Guest razazteca Report post Posted July 26, 2002 I found this match on the internet and wondering if anybody out there know what lead up to this match. In it Tenzen used Headbutts as his main offensive strike, used a modified Tombstone which the announcer called Hangman DDTahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I think. While Kawada used alot of kicks and High Kick as his main offensive. The match had Tensen being in control of the match from the begining hitting a stiff headbutt which made him bleed, well I thought that he had the match won but from out of nowhere Kawada won the match with a Powerbomb!!!!! Somebody please explain how this was possible? Is it because of the Headbutts hurt him more or combined with the numerous kicks to the head from Kawada, or did the powerbomb have some important history to it? also why wont Kawada see a dentist? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dangerous A Report post Posted July 27, 2002 I'm not sure which match up you are talking about. The one I have seen is from Budokan and had Tenzan no selling a ton of Kawada's offense, including 2 Dangerous Backdrops, before Kawada dropped him with a jumping high kick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jubuki Report post Posted July 27, 2002 The one Raz refers to is from the IWGP Title tournament on 1/4. Good match, better than the 6/8 one. From what I've seen, though, 6/8 was an aberration for Tenzan, rather than the rule. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dangerous A Report post Posted July 27, 2002 Agreed Jubuki. Tenzan usually doesn't blatantly no-sell without it meaning something in the scheme of the match. I usually dig Tenzan's work, but on that night he disappointed me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BigTim2002 Report post Posted July 27, 2002 Yah...why did Tenzan no sell as much as he did? It kinda pissed me off a little bit. Kawada kicked the SHIT out of his then tag parter Kojima...so I guess that meant that Tenzan had to do all he could to not lose to Kawada for the sake of the team...kinda sucked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jubuki Report post Posted July 27, 2002 Nah, 'twasn't even that in-depth; Tenzan just did the "I have a hard head" act, to the detriment of Kawada's big offense. Bad psych, nothing more, nothing less. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatypusFool Report post Posted July 27, 2002 You know my opinions on the 6/8 match. He no sold some stuff, but it was only to set up the fact he had a hard head. Whether the psychology of having a hard head is 'deep' or not doesn't really make any difference as that was the psychology there. They didn't do anything to hurt the psychology of the match, Tenzan didn't suddenly turn around and sell the head stuff, and that's why I really like the match. They told a great, simple story in a slow paced, methodical match, it was great and I love it. That's my two cents and I'm not going to say anything more on the subject since I've argued this point to distraction on this board more than once before. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wolverine Report post Posted July 27, 2002 If *** is 'great' then yes, I suppose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Coffin Surfer Report post Posted July 27, 2002 What I really hate about newer All Japan stuff and NOAH is how the "Dangerous" moves quit being dangerous. They became transition moves. Then they just became the norm, and the only damn thing the fans would pop for. It bothers me that someone can no sell a head drop. A fucking Head Drop! They used to do the "corpse" sell after a head drop, now they just pop right back up. Oh and Raza: The "Folding" Powerbomb is Kawada's long time finisher. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wolverine Report post Posted July 27, 2002 I think Kawada is the best worker ever (at least until I see more Jumbo, Hokuto, and Destroyer), but I just haven't seen any great matches from him since the 6/98 Kobashi match. Oh well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest RickyChosyu Report post Posted July 27, 2002 You know my opinions on the 6/8 match. He no sold some stuff, but it was only to set up the fact he had a hard head. Whether the psychology of having a hard head is 'deep' or not doesn't really make any difference as that was the psychology there. They didn't do anything to hurt the psychology of the match, Tenzan didn't suddenly turn around and sell the head stuff, and that's why I really like the match. They told a great, simple story in a slow paced, methodical match, it was great and I love it. Not so much that it "hurt" hurt the psych since it was bad to begin with. There are better ways to get across the point of a hard head than shitting on your opponent's offense. Random no-selling of finishers like that hurt the realism of the match because it just wasn't believable. Acting unaffected by a strike can be good because it shows that the aggresor must dig deeper to accomplish what he's reaching for, (unless the strike is used a finish, of course). However, when Tenzan just no-sold Kawada's back drops, it makes him seem like a cartoon character, or something of that nature. It may drive home the point that he has a hard head, but it's at the expense of not only Kawada, but the match itself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Coffin Surfer Report post Posted July 27, 2002 I think Kawada is the best worker ever (at least until I see more Jumbo, Hokuto, and Destroyer), but I just haven't seen any great matches from him since the 6/98 Kobashi match. Oh well. I've been getting into Jumbo alot lately(mostly 80s, early 90s). I love his pacing, and how he was more about teasing big spots than just busting them out every two seconds. Which oddly enough is why I think 6/98 Kawada/Kobashi was the last great men singles matches. They controlled the crowd, not the other way around. I really need to check out Jumbo's work in the 70s, as well as The Destroyer who've I heard alot about. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest razazteca Report post Posted July 27, 2002 I guess it was the 1/4 IWGP tourny because in the begining intro everything was in japanese but IWGP so did I get the name of the Tombstone move right, is it really the Hangman DDT? That move was stiff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Coffin Surfer Report post Posted July 27, 2002 I guess it was the 1/4 IWGP tourny because in the begining intro everything was in japanese but IWGP so did I get the name of the Tombstone move right, is it really the Hangman DDT? That move was stiff I believe your thinking of the Ganso Bomb. The first time I saw it called a Hangman DDT was the No Mercy video game. There also is a more safer version I've seen guys like Pitbull II use(ugh) that is more like a kneeling piledriver than a head drop. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatypusFool Report post Posted July 27, 2002 If it was Tenzan's tombstone varient it was probably the Tenzan Tombstone Driver (TTD), which has been his main finisher for a while now. And I know I said I wouldn't say anything but I just have to pick up on two points... RickyChosyu: "Random no-selling of finishers..." It wasn't random, that's my point. Tenzan no sold moves that attacked the head, which had been set up as ultra hard in the match. So not random, it was no selling in the context of the match. Wolverine: "If *** is 'great' then yes, I suppose." You call this match ***, I call it around ****. I'm sure other people will have called it higher or lower. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest razazteca Report post Posted July 27, 2002 I thought the match was ok but the ending what I did not like. If Tenzan is suppose to have a hard head then how the hell can a powerbomb finish the match? I am almost positive that I heard the annoucer call the tombstone something like Hangman DDTahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, since that is the only thing that he said in english, but the announcers are still hard to understand so I could be wrong. I was most likely the TTD as stated early by Platypusfool Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jubuki Report post Posted July 27, 2002 And the no-selling was still bad. It was also a lot closer to random than you're making it out to be. Here's how the order went in the match: High kick #1 - Tenzan goes down, but pops up Dangerous Backdrop #1 - Tenzan half-sells it High kick #2 - Tenzan blows it off High kick #3 - About the same as #1 High kick #4 - Tenzan finally goes down and sells fully So, he takes two -- *TWO* of Kawada's biggest shots, and THEN, by the third one, his head is suddenly HARDER? "Does this make logic?" -- Konnan He was at least getting it right if you just go with kicks 2, 3, 4, but those first two shots in there blow the finish. And then compare it to the 1/4 match: Tenzan was on his own turf there, in a prime position to show his spirit, but he takes ONE kick and goes down like a ton of bricks. Now, I don't seem to recall Tenzan getting any big pushes between January and June aside from the Tenkoji dominance, and I don't recall him being considered an IWGP Title contender at any point during that time, so how is it that someone who had had a hard head as part of his character for years and years suddenly got tough enough to shrug off Kawada like he did? The answer: he didn't. Bad psych. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest wolverine Report post Posted July 27, 2002 I think the last **** Kawada singles match was on 1/17/00 vs. Kobashi. This was his return match from an eye injury. He was definitely capable of more since then, he just didn't have the right opponents. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatypusFool Report post Posted July 27, 2002 Thank you Jubuki, for not just telling me that I'm wrong like usual and actually pointing out some things, I really appreciate that kind of constructive critique to my opinions. The point you make about the sequence of moves toward the end of that match is a very valid one, I did not look at the match this closely and did not notice this. Looking at your point though, it could be argued that Tenzan was not expecting the first few moves and therefore sold them more, but then prepared himself for the next couple until he was knocked cold by the final one. Your second point about the comparison between the two matches stands up completely to my mind, you are correct about this. I haven't seen the earlier match, nor am I familier with the progression of Tenzan between them, so I can not factor that into my opinion of the match. Once again I thank you for not simply putting my opinion down like you usually do Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatypusFool Report post Posted July 27, 2002 In a completely unrelated matter to the quality of the 6/8 match... "I am almost positive that I heard the annoucer call the tombstone something like Hangman DDTahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, since that is the only thing that he said in english, but the announcers are still hard to understand so I could be wrong. I was most likely the TTD as stated early by Platypusfool" The TTD is a sort of side, kneeling, tombstone variant. He may have some something different as Japanese guys seem to frequently mix in random moves sometimes. It also may have been before the TTD name was given to the move... I'm just guessing though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted July 27, 2002 So, he takes two -- *TWO* of Kawada's biggest shots, and THEN, by the third one, his head is suddenly HARDER? "Does this make logic?" -- Konnan Sorry, but that was funny. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
