree with you, but they're thinking short-term and trying to create an instant buzz. Raven couldn't do that no matter how hard they pushed him.

"Hearing HHH say that is laughable. He didn't get over due to hard work. He got over because the WWF shoved him so hard down the fans' throats that they finally accepted it."

Yeah, he must have been taking a nap during those Cactus Jack matches. Yeah, he was pushed and got over because of his push, but his hard work has kept him there. I want PROOF one of these days that HHH is actually holding anyone down, but no one has any.

"HHH was not over AT ALL until Mick Foley put him over---and Hunter was pushed to the moon for MONTHS before that happened."

It's actually about the same time table as Chris Jericho's main event push. In other words, it's perfectly normal.

"How much more over can he get? He's more over than HHH presently, but he's not within a mile of HHH's position. He does quite well at No Mercy and gets BURIED immediately following."

Well, let's see. If he learned to cut a promo, showed range outside of the happy-go-lucky stoner, actually developed a character, used enough sympathy psychology in his matches that the crowds would start rallying for his comebacks and expanded his moveset outside of the high-flying stuff, maybe he would be getting that top-shelf push. RVD gets pops, yeah, but no one pops for his comebacks, they pop for his spots. That means RVD is not over, RVD's spots are over. There's a major difference and the fans haven't been given any reason so far to rally behind his character. I hope it comes one day because he has major potential, but he's just not quite there yet.

"How is business up?"

It will be. We'll go in circles on this argument at least until Raw's ratings are released. Get back to me then.

"Ratings aren't up."

Let's wait and see what they were for their first in-house appearance.

"No, because IF the nWo makes good numbers, their spots ARE in jeopardy."

Oh please. Hogan, Hall and Nash have to have opponents.

"Again, you're assuming that the nWo will make enough money to make the never-ending headaches worth the effort."

Just like you're assuming they won't. We'll see. You may be right, I may be right.

"A questional assumption, to say the least."

Ditto.

"So why not improve the booking and execution with some of the talent that they have in their developmental territories?"

Because they need fresh faces for an INSTANT shake up. I don't agree with this logic, but obviously the WWF doesn't want a payoff in six months. They want it NOW. I think the NWO is the best way to reach that goal.

"Why not use young guys who can outwork the three fossils?"

Because workrate has nothing to do with ability to draw money. It's all about crowd reaction and promo ability.

"If they gave Jericho a tiny portion of the push they give the nWo, he'd be ridculously over."

Damn right, but Jericho is doing just fine. He's getting the biggest push in the WWF outside of the NWO right now and he's not immediately running to the midcard like everyone said he would. Chris Jericho is headlining a show featuring Hogan v Rock as a co-main event! Do you realize how much that speaks for him, that he gets to follow Hogan v Rock? If that's not a push, tell me, what is?

"They won't draw a 2.0 buyrate.

It's been a long time since any of them had any part in a 0.2 buyrate."

It's been a long time since any of them have had an angle.

"If Hall, Hogan, and Nash are negatively affecting just about everyody in the company, then what good are they?"

It's ridiculous that they are affecting people that way without having even done anything bad thus far in this run. Work together. Work hard. Make money. Ignore everything else. It's all petty. And stop complaining. If locker room morale is low right now, it's because the midcarders are judging wrestlers based on their reputation instead of how they are personally treated. I think it was well-documented during the inVasion just how ridiculously sensitive the WWF wrestlers can be at times.

"They won't draw enough to make it worthwhile."

Once again, you're assuming just as much as you accuse me of doing. You may be right, but we'll see.

"No, inflicted by signing three cancers who will take away TV time from people who have never been given a tiny fraction of the chance the WWF is giving these people."

Who exactly is not getting TV time that should be that could be making a bigger impact? I want names. I also want creative ideas for those people and suggestions for a Wrestlemania X8 that would draw more than the current card.

"Buyrates are up?

Que?"

You could at least wait for ONE number to be revealed before you declare the NWO non-factors.

"The ONLY reason NWO might get more buys than Royal Rumble is the resolving of the DirecTV situation."

Well, in that case, the BUYS won't be indicative, rather the BUYRATE.

"Fans make one mistake: Just because something gets a pop doesn't mean they draw."

That's true, but what barometer do you suggest promoters use as an immediate way to gauge how the fans like something. It's funny that you use RVD as a case as someone who is wildly over yet he has yet to really draw a lot of money. You're basing that solely on entrance pops.

"Hacksaw Duggan ALWAYS got good pops.

When was the last time he drew anybody to an arena?"

Not saying he could, but when's the last time he headlined?

"It's up to the nWo guys to show that they've changed."

Read Hogan's WWF.com interview and whether you think he's sincere or not, you've gotta agree that the image he's portraying is the totally right one.

"Several of the WWF guys dealt with them in WCW and found them to be, and rightly so, unpleasant people to deal with."

And Jericho has said he will respect them because a lot has changed since 1998. If Jericho, who in the past was been held down more than anyone currently in the wrestling business, can swallow his pride and be a pro, why can't anyone else?

"It's not the WWFs guys' job to be open-minded. It's the nWo guys' job to build bridges."

That's true, but give them a little time.

"My only hope now is that the roster split will keep the nWo on one side of the roster so I can skip that show every week.

-=Mike"

See, the WWF is doing something that would please you as a fan, yet you barely acknowledge it. Criticize when warranted, but also give credit when due.

February 20, 2002

I don't see what was wrong about the nWo turning up in their Costumes, they were either really looking forward to being back on TV again or they knew they were going to be late so they got ready for the show before they set off. And the thing with the limo - maybe the WWF should TELL people what they can and cannot do before they start work for the WWF!

Exactly. For the life of me, I can't figure out why showing up in your ring attire is so terrible. And that's what boggles my mind about these WWF backstage stories. They expect these newcomers to adhere to rules that they are never told about. Billy Silverman bought a first-class ticket for himself and caught a ton of shit for it. Was he supposed to use his psychic powers to determine that this was frowned upon? I dunno.. these backstage stories just don't quite add up sometimes.

February 20, 2002

? I dunno.. these backstage stories just don't quite add up sometimes.

maybe because we are being worked?????

February 21, 2002

"Vince has shown, time and again, that you'll never go broke underestimating his stupidity."

You're right, but Vince has also shown time and time again that he knows how to hype something and create an image of something that is greater than it actually is. That's the art of promoting.

He has failed, spectacularly, to do this for a while.

"Well, judging by the ratings since the announcement of the nWo, they aren't exactly setting things afire."

Uh, the NWO debuted Sunday. Ratings have yet to be released for Raw on Monday. I think even the densest of fans knew they wouldn't actually be on TV until No Way Out. It was announced that they would actually be at the PPV and the WWF gave very little reason for anyone to watch in the interim. I'm not totally convinced this is going to be a huge success either, but before we pan it, don't you think maybe we should at least wait for Raw's rating or the NWO buyrate to come in?

The nWo was announced WEEKS ago. They didn't make a live appearance until Sunday, but the WWF has hyped them for weeks.

No improvement.

This past RAW had a whopping .3 increase over last week.

.3 increase after a PPV?

That's weak.

And, again, any increase in the NWO buyrate woud largely be due to DirecTV being back on board.

"But you assume that these guys can make money when they've failed so spectacularly at it for years."

Failed spectacularly? Yeah, Nash was in WCW during the dog days, but so was Booker T and he was pushed just as hard toward the end. Why does everyone blame Nash for WCW failing?

Nash's booking caused a lot of the problems.

Was he any more or less a part of it than Booker T? Yeah, as a booker, he sucked, but even after his bad run with the pencil, WCW could have been turned around.

Nash was a MUCH bigger part of it than Booker.

Even when he was World Champ, Booker was pushed beneath Scott Steiner and Goldberg (i.e Jericho today in regards to Austin and HHH)

Hall hasn't been on TV for two years so it's hard to say he's really failed recently.

Why has he been on TV so rarely?

Because he can't stay clean enough to appear regularly.

WCW HOPED his appearance a SuperBrawl 2K would pop a buyrate.

It didn't.

Hogan has always popped a good rating or buyrate after pulling a disappearing act for a long time, and that is where he's most valuable. I think that's obvious if you follow Nitro's ratings in 1999.

I guess I missed these big numbers Hogan popped post-1999.

Hogan's no longer the immortal box office draw, but to say you don't think Hogan v Rock will be a successful PPV is just amazing.

Will it be succesful?

Yup.

Any more successful than Rock v Jericho, Rock v Angle, Rock v HHH, Rock v Austin, Rock v UT, heck Rock v Flair?

Not likely.

Hogan brings nothing to the table but nostalgia---and nostalgia does little for me.

"Everybody got the huge payday before the nWo arrived. SkyDome was already sold out. The buyrate would've been obscenely high."

For HHH v Jericho? I love Jericho, he's my favorite wrestler and I'm one of the few around here who still like HHH, but I even admit that there is more money in Hogan v Rock than Y2J v HHH.

The event already sold out before the nWo was ever mentioned. The buyrate would've been absurdly high with or without them.

And keep in mind, Hogan likely drove away as many fans from WCW s he ever drew.

Yes, they still would have had a great payday, but I'm expecting it to be even higher since the buyrate will probably be better than it would have been. Once again, just speculation, but don't ya think Rock v Hogan is a pretty safe bet?

No.

Rock v HHH or Rock v Austin would've been much safer bets---and that's with Rock v Austin being overdone as WM main event.

"All the addition of the nWo has done is crank the match quality down quite a bit."

And they have yet to even step into the ring. I'm impressed.

Amazing the talent that they posess to do that.

WWF has to waste Rock with Hogan. They'll have to waste somebody with Hall and somebody with Nash--so, we get 2 likely duds and one probable dud right there, when the only WWF main eventer who tends to suck at that level is Undertaker.

"What drawing power does the nWo have NOW?"

We should find out soon, but I'm optimistic.

And I'm not.

I see no reason to be.

I see the WWF's shows becoming the same unwatchable mess that WCW programming was from about 1997 on.

"Shall we go back and mention that they didn't draw a soul for the past few YEARS?"

Shall we mention that WCW was switching leaders, in the process of a sale, and watered down the NWO concept to a point where the whole idea behind the angle was lost? I got tired of the NWO too, but the reason people got tired of it was that they ended up becoming just another group, they got too big and WCW never got the blowoff win. That's it.

And WHY was there never a blowoff win?

Any guesses as to who shot it down?

Anybody?

Hello?

The nWo got over because it was a neat idea. It was not over because Hall and Nash were involved (any WWF upper mid-carder would've done just as well).

"Hall has NEVER drawn.

Except when he has.

When has that EVER been?

"Nash has NEVER drawn."

Except when he was part of a resurgance in house show attendance in the first half of 1996 in the WWF and helped reshape the industry later that year with the NWO.

Amazing that the WWF was on the verge of bankruptcy and house show attendance was viewed as being abysmal during that era.

I'm not sure where you get your figures from, but they definitely don't mesh with the actual reality.

Nash was a major-league bomb as WWF Champ.

He was a BIGGER bomb as WCW Champ.

There are wrestlers I have liked more than Nash for sure, but for the next little while, I'm confident that the guy is money.

WCW was sure that he was money for a long time.

Of course, they also went out of business.

"Hogan hasn't drawn in YEARS."

Hogan hasn't been a part of a big angle in years either. The last thing he did was with Sting and it drew. Then the Carl Malone/Dennis Rodman crossover thing and it drew. Then the Goldberg Nitro match which also drew.

Interesting fact---that GB v Hogan match drew roughly the same attendance as Royal Rumble '97 (keep in mind, the WWF was getting decimated by WCW in '97).

Did it draw? Well, when your biggest money match can't draw much more than a WWF PPV that wasn't exactly superb, you might have a problem.

Hogan v Sting killed Sting's heat.

And let's take a look at Hogan's total WCW run.

1994 --- Didn't Draw

1995 --- Ditto

1996 --- nWo formed. WCW did well.

1997 --- WCW does well.

1998 --- WCW crashes.

1999 --- WCW burns

2000 --- WCW shrivels up

2001 --- WCW ceases to exist.

So, for a whopping two years of his WCW stint (coincidentally, also coinciding with the hottest angle in wrestling), Hogan "drew".

Funny that e had such a hard time doing it before---or after.

Has he really been put in a strong angle designed to create interest since then?

Hogan has worlds of power over his character and decides what he does.

His feud with Kidman could have worked---if Hogan allowed Billy to look like a potential threat.

If Hogan jobbed cleanly to Sting in '97, Sting might have had heat in 1998.

Hogan's program with Warrior didn't exactly set the world on fire.

"This is anoher Invasion---just with much less gifted performers."

Only the heels are actually being allowed to get heat and momentum on their side and the crowds respect them because they are established main eventers.

The crowd pops for them because they're old guys they kind of remember.

They get the kind of in-ring heat that Flair would get if he wrestled regularly.

"They could make more money off of a well-utilized Raven then they will off of the nWo."

I actually agree with you, but they're thinking short-term and trying to create an instant buzz. Raven couldn't do that no matter how hard they pushed him.

And thinking short-term is never a good idea. To make money in the biz, you HAVE to think long-term.

"Hearing HHH say that is laughable. He didn't get over due to hard work. He got over because the WWF shoved him so hard down the fans' throats that they finally accepted it."

Yeah, he must have been taking a nap during those Cactus Jack matches.

No, but the fans were during his heel run until those matches. Go back and watch the tapes. The crowd was APATHETIC for him and the WWF pushed him FAR more than his level of being over warranted.

It took Foley to finally make HHH a star.

Of course, Hunter already had 3 World Title reigns before he actualy GOT over---so again, his coments are laughable.

Yeah, he was pushed and got over because of his push, but his hard work has kept him there. I want PROOF one of these days that HHH is actually holding anyone down, but no one has any.

He doesn't let his opponents look good. When he teamed with Austin, Steve ended up playing Hunter's lackey, for God's sake.

"HHH was not over AT ALL until Mick Foley put him over---and Hunter was pushed to the moon for MONTHS before that happened."

It's actually about the same time table as Chris Jericho's main event push. In other words, it's perfectly normal.

No, it's vastly different. Jericho had heat. Hunter had none.

Hunter was allowed to beat everybody and do so fairly cleanly. Jericho was not.

"How much more over can he get? He's more over than HHH presently, but he's not within a mile of HHH's position. He does quite well at No Mercy and gets BURIED immediately following."

Well, let's see. If he learned to cut a promo, showed range outside of the happy-go-lucky stoner, actually developed a character, used enough sympathy psychology in his matches that the crowds would start rallying for his comebacks and expanded his moveset outside of the high-flying stuff, maybe he would be getting that top-shelf push.

Hmm, let's go down the check list for HHH.

Cutting promos: Um, no.

Range of character? Um, does Hunter HAVE an emotion outside of rage?

Sympathy psychology? Seeing as how Hunter is never allowed to look bad, no.

Hunter is not the most over face in the WWF. Not by a long shot. RVD gets bigger pops in his matches.

And I don't even think Rob is that great a worker.

RVD gets pops, yeah, but no one pops for his comebacks, they pop for his spots. That means RVD is not over, RVD's spots are over. There's a major difference and the fans haven't been given any reason so far to rally behind his character. I hope it comes one day because he has major potential, but he's just not quite there yet.

Fans pop for HHH's entrance and his finish, but for the middle of the match, fans tend to sit on their hands.

"How is business up?"

It will be. We'll go in circles on this argument at least until Raw's ratings are released. Get back to me then.

It "will" be.

Thus, it is NOT up yet.

And, RAW's ratings WERE released. Weak bump by any post-PPV standard.

"Ratings aren't up."

Let's wait and see what they were for their first in-house appearance.

Up .3 after a PPV.

Not a good start.

Should I mention that the SD tapings didn't exactly get rave reviews last night?

"No, because IF the nWo makes good numbers, their spots ARE in jeopardy."

Oh please. Hogan, Hall and Nash have to have opponents.

I love this line of thinking. It's up there with "Well, they'll behave because it's the only show in town".

They will try to bury anybody they can.

It's what they do.

Reminds me of a story I heard from Jake Roberts (probably from Beyond the Mat, but I can't swear to that)

A man finds a snake tht is dying in the sun.

He takes the snake to his house and nurses it back to health.

When the snake gets fully healthy, it bites and kills the man.

As the man lays dying, he asks "Why did you do that to me? I saved you life!"

The snake replied "You knew I was a snake when you found me"

"Again, you're assuming that the nWo will make enough money to make the never-ending headaches worth the effort."

Just like you're assuming they won't. We'll see. You may be right, I may be right.

I'm going by the collapse of WCW as the basis for my pessimism.

I see no reason for your optimism.

"A questional assumption, to say the least."

Ditto.

"So why not improve the booking and execution with some of the talent that they have in their developmental territories?"

Because they need fresh faces for an INSTANT shake up. I don't agree with this logic, but obviously the WWF doesn't want a payoff in six months. They want it NOW. I think the NWO is the best way to reach that goal.

And I think signing them is a HORRIBLE precedent and will only cause the WWF problems that, quite frankly, they fully deserve. I almost WANT massive locker room strife just to teach those idiots in Stamford a lesson.

"Why not use young guys who can outwork the three fossils?"

Because workrate has nothing to do with ability to draw money. It's all about crowd reaction and promo ability.

Or, in Hunter's case, having the promoter have a hard-on for you and push you in spite of not being over until the fans eventually cheer for you.

"If they gave Jericho a tiny portion of the push they give the nWo, he'd be ridculously over."

Damn right, but Jericho is doing just fine. He's getting the biggest push in the WWF outside of the NWO right now and he's not immediately running to the midcard like everyone said he would. Chris Jericho is headlining a show featuring Hogan v Rock as a co-main event! Do you realize how much that speaks for him, that he gets to follow Hogan v Rock? If that's not a push, tell me, what is?

How about pushing him as being on the same level as Rock and Austin?

HHH always got that treatment.

On RAW, why was Jericho's name not mentioned UNTIL the last half hour?

Heck, he barely gets mentioned on RAW or Smackdown at all anymore---and he's supposed to be the top guy.

"They won't draw a 2.0 buyrate.

It's been a long time since any of them had any part in a 0.2 buyrate."

It's been a long time since any of them have had an angle.

They have the same angle now that they've had for years.

"If Hall, Hogan, and Nash are negatively affecting just about everyody in the company, then what good are they?"

It's ridiculous that they are affecting people that way without having even done anything bad thus far in this run. Work together. Work hard. Make money. Ignore everything else. It's all petty. And stop complaining. If locker room morale is low right now, it's because the midcarders are judging wrestlers based on their reputation instead of how they are personally treated.

Let's say a guy moves in next door to you with MULTIPLE arrests for child molestation.

Would you trust YOUR kids with him, even though he has done nothing to them at this point?

I think it was well-documented during the inVasion just how ridiculously sensitive the WWF wrestlers can be at times.

No, the WWF was dealing with guys who came from a locker room KNOWN for being out-of-control to a level that management could not handle them.

Thus, the WWF guys treated the WCW guys the same way they treat ONE ANOTHER.

Please note that none of the headaches of WCW left the WWF.

"They won't draw enough to make it worthwhile."

Once again, you're assuming just as much as you accuse me of doing. You may be right, but we'll see.

I have a better shot at being correct.

Let's say WM does as good as last year's did. Can there even be an argument that nWo had a thing to do with a show that sold out about a month before they were even mentioned on WWF TV?

"No, inflicted by signing three cancers who will take away TV time from people who have never been given a tiny fraction of the chance the WWF is giving these people."

Who exactly is not getting TV time that should be that could be making a bigger impact? I want names. I also want creative ideas for those people and suggestions for a Wrestlemania X8 that would draw more than the current card.

Christian has been wasted by the WWF. Horribly wasted.

Ditto Tajiri.

Ditto Edge.

Ditto Hurricane.

Ditto Storm.

Ditto Booker.

And what would draw better than the proposed card?

Hmm, HHH v Jericho is a given. Rock v Angle would be nice. Storm v Edge would do some good business, especially if they take the IC Belt off of Regal and give it back to Edge. Austin v UT would have to be tossed in there, just to give both guys something to do. Page v RVD could be a fun little Euro Title match.

Would do the EXACT SAME level of business (namely, obscenely high), but the WWF would save money by not having to hire those goons and the matches would be better.

"Buyrates are up?

Que?"

You could at least wait for ONE number to be revealed before you declare the NWO non-factors.

You mention buyrates going up as proof of their marketability.

"The ONLY reason NWO might get more buys than Royal Rumble is the resolving of the DirecTV situation."

Well, in that case, the BUYS won't be indicative, rather the BUYRATE.

Point taken.

"Fans make one mistake: Just because something gets a pop doesn't mean they draw."

That's true, but what barometer do you suggest promoters use as an immediate way to gauge how the fans like something. It's funny that you use RVD as a case as someone who is wildly over yet he has yet to really draw a lot of money. You're basing that solely on entrance pops.

No, I'm basing that on crowd noise. I'm basing it on the prevalence of signs and merchandise in spite of his non-push as of late.

"Hacksaw Duggan ALWAYS got good pops.

When was the last time he drew anybody to an arena?"

Not saying he could, but when's the last time he headlined?

He hasn't headlined in years because nobody in their right mind thinks he can possibly draw.

"It's up to the nWo guys to show that they've changed."

Read Hogan's WWF.com interview and whether you think he's sincere or not, you've gotta agree that the image he's portraying is the totally right one.

Heck, Bill Clinton could charm the socks off of anybody.

Doesn't mean I'd trust the guy.

Hogan's actions speak FAR louder than his words.

"Several of the WWF guys dealt with them in WCW and found them to be, and rightly so, unpleasant people to deal with."

And Jericho has said he will respect them because a lot has changed since 1998. If Jericho, who in the past was been held down more than anyone currently in the wrestling business, can swallow his pride and be a pro, why can't anyone else?

Who says they WON'T work with them? They can say that signing them is idiotic and will hurt their careers, but nobody has said I won't work with them.

"It's not the WWFs guys' job to be open-minded. It's the nWo guys' job to build bridges."

That's true, but give them a little time.

When you have Hall allegedly telling the Duds that he can't wait to kick out of their finisher, then you're not exactly starting off on the right foot.

It's like Buff Bagwell all over again.

"My only hope now is that the roster split will keep the nWo on one side of the roster so I can skip that show every week.

-=Mike"

See, the WWF is doing something that would please you as a fan, yet you barely acknowledge it. Criticize when warranted, but also give credit when due.

Why should I praise something that hasn't happened yet and has been delayed repeatedly?

-=Mike

February 21, 2002

I would be remiss if I didn't comment on this RVD talk:

"Well, let's see. If he learned to cut a promo"

Cut a good one on Heat (the first time he's gotten the mic in...?) Always cut good ones in ECW (especially Barely Legal) Just because they DON'T give him the mic...doesn't mean he can't do it.

"showed range outside of the happy-go-lucky stoner"

He started too, in his program with Jericho for the title (you know the one where the fans were going crazy...and then they scrapped it all together and sent RVD to curtain jerk) He played the opposite of the stoner. He was the focused and determined challenger looking for the title he thought he deserved (Remembre the Smackdown where he attacked Jericho?)

"used enough sympathy psychology in his matches that the crowds would start rallying for his comebacks and expanded his moveset outside of the high-flying stuff, maybe he would be getting that top-shelf push."

I heard more crowd reaction for RVD to break out Goldusts holds...then I did for the entire HHH/Angle match at No Way Out.

"RVD gets pops, yeah, but no one pops for his comebacks, they pop for his spots. "

See above.

"That means RVD is not over, RVD's spots are over. "

Alot of people say that. They say the only reason he's over at all is because of his easily repeatable RVD chant. They also say that only ECW mutants cheer for RVD.

Of course they are all wrong. No on had better crowd reaction during their match at No Way Out than RVD. And it wasn't all for the spots. People were into the match and WANTED Rvd to win. Like when the crowd though RVD won the belt from Jericho on Raw...They went Bananna!

"There's a major difference and the fans haven't been given any reason so far to rally behind his character."

That's the WWFs fault. The crowd in fully behind this guy and yet they give him no direction. The WWF would rather rehash Edge vs. Regal on a pole than give RVD a favorable spot.

"I hope it comes one day because he has major potential, but he's just not quite there yet."

I'd love to see what the definition of "being there" is. If RVD had been pushed to win the Rumble...and Main Event Mania...the marks would have eaten it up (he's at least AS over as HHH, and HHH got THAT big a push).

If RVD were positioned against the NWO...he would get a great reaction to.

All this "he's not ready yet" bunk should be stated as "they're not ready to push him yet".

No matter how much (Main Eventing No Mercy) or how little (curtain jerking against Test) the WWF gives him to work with...he remains over.

February 21, 2002

I heard more crowd reaction for RVD to break out Goldusts holds...then I did for the entire HHH/Angle match at No Way Out.

That was probably because Goldust seemed to leave those holds on forever.

February 21, 2002

Get off of my cloud Tony.

February 21, 2002

Get off of my cloud Tony.

What are you saying? I'm not picking up what you're saying.

February 21, 2002

I'm saying that I'm riding high on my RVD cloud...and then you come along and try to bring me down.

It's sarcasm.

February 21, 2002

Oh, ok. I thought you were pissed. Sometimes it's hard to tell which is which.

February 21, 2002

What exactly is the harm in them coming to the arena in their NWO gear? They probably just did that to make a good impression by coming to the arena prepared and ready to go.

February 21, 2002

Well...they were late.

And as far as being dressed already goes:

As I understand the locker room in the WWF is one big place that everyone uses. Thereby giving the illusion that no one person is better than the rest (no private dressing rooms)

Given the pre-conceived notions of the NWO by the WWF wrestlers...I guess they could see this as a slap in the face. Like they ARE too good to change in the locker room with the boys.

Remember WCW had a system that saw guys like hogan, hall and nash not changing with the boys...cause they were "BIG' stars.

February 21, 2002

I didn't even know there was nWo gear, except Hogan's nWo weight-belt. It seems like there was a fit over a t-shirt with nWo on it.

February 21, 2002

? I dunno.. these backstage stories just don't quite add up sometimes.

maybe because we are being worked?????

well yeah, it's very possible, I speculated on exactly that earlier in this thread

February 21, 2002

"He has failed, spectacularly, to do this for a while."

Which is exactly why he's at least attempting to shake things up.

"The nWo was announced WEEKS ago. They didn't make a live appearance until Sunday, but the WWF has hyped them for weeks."

Because it was announced that they WOULD NOT BE ON TV UNTIL NO WAY OUT! They gave the viewers no reason to watch in the interim. And the usual post-PPV bump wasn't as strong as it had been for the previous three PPVs, but if you look at the ratings pattern, the viewership increased throughout the show. That's a good sign. It means that maybe, just maybe, fans tuned in to the Hogan-Rock segment and liked what they saw and decided to give it a chance. The buzz created there also directly affected the HHH-Angle-Jericho segment and gave it a high rating also, which means that they are accomplishing their goal here. I agree that in 2000, had they done some things differently, like making Jericho the limo driver, giving Benoit a sustained program with Austin during HHH's absence, aligning Kurt and Stephanie for good and keeping Edge and Christian in the top storylines like they were for a short while, then they would have tons of top talent right now and would still be peaking, both in terms of TV ratings and buyrates. HHH v Jericho in summer of 2000 actually drew an 8.4 quarter hour! That's amazing! But anyway, what's done is done and so Vince is trying to move ahead here. You heard the way the crowd embraced Hogan. You saw all the nWo signs. You saw the NWO t-shirts in the crowd, which is exactly the same barometer you said you used to gauge RVD's heat. People are interested. People are talking. Ratings will go up, I can almost guarantee you. If you recall, the first week Kevin Nash showed up at Scott Hall's side on Nitro, RAW won the ratings, but the next week, they lost and for the next 82 weeks, they continued to lose viewers. A storyline creates momentum. We haven't seen the NWO climax yet. We've only seen the exposition. Once the plot thickens, the ratings bump will increase even more.

"This past RAW had a whopping .3 increase over last week.

.3 increase after a PPV?

That's weak.

And, again, any increase in the NWO buyrate woud largely be due to DirecTV being back on board."

Well, like I said, we'll go by the buyrate instead of the number of buys. Also, look at the quarter hours and how they fared there.

"Nash's booking caused a lot of the problems."

Yes it did, but the damage he did was still reparable.

"Nash was a MUCH bigger part of it than Booker.

Even when he was World Champ, Booker was pushed beneath Scott Steiner and Goldberg (i.e Jericho today in regards to Austin and HHH)"

That's certainly an arguable point, but Kevin Nash wasn't pushed ahead of Booker. He spent a few months "coaching" the NBT for Chrissakes. All the while, Booker and Steiner are programmed over the World title.

"Why has he been on TV so rarely?

Because he can't stay clean enough to appear regularly.

WCW HOPED his appearance a SuperBrawl 2K would pop a buyrate.

It didn't."

Because there was no story behind the match. Name value helps, but make no mistake about it -- STORYLINES DRAW MONEY! Not wrestlers. Name value brings fans in but angles keep them there. There's not a wrestler alive that can draw on name power alone, and if Austin and Rock could, Raw would still be popping 6.5 ratings every week.

"I guess I missed these big numbers Hogan popped post-1999."

See below and I'll explain.

"Will it be succesful?

Yup.

Any more successful than Rock v Jericho, Rock v Angle, Rock v HHH, Rock v Austin, Rock v UT, heck Rock v Flair?"

Yep. Flair hasn't drawn a 5.3 QH since he's been in the WWF, has he? There ya go. I hate that that's the way it is, but that is the way it is. The ratings weren't really affected one way or the other by the awesome Rock-Jericho feud, which is really a shame. Angle has been proven a bomb as a draw, at least until he gains some more experience. Rock v HHH and Rock v Austin are both incredibly overdone and tired. Rock v UT didn't create much buzz going into No Way Out. Rock v Flair could probably draw huge though, but Flair's not known nearly as well in the mainstream as Hogan is.

"Hogan brings nothing to the table but nostalgia---and nostalgia does little for me."

Well, hopefully it'll do more than a little for the WWF over the course of the next six months.

"The event already sold out before the nWo was ever mentioned. The buyrate would've been absurdly high with or without them."

Debatable at best.

"And keep in mind, Hogan likely drove away as many fans from WCW s he ever drew."

Very true, but the Crockett crowd is barely even watching anymore and had already left WCW long before Hogan entered the company.

"Rock v HHH or Rock v Austin would've been much safer bets---and that's with Rock v Austin being overdone as WM main event."

I don't know. I know I don't know every fan in the universe, but all the ones I know seem to be tired of both matches.

"WWF has to waste Rock with Hogan. They'll have to waste somebody with Hall and somebody with Nash--so, we get 2 likely duds and one probable dud right there, when the only WWF main eventer who tends to suck at that level is Undertaker."

Whether it's a good Wrestlemania or not, it'll be a huge Wrestlemania.

"I see the WWF's shows becoming the same unwatchable mess that WCW programming was from about 1997 on."

Difference being the WWF has stars established outside of the NWO while WCW only had Flair and Sting.

"And WHY was there never a blowoff win?

Any guesses as to who shot it down?

Anybody?

Hello?"

Oh, I'm sure it was Hogan, but I'd highly doubt there's a 100% creative control clause in his WWF contract. His complaints just may fall on deaf ears.

"The nWo got over because it was a neat idea. It was not over because Hall and Nash were involved (any WWF upper mid-carder would've done just as well)."

You can say that for a lot of successful angles through history, although everyone around at the time has said that Scott Hall was a big part of the think tank for a lot of the details involving the group and that he came up with the whole Sting metamorphosis idea.

"When has that EVER been?"

1994. 1996-1998. Since then, he's been on TV less than any wrestler in the business who considers themselves active.

"Amazing that the WWF was on the verge of bankruptcy and house show attendance was viewed as being abysmal during that era."

Then, Nash was turned tweener and recaptured a lot of his mid-1994 magic and business turned around. He wasn't the sole reason, but he was a big part of it. Bret was main eventing again and Shawn Michaels was back after the fake concussion so business was up. The WWF was the clear-cut ratings winner every week until the NWO started.

"I'm not sure where you get your figures from, but they definitely don't mesh with the actual reality."

It's pretty well-documented that house show business was booming during 1996 for the WWF. It was one of their best years ever for arena shows as Shawn wasn't much of a ratings-grabber, but did some great numbers on houses.

"Nash was a major-league bomb as WWF Champ.

He was a BIGGER bomb as WCW Champ."

Yeah, but do YOU see him holding the title now? Just because someone isn't World title material doesn't mean they have no value.

"WCW was sure that he was money for a long time. Of course, they also went out of business."

Why don't I use the same line of thinking with another few wrestlers:

Billy Kidman was hired by WCW. Of course, they also went out of business.

Jeff Jarrett was the top heel in WCW. Of course, they also went out of business.

Booker T was the World champion toward the end. Of course, they also went out of business.

"Interesting fact---that GB v Hogan match drew roughly the same attendance as Royal Rumble '97 (keep in mind, the WWF was getting decimated by WCW in '97)."

True, but that Nitro meant more to business in the future than the '97 Rumble did. It's almost a guarantee that anytime the WWF runs a large venue, regardless of how business is doing that they will either sell out or generate an impressive crowd. Wrestlemania VII scheduled at the LA Memorial Coliseum is an obvious exception.

"Did it draw? Well, when your biggest money match can't draw much more than a WWF PPV that wasn't exactly superb, you might have a problem."

This may not matter, but how many people does the Georgia Dome seat anyway? And who in their right mind considers a 40,000 strong crowd drawing the biggest gate in company history a failure?

"Hogan v Sting killed Sting's heat."

Hogan's fault here but Hogan's not on the creative team now.

"And let's take a look at Hogan's total WCW run.

1994 --- Didn't Draw"

Improved numbers, but not landscape changing.

"1995 --- Ditto"

The improvement was strong enough to get the AOK to run Nitro, even if he wasn't bulletproof anymore.

"1996 --- nWo formed. WCW did well.

1997 --- WCW does well.

1998 --- WCW crashes.

1999 --- WCW burns"

Yes, true, but Hogan v Flair at SuperBrawl IX drew almost as well as Vince v Austin did that month, which surprised virtually everyone. Hogan then turned face, which pretty much killed his drawing power in WCW. Just because they're not getting WWF numbers doesn't mean their failing.

"2000 --- WCW shrivels up

2001 --- WCW ceases to exist."

Yes, different environment, different time, different situation, different atmosphere, different contract terms, different main event landscape.

"So, for a whopping two years of his WCW stint (coincidentally, also coinciding with the hottest angle in wrestling), Hogan "drew".

Funny that e had such a hard time doing it before---or after."

NO ONE in WCW was drawing. It wasn't just limited to Hulk Hogan.

"Hogan has worlds of power over his character and decides what he does."

That's not what I asked. I didn't ask to you evaluate his booking talent, I asked you if he has placed in an angle designed to draw money since the end of the NWO.

"His feud with Kidman could have worked---if Hogan allowed Billy to look like a potential threat."

Hogan was also face when he should have been heel since he can't exactly get sympathy against someone smaller than him. Yes, Hogan should have sold more, but that was only part of the equation.

"If Hogan jobbed cleanly to Sting in '97, Sting might have had heat in 1998."

He had heat, just not the level you expected. He probably should have been bigger than Austin in '98 after the way he was set up to draw, but two things:

1. I never heard ANYTHING specific that the reason the finish went down the way it did was because Hogan refused to job cleanly.

2. Hogan's not booking his own angles anymore, so what does it matter?

"Hogan's program with Warrior didn't exactly set the world on fire."

Yeah, but that wasn't ALL Hogan, although he was a big part of it. Could anyone at all draw money against the Warrior?

"The crowd pops for them because they're old guys they kind of remember."

NWO merchandise is currently the biggest seller they have, so that's a good way to come out of the gate, wouldn't you say?

"They get the kind of in-ring heat that Flair would get if he wrestled regularly."

Yet everyone seems to want Flair in the ring all the time. I love Flair, he's my favorite wrestler ever, and there are still a few big matches left in him, but he has never been the draw Hogan has been. Ever.

"And thinking short-term is never a good idea. To make money in the biz, you HAVE to think long-term."

Yeah, but I'm thinking the short-term boost is part of a long-term plan. Maybe not, but we'll see. Just don't shoot it down until it actually happens.

"No, but the fans were during his heel run until those matches. Go back and watch the tapes. The crowd was APATHETIC for him and the WWF pushed him FAR more than his level of being over warranted."

Some have argued the same about Chris Jericho and Chris Benoit. Just saying.

"It took Foley to finally make HHH a star."

And Foley retired immediately after the feud and HHH didn't lose his heat -- he actually gained heat.

"Of course, Hunter already had 3 World Title reigns before he actualy GOT over---so again, his coments are laughable."

Revisionist history at its best. I remember some pretty loud boos when he was squashing Vince McMahon and he was the first non-Vince guy to get the "asshole" chants, and that was before Summerslam '99.

"He doesn't let his opponents look good. When he teamed with Austin, Steve ended up playing Hunter's lackey, for God's sake."

He also allowed Austin to drop him from a forklift and spent a healthy portion of his peak year feuding with Benoit, Jericho and Angle. He bladed for Jericho and sold like his life depended on it. He sold A LOT for Benoit. He worked a program with a rookie in Kurt Angle that a lot of top guys would have refused.

"No, it's vastly different. Jericho had heat. Hunter had none.

Hunter was allowed to beat everybody and do so fairly cleanly. Jericho was not."

The only top guy HHH ever beat cleanly was Foley, and it was the right business move since he was on the way out. He never beat the Rock clean. He beat Austin clean once, WAY after he had established himself.

"Hmm, let's go down the check list for HHH.

Cutting promos: Um, no."

Better as a heel yes, but not totally ineffective.

"Range of character? Um, does Hunter HAVE an emotion outside of rage?"

Yeah, he sure seemed ANGRY when he smiled huge and hugged Stephanie when she told him she was pregnant.

"Sympathy psychology? Seeing as how Hunter is never allowed to look bad, no."

What do you want him to do? Get in zero offense and job to everyone on the card? HHH sells about a hundred times more than Austin and no one gets on his back.

"Hunter is not the most over face in the WWF. Not by a long shot. RVD gets bigger pops in his matches."

For his spots, yes. But that's it. The Hardy Boyz had the exact same kind of heat in 2000.

"And I don't even think Rob is that great a worker."

I think he's awesome actually, but I'm looking at this from a business point of view. Yeah, he deserves a compelling angle, but if he can adapt to the style that everyone else in the company uses and show that his character is as resilient as Chris Jericho's, meaning he can job left and right and not lose heat, then he's proven that his heat isn't totally fragile.

"Fans pop for HHH's entrance and his finish, but for the middle of the match, fans tend to sit on their hands."

Just like they've been doing for everyone but the Rock's matches lately. The WWF has played to some dead crowds as of late. It's not just HHH.

"Thus, it is NOT up yet.

And, RAW's ratings WERE released. Weak bump by any post-PPV standard."

One show. You seem a little too anxious for this to fail.

"Up .3 after a PPV.

Not a good start."

Quarter hours tell you about them specifically.

"Should I mention that the SD tapings didn't exactly get rave reviews last night?"

No, because only smarks give Smackdown reports. No problem with that, but it's not a good barometer.

"I love this line of thinking. It's up there with "Well, they'll behave because it's the only show in town"."

Well, the NWO DOES have to have opponents. No one's spot is in danger. If it was, Jericho would already be midcarding.

"They will try to bury anybody they can.

It's what they do.

Reminds me of a story I heard from Jake Roberts (probably from Beyond the Mat, but I can't swear to that)

A man finds a snake tht is dying in the sun.

He takes the snake to his house and nurses it back to health.

When the snake gets fully healthy, it bites and kills the man.

As the man lays dying, he asks "Why did you do that to me? I saved you life!"

The snake replied "You knew I was a snake when you found me""

Jake Roberts -- what a valiant source of information! Anyway, I agree that the NWO has played politics in the past and buried guys, but that's when they had full creative control. They don't anymore.

"I'm going by the collapse of WCW as the basis for my pessimism."

And that's warranted to a certain extent, but WCW 2001 and WWF 2002 are not one and the same. Different wrestlers, different management, different time period.

"I see no reason for your optimism."

It's cautious, but I haven't been given a reason NOT to be optimistic yet. When there is one, I won't be anymore.

"And I think signing them is a HORRIBLE precedent and will only cause the WWF problems that, quite frankly, they fully deserve. I almost WANT massive locker room strife just to teach those idiots in Stamford a lesson."

Is that really it or is it just so you'll be "right"? Really think about that.

"Or, in Hunter's case, having the promoter have a hard-on for you and push you in spite of not being over until the fans eventually cheer for you."

We've already had this argument. See above.

"How about pushing him as being on the same level as Rock and Austin?"

Pinned the Rock six times. Pinned Austin twice. Has had PPV main events with both. Was the clear-cut winner in both feuds. I don't see how he's not being presented at their level. He cheats because he's a heel.

"HHH always got that treatment."

He cheated just as much as Jericho and had lots more interference.

"On RAW, why was Jericho's name not mentioned UNTIL the last half hour?"

Agreed.

"Heck, he barely gets mentioned on RAW or Smackdown at all anymore---and he's supposed to be the top guy."

Agreed.

"They have the same angle now that they've had for years."

No, they actually don't. It's been six years since we've seen the original NWO.

"Let's say a guy moves in next door to you with MULTIPLE arrests for child molestation.

Would you trust YOUR kids with him, even though he has done nothing to them at this point?"

He's paid his debt to society. I wouldn't leave my kids alone with him, but I wouldn't condemn him either. People can change.

"No, the WWF was dealing with guys who came from a locker room KNOWN for being out-of-control to a level that management could not handle them.

Thus, the WWF guys treated the WCW guys the same way they treat ONE ANOTHER."

And threatened sodomy on a referee who flew first class. So petty.

"Please note that none of the headaches of WCW left the WWF."

Clarify?

"I have a better shot at being correct.

Let's say WM does as good as last year's did. Can there even be an argument that nWo had a thing to do with a show that sold out about a month before they were even mentioned on WWF TV?"

Yep, because business was much better at this point last year. If they draw an equal buyrate to last year, then it's even more impressive this time, considering how much TV ratings have dropped.

"Christian has been wasted by the WWF. Horribly wasted."

Christian is a great character, but is a severely overrated wrestler who punches and kicks and doesn't do much else. I think he could have been more, but it would take another few years for him to be perceived at the same level as Scott Hall or Kevin Nash.

"Ditto Tajiri."

Huge when he first came in, fizzled out quickly because he was too repetitive.

"Ditto Edge."

Getting the push of a lifetime, still not getting over very well.

"Ditto Hurricane."

Comedy wrestler.

"Ditto Storm."

Gets next to no crowd reaction. Could be a star one day, but there's no way he could be as established as Hogan by WM.

"Ditto Booker."

Millions of chances over the past two years, failed every time. Partially his fault, partially not.

"Hmm, HHH v Jericho is a given. Rock v Angle would be nice."

We'll see what draws higher. This is a step backward if No Mercy 2000 or No Way Out 2001 drew higher than this year's Wrestlemania end up doing. Rock v Angle headlined both of those shows. And HHH v Jericho isn't going anywhere. Funny that you say HHH isn't over, yet you claim him in the main against Jericho will draw.

"Storm v Edge would do some good business, especially if they take the IC Belt off of Regal and give it back to Edge."

The I-C title is worthless anymore since it changes hands every month for the most part.

"Austin v UT would have to be tossed in there, just to give both guys something to do."

0.84 at Judgment Day.

"Page v RVD could be a fun little Euro Title match."

Good match? Yeah. Good draw? No.

"Would do the EXACT SAME level of business (namely, obscenely high), but the WWF would save money by not having to hire those goons and the matches would be better."

Well, I guess you think so, but we'll see.

"You mention buyrates going up as proof of their marketability."

No I didn't. bps21 mentioned it in his post that I responded to.

"No, I'm basing that on crowd noise. I'm basing it on the prevalence of signs and merchandise in spite of his non-push as of late."

Just like the NWO.

"He hasn't headlined in years because nobody in their right mind thinks he can possibly draw."

No way he could, but I bet he could get a good rating out of a well-promoted title match, or at least he could have last time he was on TV.

"Heck, Bill Clinton could charm the socks off of anybody.

Doesn't mean I'd trust the guy."

You don't have to trust him. Wrestling isn't exactly a wholesome business.

"Hogan's actions speak FAR louder than his words."

So give him time to prove himself and then judge him.

"Who says they WON'T work with them? They can say that signing them is idiotic and will hurt their careers, but nobody has said I won't work with them."

No, but they sure are whining to the sheets a lot about something they've only heard about.

"When you have Hall allegedly telling the Duds that he can't wait to kick out of their finisher, then you're not exactly starting off on the right foot."

See my post on this earlier on in the thread.

"It's like Buff Bagwell all over again."

Only Hall hasn't had an atrocious match on Raw and started a petty fisticuffs with Shane Helms.

"Why should I praise something that hasn't happened yet and has been delayed repeatedly?

-=Mike"

JR said it's coming after Wrestlemania, so I'm sure you'll be happy. At least I hope.

February 22, 2002

"He has failed, spectacularly, to do this for a while."

Which is exactly why he's at least attempting to shake things up.

But ALL of his ideas since about WM have tanked---and most of those at least looked good on paper.

This doesn't even look good on paper.

"The nWo was announced WEEKS ago. They didn't make a live appearance until Sunday, but the WWF has hyped them for weeks."

Because it was announced that they WOULD NOT BE ON TV UNTIL NO WAY OUT! They gave the viewers no reason to watch in the interim. And the usual post-PPV bump wasn't as strong as it had been for the previous three PPVs, but if you look at the ratings pattern, the viewership increased throughout the show.

The Rock/Hogan segment and the overrun did the same number (a 5.3)---so viewership obviously had to drop between those two segments.

That's a good sign. It means that maybe, just maybe, fans tuned in to the Hogan-Rock segment and liked what they saw and decided to give it a chance. The buzz created there also directly affected the HHH-Angle-Jericho segment and gave it a high rating also, which means that they are accomplishing their goal here. I agree that in 2000, had they done some things differently, like making Jericho the limo driver, giving Benoit a sustained program with Austin during HHH's absence, aligning Kurt and Stephanie for good and keeping Edge and Christian in the top storylines like they were for a short while, then they would have tons of top talent right now and would still be peaking, both in terms of TV ratings and buyrates. HHH v Jericho in summer of 2000 actually drew an 8.4 quarter hour! That's amazing! But anyway, what's done is done and so Vince is trying to move ahead here. You heard the way the crowd embraced Hogan. You saw all the nWo signs. You saw the NWO t-shirts in the crowd, which is exactly the same barometer you said you used to gauge RVD's heat.

Except that Rob has MAINTAINED his heat for months now with, at best, marginal pushes from the WWF.

And, RVD has never been considered to be a backstage cancer by anybody.

Also, he's markedly younger, considerably better in the ring, and in my never humble opinion, dramatically more marketable.

People are interested. People are talking. Ratings will go up, I can almost guarantee you.

If more people tuned in tonight's abortion of a show, the ratings will tank big-time.

The WWF is making the same mistakes WCW did---ignoring the in-ring product (where they excel) fo backstage crap that they DON'T excel at.

If you recall, the first week Kevin Nash showed up at Scott Hall's side on Nitro, RAW won the ratings, but the next week, they lost and for the next 82 weeks, they continued to lose viewers. A storyline creates momentum. We haven't seen the NWO climax yet. We've only seen the exposition. Once the plot thickens, the ratings bump will increase even more.

I heard this with the Invasion angle. Didn't work.

And WCW and ECW were more marketable entities than the nWo.

"This past RAW had a whopping .3 increase over last week.

.3 increase after a PPV?

That's weak.

And, again, any increase in the NWO buyrate woud largely be due to DirecTV being back on board."

Well, like I said, we'll go by the buyrate instead of the number of buys. Also, look at the quarter hours and how they fared there.

"Nash's booking caused a lot of the problems."

Yes it did, but the damage he did was still reparable.

No, it wasn't.

When you completely lose momentum and alienate your fan base, it's brutally difficult to get them back.

"Nash was a MUCH bigger part of it than Booker.

Even when he was World Champ, Booker was pushed beneath Scott Steiner and Goldberg (i.e Jericho today in regards to Austin and HHH)"

That's certainly an arguable point, but Kevin Nash wasn't pushed ahead of Booker. He spent a few months "coaching" the NBT for Chrissakes. All the while, Booker and Steiner are programmed over the World title.

Nash beat Booker for the World Title, then he and Page basically handed the various members of the NBT their butts in World Tag Title matches.

"Why has he been on TV so rarely?

Because he can't stay clean enough to appear regularly.

WCW HOPED his appearance a SuperBrawl 2K would pop a buyrate.

It didn't."

Because there was no story behind the match. Name value helps, but make no mistake about it -- STORYLINES DRAW MONEY! Not wrestlers. Name value brings fans in but angles keep them there. There's not a wrestler alive that can draw on name power alone, and if Austin and Rock could, Raw would still be popping 6.5 ratings every week.

Yes, storylines are necessary.

And, I defy you to find a single re-hash with any kind of sustained ratings success.

The reformation of dX didn't lead to the WWF doing great in the ratings.

The reformation of the Horsemen gave Nitro a one-night boost.

"I guess I missed these big numbers Hogan popped post-1999."

See below and I'll explain.

"Will it be succesful?

Yup.

Any more successful than Rock v Jericho, Rock v Angle, Rock v HHH, Rock v Austin, Rock v UT, heck Rock v Flair?"

Yep. Flair hasn't drawn a 5.3 QH since he's been in the WWF, has he? There ya go.

Flair isn't a wrestler and is on TV MUCH less than the nWo.

He's also old and shouldn't be in the ring, but that's another issue.

I hate that that's the way it is, but that is the way it is. The ratings weren't really affected one way or the other by the awesome Rock-Jericho feud, which is really a shame.

Actually, judging by the WWF's recent numbers, maintaining a holding pattern IS an accomplishment.

Angle has been proven a bomb as a draw, at least until he gains some more experience. Rock v HHH and Rock v Austin are both incredibly overdone and tired. Rock v UT didn't create much buzz going into No Way Out. Rock v Flair could probably draw huge though, but Flair's not known nearly as well in the mainstream as Hogan is.

I disagree, seriously.

"Hogan brings nothing to the table but nostalgia---and nostalgia does little for me."

Well, hopefully it'll do more than a little for the WWF over the course of the next six months.

If it does anything, I'll be the most amazed man on Earth.

He hasn't proven an ability to draw in many years.

"The event already sold out before the nWo was ever mentioned. The buyrate would've been absurdly high with or without them."

Debatable at best.

What's debatable?

WrestleMania draws a huge number every year regardless of the show (WM XV drew a very good buyrate in spite of being a crap show).

And the sell-out isn't a debate.

"And keep in mind, Hogan likely drove away as many fans from WCW s he ever drew."

Very true, but the Crockett crowd is barely even watching anymore and had already left WCW long before Hogan entered the company.

Shall we go into the hemhoragging of fans WCW suffered from 1998 until its death in 2001?

Nash and Hogan were very large reasons behind it. People got tired of watching them.

"Rock v HHH or Rock v Austin would've been much safer bets---and that's with Rock v Austin being overdone as WM main event."

I don't know. I know I don't know every fan in the universe, but all the ones I know seem to be tired of both matches.

It would still pop a ridiculous number.

"WWF has to waste Rock with Hogan. They'll have to waste somebody with Hall and somebody with Nash--so, we get 2 likely duds and one probable dud right there, when the only WWF main eventer who tends to suck at that level is Undertaker."

Whether it's a good Wrestlemania or not, it'll be a huge Wrestlemania.

It would've been huge regardless.

Canadian crowds are hot and a sold-out SkyDome would've helped the weakest matches.

"I see the WWF's shows becoming the same unwatchable mess that WCW programming was from about 1997 on."

Difference being the WWF has stars established outside of the NWO while WCW only had Flair and Sting.

WWF has Austin and Rock. Not a lot of the others are major cross-over tars.

"And WHY was there never a blowoff win?

Any guesses as to who shot it down?

Anybody?

Hello?"

Oh, I'm sure it was Hogan, but I'd highly doubt there's a 100% creative control clause in his WWF contract. His complaints just may fall on deaf ears.

If he bitches enough, he gets his way.

"The nWo got over because it was a neat idea. It was not over because Hall and Nash were involved (any WWF upper mid-carder would've done just as well)."

You can say that for a lot of successful angles through history, although everyone around at the time has said that Scott Hall was a big part of the think tank for a lot of the details involving the group and that he came up with the whole Sting metamorphosis idea.

Every thing I've read lays the angle at the feet of Taylor and Orndorff.

"When has that EVER been?"

1994. 1996-1998. Since then, he's been on TV less than any wrestler in the business who considers themselves active.

He didn't draw in 1994.

And in 1996-98, the nWo drew. Again, no Scott Hall and there wouldn't have been a difference whatsoever.

"Amazing that the WWF was on the verge of bankruptcy and house show attendance was viewed as being abysmal during that era."

Then, Nash was turned tweener and recaptured a lot of his mid-1994 magic and business turned around.

No, it really, really didn't.

He wasn't the sole reason, but he was a big part of it. Bret was main eventing again and Shawn Michaels was back after the fake concussion so business was up. The WWF was the clear-cut ratings winner every week until the NWO started.

The WWF was helped by a WCW product that was abysmal due to the presence of a certain guy who the WWF mistakenly hired recently.

"I'm not sure where you get your figures from, but they definitely don't mesh with the actual reality."

It's pretty well-documented that house show business was booming during 1996 for the WWF. It was one of their best years ever for arena shows as Shawn wasn't much of a ratings-grabber, but did some great numbers on houses.

And in 1996, Hall and Nash weren't there.

"Nash was a major-league bomb as WWF Champ.

He was a BIGGER bomb as WCW Champ."

Yeah, but do YOU see him holding the title now? Just because someone isn't World title material doesn't mean they have no value.

He couldn't draw. The WWF tried EVERYTHING with him. He could get POPS---but he couldn't draw fans to the arena.

"WCW was sure that he was money for a long time. Of course, they also went out of business."

Why don't I use the same line of thinking with another few wrestlers:

Billy Kidman was hired by WCW. Of course, they also went out of business.

Kidman: Never a major part of any storylines.

Jeff Jarrett was the top heel in WCW. Of course, they also went out of business.

JJ couldn't draw to save his life. Never could.

Booker T was the World champion toward the end. Of course, they also went out of business.

Wasn't treated as being on the same level as Steiner until, well, he beat him on the final Nitro.

"Interesting fact---that GB v Hogan match drew roughly the same attendance as Royal Rumble '97 (keep in mind, the WWF was getting decimated by WCW in '97)."

True, but that Nitro meant more to business in the future than the '97 Rumble did.

True---it was the single biggest mistake WCW ever made.

It's almost a guarantee that anytime the WWF runs a large venue, regardless of how business is doing that they will either sell out or generate an impressive crowd. Wrestlemania VII scheduled at the LA Memorial Coliseum is an obvious exception.

The WWF almost never goes to big arenas when they're doing poorly. Which is why in 1997, you saw so few WWF shows in arenas that held a large number of people.

"Did it draw? Well, when your biggest money match can't draw much more than a WWF PPV that wasn't exactly superb, you might have a problem."

This may not matter, but how many people does the Georgia Dome seat anyway? And who in their right mind considers a 40,000 strong crowd drawing the biggest gate in company history a failure?

It wasn't a sell-out.

And who considers it a failure?

Me.

Pissing away a program that could've possily drawn for months (then again, GB wasn't exactly a compelling character) for a one-shot pay-off is idiotic business.

"Hogan v Sting killed Sting's heat."

Hogan's fault here but Hogan's not on the creative team now.

Do you think Hogan won't worm his way into that?

He always does.

"And let's take a look at Hogan's total WCW run.

1994 --- Didn't Draw"

Improved numbers, but not landscape changing.

Not really improved. Heck, 1994 sowed the seeds for WCW's death.

"1995 --- Ditto"

The improvement was strong enough to get the AOK to run Nitro, even if he wasn't bulletproof anymore.

There wasn't an improvement.

"1996 --- nWo formed. WCW did well.

1997 --- WCW does well.

1998 --- WCW crashes.

1999 --- WCW burns"

Yes, true, but Hogan v Flair at SuperBrawl IX drew almost as well as Vince v Austin did that month, which surprised virtually everyone. Hogan then turned face, which pretty much killed his drawing power in WCW. Just because they're not getting WWF numbers doesn't mean their failing.

They were losing money hand over fist(about $20M in 1999---a shocking number at the time).

They were failing.

"2000 --- WCW shrivels up

2001 --- WCW ceases to exist."

Yes, different environment, different time, different situation, different atmosphere, different contract terms, different main event landscape.

Guys in the back who won't work with others. Guys in the back who can't work matches STILL kept in high card positions.

"So, for a whopping two years of his WCW stint (coincidentally, also coinciding with the hottest angle in wrestling), Hogan "drew".

Funny that e had such a hard time doing it before---or after."

NO ONE in WCW was drawing. It wasn't just limited to Hulk Hogan.

But Hogan is supposed to be a draw.

I can say Austin is a draw. When the WWF was at its nadir, the ONLY guys who drew fans at all were HBK and Austin.

I can say Rock is a draw. When Austin went down and Rock was the top draw, the WWF did very well.

What did Hogan and Nash do when WCW started to go south? Well,Hogan got injured and took numerous vacations.

"Hogan has worlds of power over his character and decides what he does."

That's not what I asked. I didn't ask to you evaluate his booking talent, I asked you if he has placed in an angle designed to draw money since the end of the NWO.

No---but it's LARGELY because he WON'T do it.

If he shoots down angles and he's thus stuck with lame ones, whose fault is it?

"His feud with Kidman could have worked---if Hogan allowed Billy to look like a potential threat."

Hogan was also face when he should have been heel since he can't exactly get sympathy against someone smaller than him. Yes, Hogan should have sold more, but that was only part of the equation.

It was poorly booked, but Hogan could have decided to be a heel---but he didn't want to do it.

"If Hogan jobbed cleanly to Sting in '97, Sting might have had heat in 1998."

He had heat, just not the level you expected. He probably should have been bigger than Austin in '98 after the way he was set up to draw, but two things:

1. I never heard ANYTHING specific that the reason the finish went down the way it did was because Hogan refused to job cleanly.

Hogan was, no doubt, behind the "quick count" thing that ended up getting botched.

And no way Sting calls a match where Hogan just annihilates him for almost the entire contest.

2. Hogan's not booking his own angles anymore, so what does it matter?

Because he will try to do so.

It's what he does.

"Hogan's program with Warrior didn't exactly set the world on fire."

Yeah, but that wasn't ALL Hogan, although he was a big part of it. Could anyone at all draw money against the Warrior?

Austin could have.

Rock could have.

Hogan could not.

"The crowd pops for them because they're old guys they kind of remember."

NWO merchandise is currently the biggest seller they have, so that's a good way to come out of the gate, wouldn't you say?

The nWo shirt was ALWAYS a big seller for WCW, even in 1999.

Didn't exactly lead to good houses.

"They get the kind of in-ring heat that Flair would get if he wrestled regularly."

Yet everyone seems to want Flair in the ring all the time.

Not I.

I love Flair, he's my favorite wrestler ever, and there are still a few big matches left in him, but he has never been the draw Hogan has been. Ever.

He kept the NWA afloat. When things were looking their worst for the NWA, Flair simply stepped up his schedule and worked as much as they asked him because he DID draw fans to the arenas when few others could.

He leaves WCW in 1991 and the company tanks.

He returns in 1993 and they do well.

Coincidence?

"And thinking short-term is never a good idea. To make money in the biz, you HAVE to think long-term."

Yeah, but I'm thinking the short-term boost is part of a long-term plan. Maybe not, but we'll see. Just don't shoot it down until it actually happens.

I am confident there's no long-term plan in the WWF. Vince forgot why the WWF was so successful in 2000.

"No, but the fans were during his heel run until those matches. Go back and watch the tapes. The crowd was APATHETIC for him and the WWF pushed him FAR more than his level of being over warranted."

Some have argued the same about Chris Jericho and Chris Benoit. Just saying.

Neither received the push Hunter got.

"It took Foley to finally make HHH a star."

And Foley retired immediately after the feud and HHH didn't lose his heat -- he actually gained heat.

Because Foley let Hunter "retire" him---TWICE. Foley was obscenely over and the fans loved him. ANYBODY who "retired" him---much less TWICE---would be hated.

Then HHH went into a feud with that kinda-over guy, the Rock.

"Of course, Hunter already had 3 World Title reigns before he actualy GOT over---so again, his coments are laughable."

Revisionist history at its best.

Go back and re-watch the PPV and RAW's. The crowd was not close to being into Hunter.

I remember some pretty loud boos when he was squashing Vince McMahon and he was the first non-Vince guy to get the "asshole" chants, and that was before Summerslam '99.

I remember a reaction less loud than Kurt Angle presently gets.

"He doesn't let his opponents look good. When he teamed with Austin, Steve ended up playing Hunter's lackey, for God's sake."

He also allowed Austin to drop him from a forklift and spent a healthy portion of his peak year feuding with Benoit, Jericho and Angle.

He let Austin drop him with a forklift---and returned TWO WEEKS LATER without a scratch.

And, uh, did he put over Benoit? Jericho? Angle?

No. No. No.

By most accounts, he helped kill the love triangle angle (the last good WWF angle, mind you) because it would've required him to look bad.

He bladed for Jericho and sold like his life depended on it. He sold A LOT for Benoit. He worked a program with a rookie in Kurt Angle that a lot of top guys would have refused.

Yes, he bladed and sold for Jericho---but then beat him constantly. Heck, on the same RAW where he "lost" the World Title to Chris, he PINNED him in a six-man match to end the show.

Now, LOGIC would dictate Jericho pinning him in the six-man to keep an angle going. No dice.

Shall we even go into his program with Jeff Hardy? Now I won't claim that Hardy deserved the IC Title (he did not), but HHH slaughtered him.

In the closest thing to a match that resulted from the whole HHH/Steph marriage angle, HHH annihilated Test.

And nobody refused to work with Kurt. Heck, Jericho made Angle legitimate.

"No, it's vastly different. Jericho had heat. Hunter had none.

Hunter was allowed to beat everybody and do so fairly cleanly. Jericho was not."

The only top guy HHH ever beat cleanly was Foley, and it was the right business move since he was on the way out.

He won the World Title from Big Show more cleanly than any heel has ever won a World Title in the WWF.

He never beat the Rock clean. He beat Austin clean once, WAY after he had established himself.

He never jobbed to Rock clean, either.

"Hmm, let's go down the check list for HHH.

Cutting promos: Um, no."

Better as a heel yes, but not totally ineffective.

Sure as heck not good.

"Range of character? Um, does Hunter HAVE an emotion outside of rage?"

Yeah, he sure seemed ANGRY when he smiled huge and hugged Stephanie when she told him she was pregnant.

And Rob's pulled off rage and laid-back mellow.

"Sympathy psychology? Seeing as how Hunter is never allowed to look bad, no."

What do you want him to do? Get in zero offense and job to everyone on the card? HHH sells about a hundred times more than Austin and no one gets on his back.

He doesn't come close to selling like Austin. Steve sells for just about everybody.

"Hunter is not the most over face in the WWF. Not by a long shot. RVD gets bigger pops in his matches."

For his spots, yes. But that's it. The Hardy Boyz had the exact same kind of heat in 2000.

Which is more face heat than Hunter has right now.

"And I don't even think Rob is that great a worker."

I think he's awesome actually, but I'm looking at this from a business point of view. Yeah, he deserves a compelling angle, but if he can adapt to the style that everyone else in the company uses and show that his character is as resilient as Chris Jericho's, meaning he can job left and right and not lose heat, then he's proven that his heat isn't totally fragile.

Hunter didn't have to do that.

He was given the IC Title from Mero when he wasn't in the same state as the ballpark that contained somebody who was over.

He got over as dX head, but his heat went bye-bye after WM XV and didn't return until Royal Rumble 2000.

And why should Rob change his style? He got over BECAUSE his style was different.

"Fans pop for HHH's entrance and his finish, but for the middle of the match, fans tend to sit on their hands."

Just like they've been doing for everyone but the Rock's matches lately. The WWF has played to some dead crowds as of late. It's not just HHH.

Doesn't happen to Austin. Steve owns the crowd.

"Thus, it is NOT up yet.

And, RAW's ratings WERE released. Weak bump by any post-PPV standard."

One show. You seem a little too anxious for this to fail.

I hope for the WWF's sake that SD tonight gets TERRIBLE ratings or else a lot of fans will have been turned off of the product.

Too much nWo, not enough wrestling.

"Up .3 after a PPV.

Not a good start."

Quarter hours tell you about them specifically.

High for Rock v Hogan. Dropped afterwards.

Either Rock/Hogan was riveting stuff, or people didn't like it and stopped watching.

"Should I mention that the SD tapings didn't exactly get rave reviews last night?"

No, because only smarks give Smackdown reports. No problem with that, but it's not a good barometer.

Well, we all saw the show.

ANYBODY think that show did anything but suck?

"I love this line of thinking. It's up there with "Well, they'll behave because it's the only show in town"."

Well, the NWO DOES have to have opponents. No one's spot is in danger. If it was, Jericho would already be midcarding.

Chris isn't far from that happening. And what about the returning guys? What will happen to Benoit, Kanyon, or Rhyno?

"They will try to bury anybody they can.

It's what they do.

Reminds me of a story I heard from Jake Roberts (probably from Beyond the Mat, but I can't swear to that)

A man finds a snake tht is dying in the sun.

He takes the snake to his house and nurses it back to health.

When the snake gets fully healthy, it bites and kills the man.

As the man lays dying, he asks "Why did you do that to me? I saved you life!"

The snake replied "You knew I was a snake when you found me""

Jake Roberts -- what a valiant source of information! Anyway, I agree that the NWO has played politics in the past and buried guys, but that's when they had full creative control. They don't anymore.

And you assume that this will stop them?

I doubt anybody in the Kliq had creative control in their WWF contracts.

They still ran the show.

"I'm going by the collapse of WCW as the basis for my pessimism."

And that's warranted to a certain extent, but WCW 2001 and WWF 2002 are not one and the same. Different wrestlers, different management, different time period.

Same problems surfacing.

"I see no reason for your optimism."

It's cautious, but I haven't been given a reason NOT to be optimistic yet. When there is one, I won't be anymore.

Exhibit One: Tonight's Smackdown.

"And I think signing them is a HORRIBLE precedent and will only cause the WWF problems that, quite frankly, they fully deserve. I almost WANT massive locker room strife just to teach those idiots in Stamford a lesson."

Is that really it or is it just so you'll be "right"? Really think about that.

No.

I hate that the WWF is panicking, rather than sitting back, saying "Hey, it's a down turn. Let's think of something good".

If they're going to make the same bad decisions that WCW made, they deserve to suffer.

"Or, in Hunter's case, having the promoter have a hard-on for you and push you in spite of not being over until the fans eventually cheer for you."

We've already had this argument. See above.

"How about pushing him as being on the same level as Rock and Austin?"

Pinned the Rock six times. Pinned Austin twice. Has had PPV main events with both. Was the clear-cut winner in both feuds. I don't see how he's not being presented at their level. He cheats because he's a heel.

He's not had anything resembling a psuedo-close, non-total fluke win.

"HHH always got that treatment."

He cheated just as much as Jericho and had lots more interference.

Won the World Title as cleanly as a heel can win it. Dominated at the Six-pack match at Unforgiven---Austin helped him win the title, but HHH didn't "need" it. Beat Foley cleanly three straight times.

"On RAW, why was Jericho's name not mentioned UNTIL the last half hour?"

Agreed.

"Heck, he barely gets mentioned on RAW or Smackdown at all anymore---and he's supposed to be the top guy."

Agreed.

"They have the same angle now that they've had for years."

No, they actually don't. It's been six years since we've seen the original NWO.

It's been one year since we've seen the nWo.

The angle nevr changed.

It just got stale.

That won't change.

Nitro did well because it had shock value.

Fans hadn't seen an angle like this before.

Now they HAVE seen this angle before.

Which is why it won't work.

Re-hashes don't work.

"Let's say a guy moves in next door to you with MULTIPLE arrests for child molestation.

Would you trust YOUR kids with him, even though he has done nothing to them at this point?"

He's paid his debt to society. I wouldn't leave my kids alone with him, but I wouldn't condemn him either. People can change.

Then we'll have to disagree. If somebody has a long history of being trouble-makers, it's up to them to show me that they are not.

"No, the WWF was dealing with guys who came from a locker room KNOWN for being out-of-control to a level that management could not handle them.

Thus, the WWF guys treated the WCW guys the same way they treat ONE ANOTHER."

And threatened sodomy on a referee who flew first class. So petty.

Quite frankly, Silverman's claims are ridiculous and he holds a lot of petty vindictiveness. His slam on Jericho in that interview basically killed his respectability.

Also his inability to understand why anybody might have a problem with Bagwell makes one wonder.

And, for the final time, he wasn't punished for flying first-class. He was punished because when he was told that it wasn't done, he acted as if that was stupid.

He was punished for not respecting the traditions of the locker room, not for the violation of the rule.

If he simply said, "I'm sorry. I won't do it again", nothing would have happened.

And, by the way, what abuse did HE suffer? He had to serve drinks all day. Boo-friggin'-hoo. I've not heard a word out of ANYBODY to corroborate Billy's stories.

"Please note that none of the headaches of WCW left the WWF."

Clarify?

Who left?

Evan Karagias, Buff Bagwell, Billy Silverman. Others were released in the cuts or for drug problems (Wall), but the vast majority of WCW's personnel managed to fit in nicely.

The head cases in WCW couldn't fit in and Silverman comes across as a really bitter guy.

"I have a better shot at being correct.

Let's say WM does as good as last year's did. Can there even be an argument that nWo had a thing to do with a show that sold out about a month before they were even mentioned on WWF TV?"

Yep, because business was much better at this point last year. If they draw an equal buyrate to last year, then it's even more impressive this time, considering how much TV ratings have dropped.

Even if the numbers are consistent with WM performances in the past?

Two years ago, the NFL's ratings were slumping---yet the Super Bowl still did a monster number. Was it because of the teams playing---or because the SB ALWAYS does monster numbers?

"Christian has been wasted by the WWF. Horribly wasted."

Christian is a great character, but is a severely overrated wrestler who punches and kicks and doesn't do much else. I think he could have been more, but it would take another few years for him to be perceived at the same level as Scott Hall or Kevin Nash.

He bumps exceptionally well. He is gold on the mic. He has great spots and can flat-out work a match when he's given more than 3 minutes.

The reason he won't be perceived as being at Hall or Nash's level is because he is never given the chance to run with the ball.

"Ditto Tajiri."

Huge when he first came in, fizzled out quickly because he was too repetitive.

Fizzled out because the WWF stuck him in matches that were brutally short, preventing him from actually working.

When was the last TV match of his that went 3 minutes?

PPV match then went 7 minutes?

The WWF wants him to hit his signature spots, but they give him no time to do much else.

"Ditto Edge."

Getting the push of a lifetime, still not getting over very well.

Because the WWF won't let him beat anybody.

"Ditto Hurricane."

Comedy wrestler.

And if given even an inkling of a push, could get over. The WWF pushed him as a joke, rather than as a comedy wrestler (ala Christian, Edge, Angle), and it killed his heat.

"Ditto Storm."

Gets next to no crowd reaction. Could be a star one day, but there's no way he could be as established as Hogan by WM.

Shall we go back to WCW?

Storm got massively over in less than a month. WCW gave him a few clean wins and a chance to use his mic skills and he got over until horrible booking and Nash killed it.

"Ditto Booker."

Millions of chances over the past two years, failed every time. Partially his fault, partially not.

When has he failed when given a chance?

In WCW, he was always pushed as inferior to GB and Steiner.

In the WWF, has he ever won a match cleanly? They wouldn't even let him beat Bagwell.

"Hmm, HHH v Jericho is a given. Rock v Angle would be nice."

We'll see what draws higher. This is a step backward if No Mercy 2000 or No Way Out 2001 drew higher than this year's Wrestlemania end up doing. Rock v Angle headlined both of those shows. And HHH v Jericho isn't going anywhere. Funny that you say HHH isn't over, yet you claim him in the main against Jericho will draw.

Because their matches have always drawn. And I say that Hunter is not the most over face in the WWF now---which he clearly is not. He's over---but it took the WWF years and a MASSIVE push few get to do it.

Why did Rock v Angle not draw? Because fans didn't really think Angle could beat Rock. Kurt has more legitimacy now as a threat than he did back then.

And, as a plus, the match would be quite good.

"Storm v Edge would do some good business, especially if they take the IC Belt off of Regal and give it back to Edge."

The I-C title is worthless anymore since it changes hands every month for the most part.

It is worthless because the WWF won't put a program together for it.

"Austin v UT would have to be tossed in there, just to give both guys something to do."

0.84 at Judgment Day.

Didn't say I liked the match, either. But, you NEED Austin on the show and the WWF has a dearth of top-level heels presently.

"Page v RVD could be a fun little Euro Title match."

Good match? Yeah. Good draw? No.

RVD can draw decently. The WWF clearly thinks he MIGHT be able to draw since he was the focus of their cable campaign for the NWO PPV (God knows every ad for the show featured him alone).

They don't show a lot of faith in him and won't really give him a chance, but they seem to think the POTENTIAL might be there.

"Would do the EXACT SAME level of business (namely, obscenely high), but the WWF would save money by not having to hire those goons and the matches would be better."

Well, I guess you think so, but we'll see.

No doubt the matches would be better.

No doubt at all.

And WM does huge numbers.

"You mention buyrates going up as proof of their marketability."

No I didn't. bps21 mentioned it in his post that I responded to.

"No, I'm basing that on crowd noise. I'm basing it on the prevalence of signs and merchandise in spite of his non-push as of late."

Just like the NWO.

Except Rob isn't quite getting their level of push, is he?

Heck, he was given a chance, DID WELL, and STILL got buried.

"He hasn't headlined in years because nobody in their right mind thinks he can possibly draw."

No way he could, but I bet he could get a good rating out of a well-promoted title match, or at least he could have last time he was on TV.

Not a chance on Earth.

"Heck, Bill Clinton could charm the socks off of anybody.

Doesn't mean I'd trust the guy."

You don't have to trust him. Wrestling isn't exactly a wholesome business.

"Hogan's actions speak FAR louder than his words."

So give him time to prove himself and then judge him.

"Who says they WON'T work with them? They can say that signing them is idiotic and will hurt their careers, but nobody has said I won't work with them."

No, but they sure are whining to the sheets a lot about something they've only heard about.

A lot of the guys didn't "hear" about it. Austin was basically de-pushed the moment Hogan arrived. Jericho got screwed with. Ditto Benoit. And since none of those three are viewed as being overly bitchy, their stories are given some credence.

"When you have Hall allegedly telling the Duds that he can't wait to kick out of their finisher, then you're not exactly starting off on the right foot."

See my post on this earlier on in the thread.

"It's like Buff Bagwell all over again."

Only Hall hasn't had an atrocious match on Raw and started a petty fisticuffs with Shane Helms.

Oh, the atrocious matches are soon coming.

And he nearly started a fight with the Duds, so he's gettin' close.

"Why should I praise something that hasn't happened yet and has been delayed repeatedly?

-=Mike"

JR said it's coming after Wrestlemania, so I'm sure you'll be happy. At least I hope.

They said 1/7.

Then 1/21.

Until it happens, I don't buy it.

-=Mike

February 22, 2002