The downfall of All Japan...

[Guest RickyChosyu]

While I've dug up and read plenty of All Japan history concerning their lineage and how they got to the goldan age that was most of the ninties, and I feel that I have an understanding of where they are now, but I have yet to see a valid explanation as to what happened inbetween the two. For example, why was Kawada's first win over Misawa done so poorly? Why weren't new stars created? Why did they resort to bringing in Vader and Hase? How in the hell did Jun Akiyama regress so much as a worker? Most people discuss the fall of All Japan as if the split was the only thing that killed it, but looking at where the two decendants of AJPW are now, it had to have been more than that. I mean, NOAH, which recieved the bulk of AJPW's workers, still lacks anything close to All Japan in the golden age, and it's not just because Misawa can't book shit, either. Any help on this issue would be greatly appreciated.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

While I've dug up and read plenty of All Japan history concerning their lineage and how they got to the goldan age that was most of the ninties, and I feel that I have an understanding of where they are now, but I have yet to see a valid explanation as to what happened inbetween the two. For example, why was Kawada's first win over Misawa done so poorly?

I'am sure I probably got alot of this wrong, but what the hell. I'am not even sure if any of this is true, but this is what I read. If I'am wrong please correct me, cause I would also like to know the truth and the whole story.

 

New Japan started to beat All Japan in the ratings. At the time, New Japan was doing joint promotion cards with other feds(JCUP 94 anyone). Kawada suggested to Baba, why don't we do something like that. Baba refused, Kawada got pissed, and so did Baba.

 

I believe the original plan was for Kawada to get his big singles push in 95 or 96. But instead Baba decided to punish Kawada by giving it to Taue. The big win Taue got over Misawa first, I believe was originally suppose to be Kawada's. Eventually Baba came to his senses in 98, and let Kawada finally go over Misawa. But the momentum and heat was already killed, as the company continued to sprial towards oblivion.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

While I've dug up and read plenty of All Japan history concerning their lineage and how they got to the goldan age that was most of the ninties, and I feel that I have an understanding of where they are now, but I have yet to see a valid explanation as to what happened inbetween the two. For example, why was Kawada's first win over Misawa done so poorly?

I'am sure I probably got alot of this wrong, but what the hell. I'am not even sure if any of this is true, but this is what I read. If I'am wrong please correct me, cause I would also like to know the truth and the whole story.

 

New Japan started to beat All Japan in the ratings. At the time, New Japan was doing joint promotion cards with other feds(JCUP 94 anyone). Kawada suggested to Baba, why don't we do something like that. Baba refused, Kawada got pissed, and so did Baba.

 

I believe the original plan was for Kawada to get his big singles push in 95 or 96. But instead Baba decided to punish Kawada by giving it to Taue. The big win Taue got over Misawa first, I believe was originally suppose to be Kawada's. Eventually Baba came to his senses in 98, and let Kawada finally go over Misawa. But the momentum and heat was already killed, as the company continued to sprial towards oblivion.

I had heard about this too, but it still boggles my mind. No matter what the issue was there, I have to think that at the end of the day, business is business, and letting both Taue and Kobashi go over Misawa before Kawada finally did is simply bad business.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Lyger comment edited out because was I wrong, and the rest was pure speculation. But I stand by my Misawa/Kawada comments.

 

It really effected the quaility of the matches as well. You can tell Misawa and Kawada were both baffeled after 6/3/94 on how to end their matches. They estabilished Kawada had found a way around all of Misawa's moves, yet Misawa still was supposed to go over. In the end they came up with the same Elbow/Tiger Suplex crap over and over again. Which is what I thought held the first two matches after 6/3/94 back from becoming *****.

[Guest Jubuki]

Well, the first match after 6/94 was their 95 CC match, where Misawa had a broken face. That didn't help matters. The next one was the 7/95 TC match, where the point was to keep Misawa atop the pile. Kawada had just beaten him, but winning a tag match and beating him for the Triple Crown were entirely different things. So Misawa avenged the win, and in admirable fashion, killing Kawada dead with elbows and suplexes. In the 6/94 match, Misawa rattled off the same kind of stretch of offense, but Kawada, unlike 6/94, didn't come back for more after the second or third bomb.

 

I hope you weren't referring to 7/95 & 6/97 as the "next two" though...the first one's a fine match, but the second is a good, long way from 'great', let alone being considered one of the best singles matches of all time.

 

I'd also like to know when Liger was a top draw for New Japan - maybe at spot shows, Korakuen, and tournaments, but he was no 'draw' for them. Hash was a draw, Mutoh was a draw, Chono, Inoki, Choshu...they were draws. Liger was the top Jr., but he wasn't a draw.

[Guest wolverine]

6/97 is better than Williams/Kobashi 8/93, which I gave ****. Not that much better, but it's clearly better.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Misawa vs Kawada lost its steam after 1995 because it went on for so long. You can't really fault them for not putting Kawada over on 6/3/94 because they didn't know it would be so damn great.

 

The problem was that they would build up Kawada over and over, but Misawa would still win. By 1998 when they went to the Tokyo Dome everyone and their dog knew Kawada was going over, AJ needed their first show to be special. I think it should have been in Nippon Budokan when he won and use the Tokyo Dome for a re-match and have Kawada win so he can prove its no fluke.

 

What killed AJ IMO was the death of Baba. Baba had such an iron grip on tradition that nobody else could run AJPW the same way. Baba's style produced so many great matches. Nobody else could run a promotion and put that many great matches on a regular basis. Its like Stuart says, All Japan Magic.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Well, the first match after 6/94 was their 95 CC match, where Misawa had a broken face. That didn't help matters. The next one was the 7/95 TC match, where the point was to keep Misawa atop the pile. Kawada had just beaten him, but winning a tag match and beating him for the Triple Crown were entirely different things. So Misawa avenged the win, and in admirable fashion, killing Kawada dead with elbows and suplexes. In the 6/94 match, Misawa rattled off the same kind of stretch of offense, but Kawada, unlike 6/94, didn't come back for more after the second or third bomb.

 

I hope you weren't referring to 7/95 & 6/97 as the "next two" though...the first one's a fine match, but the second is a good, long way from 'great', let alone being considered one of the best singles matches of all time.

 

I'd also like to know when Liger was a top draw for New Japan - maybe at spot shows, Korakuen, and tournaments, but he was no 'draw' for them. Hash was a draw, Mutoh was a draw, Chono, Inoki, Choshu...they were draws. Liger was the top Jr., but he wasn't a draw.

I said if I was wrong, please correct me don't be an asshole. I was speculating on politics and a wrestling scene(that aside from the matches) I know little about. Nothing wrong with speculating, I always assumed Lyger was the number one junior heavyweight in New Japan(maybe I should have been more specific). I know the heavywieghts draw more, and the juniors are considered inferior.

 

But I always assumed Lyger was the celebrity type, he based his character off a popluar comic book character and helped draw a younger crowd back to wrestling(or so I have heard). That sounded kind of like what Hulk Hogan did for wrestilng popularity in the 80s. I guess I'am wrong, so what.

 

About the Misawa/Kawada match.

 

Yes, I was refering to the more popular next two matches 7/95, 6/97. I give 7/95 ****3/4 and I thought everything was great aside from the ending. The whole match was designed for Kawada to win. But Misawa coming back from three Backdrop Drivers(last time I counted, I may be wrong since your all in to specific details). The ending killed it for me. And I think Kawada should have gone over as a gradual progression from 6/3/94, but what do I know.

 

6/97 I would give ****1/2 not as good as the 93 match(forgive me for not having the exact date at the moment, I'll edit it in to satisfy you). It started off good, but once again the nonsensable ending killed it for me. To much shrugging off head drops as well. Which could be attributed to the fact, that they were running out of ideas for Misawa to some how keeping out on top.

 

And the whole elbow,german/elbow/tiger/elbow...etc endings for both matches were becoming quite boring. Since in 6/3/94 it was established that wouldn't work anymore, anyways. Thats just my opinion.

 

And if you know Baba's reasons for holding Kawada back for a personal grudge, please let me know and give me your insight. Don't just pick my posts apart, cause it makes you feel smarter. Sure, I made a ignornat comment or too, but at least comment on the damn topic. That way it doesn't look like your just being ass who waits for hastely written posts to rip apart.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Kawada wanted to interpromote with UWF-I like New Japan was at the time and Baba wanted nothing to do with it. Kawada got on his case about how NJ was going to kill UWF-I and the should do it while they have time. Baba let Kawada work a 12/95 UWF-I show as long as his match wasn't televised along with NJ vs UWF-I matches.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

Misawa vs Kawada lost its steam after 1995 because it went on for so long. You can't really fault them for not putting Kawada over on 6/3/94 because they didn't know it would be so damn great.

 

The problem was that they would build up Kawada over and over, but Misawa would still win. By 1998 when they went to the Tokyo Dome everyone and their dog knew Kawada was going over, AJ needed their first show to be special. I think it should have been in Nippon Budokan when he won and use the Tokyo Dome for a re-match and have Kawada win so he can prove its no fluke.

 

What killed AJ IMO was the death of Baba. Baba had such an iron grip on tradition that nobody else could run AJPW the same way. Baba's style produced so many great matches. Nobody else could run a promotion and put that many great matches on a regular basis. Its like Stuart says, All Japan Magic.

I actually like the idea of Kawada losing in 6/3/94. It made the match better and even managed to swerve the crowd. Even though the ending was foreshadowed with the Backdrop spot early on.

 

However the match established that Kawada could now escape Misawa's germans and tigers. And Kawada kept popping up after the Elbows, and fighting back. Misawa had nothing left to throw at him, and had to dust off the Tiger Driver 91 to finish him off.

 

It would have made perfect sense for the all the pieces to fall into place in the 7/95 match and let Kawada finally go over. But with Misawa once again booked to go over, it made for a bad nonsensable finish IMO.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

What killed AJ IMO was the death of Baba. Baba had such an iron grip on tradition that nobody else could run AJPW the same way. Baba's style produced so many great matches. Nobody else could run a promotion and put that many great matches on a regular basis. Its like Stuart says, All Japan Magic.

 

Yes, but it's also my understanding that things had began to stink well before Baba died, which would indicate that there was more to the fall than his death. Kawada not going over Misawa was one, but it's the lack of new stars being created that sticks out the most to me. While the memory of the seemingly-immortal Tsuruta must have been fresh in their minds, there's no way they could have thought that Misawa, Kobashi, or even Kawada could keep up forever. Omori, and Akiyama were apparently very promising early on, but it appears they never lived up to that potential.

 

I'd also like to know when Liger was a top draw for New Japan - maybe at spot shows, Korakuen, and tournaments, but he was no 'draw' for them. Hash was a draw, Mutoh was a draw, Chono, Inoki, Choshu...they were draws. Liger was the top Jr., but he wasn't a draw.

 

I'm curious on this point, too. I know Liger, being a Junior, was always treated as inferior, and thus, wasn't expected to be a 'draw' in the litteral sense, it's very hard to tell whether he actually became one or not, because he was hardly ever booked in a possition to draw. The '94 J-Cup was supposedly a legit 10,000 seat sell-out, but it's impossible to tell because it was a tourniment and Lyger wasn't promoted as being headlined by Lyger like a Tokyo Dome show with Hash would be.

[Guest Black Tiger]

In All Japan, younger guys wouldn't be given serious pushes for YEARS. Misawa and Kawada both had ten years with AJ before they got big time pushes in the early 1990's. Kobashi's push is IMO due to the popularity of Misawa and Co vs Jumbo and Co. Kikuchi was every bit as good as Kobashi but never got the big time push.

 

Omori and Akiyama paid their dues from 1992-1995 by jobbing and generaly doing six man tags with veterans to learn the ropes. They started their pushes by winning the All Asia Tag Titles in 1995, after they lost them in 1998 Akiyama started doing The Burning and Omori did No Fear.

 

Ten years earlier Misawa (then Tiger Mask) started to team with Jumbo Tsuruta and Kawada started to team with Genichiro Tenryu.

 

After Baba's death they both were pushed in singles. (Akiyama vs Misawa from Excite Series 2000, Omori's Champions Carival 2000 push).

 

Notice in NOAH where its anything but tradition. Akiyama teams up with Izumuda (Double Jun) and Omori is buried and is sent to Harley Race.

[Guest Jubuki]

CS, I did correct you - that isn't me being an asshole. I think those around here would or should know the difference by now, yes? If I wanted to be an asshole, I would've told you Liger wasn't a draw in much more blunt terms than I did. And I'd tell the guys at tOA that you're sucking off their bandwidth by linking to one of their photos. And I'd have told you you're making an ass of yourself by trying to sound authoritative in the middle of admitted ignorance you could correct by reading 2 or 3 threads over *at* tOA.

 

That Kawada publicly criticized Baba for not cashing in on UWFi's popularity is well-known, but it's not as though that had a great deal to do with All Japan's fall. No one's bothered to mention the fact that they cut back their TV from 1 hour to 30 minutes in April '94, which meant fans only saw the main eventers instead of a good cross-section of the roster. And no one's mentioned that they didn't find any strong "next generation" recruits other than Akiyama (and what do you think went on in his head when he was the only pushed "kid"?). And no one's talked about the fact that the undercard guys like Kikuchi or the Can-Ams or Ogawa were either broken down physically or just weren't having interesting matches like they had in 92-94, which wasn't helped by the fact that the fans weren't seeing them much because that extra 30 minutes of weekly TV was gone. And no one has brought up the style of match All Japan had worked in its best business period (the Jumbo vs. Misawa days) was not only gone by 96, but matches of its quality were entirely relegated to the main event competitors.

 

And that's just dealing with the time frame up till '97 - by '98, Misawa was a cripple, Kawada got the straps and immediately lost because the drawing figures scared Baba, Misawa was rushed back before he could heal up properly, Kawada got injured upon winning the titles back, etc. There were a lot of things going wrong over a long period of time; dwelling on a few months or so of bad booking for Kawada is like spotting a tree in a forest with Dutch elm disease and saying, "Ah, this is the root of our problem," while the rest of the forest burns down around you.

 

And J-Cup drew partly because it was Liger, partly because it was New Japan in their home at Sumo Hall, partly because it was the uniqueness of a tournament, and partly because it was an interpromotional deal.

[Guest Coffin Surfer]

CS, I did correct you - that isn't me being an asshole.  I think those around here would or should know the difference by now, yes?  If I wanted to be an asshole, I would've told you Liger wasn't a draw in much more blunt terms than I did.  And I'd tell the guys at tOA that you're sucking off their bandwidth by linking to one of their photos.  And I'd have told you you're making an ass of yourself by trying to sound authoritative in the middle of admitted ignorance you could correct by reading 2 or 3 threads over *at* tOA.  

This is all I'am going to say. I've never tried to sound authoritive, nor did I ever claim to be any type of authority on the knowledge of the scene at the time(I think my first post made that clear). I think that's what the problem is, you somehow interperted a speculation into the mind of Giant Baba as me putting it off as a fact. It was a bad rushed poorly written post, with a incorrect fact. But according to Ricky its debateably so I don't know.

 

The only person acting authoriative is you, and since you know more than me about the scene, I think your entitled to. But acting authoriative can be easily be interrupted as acting like an asshole. Which is how I innerrupted it.

 

And nobody said Kawada/Misawa was the root of the All Japan's problem. Ricky asked why was it so disappointing and people provided their feedback and theories on that. Which may have gotting a bit off topic.

 

So your threating me? Fine I'll lose the damn picture, there are plenty others. And when I get called in asshole on a messageboard, I take that as a complement. I don't threaten people for crying out loud. GEEEZZZZZ!

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Hmm...

 

On the issue of Kawada's big win being put off, I never had the opinion that it was the only problem. However, as with many things, little problems pile up over time and create bigger problems, lead to a downward spiral effect. My including that question in the paragraph was just me throwing out random examples of what I was curious about.

 

As for the Liger issue, every wrestler has a certain amount of drawing power, and what degree Liger's was is debatable, but to a point. Remarkable for a Junior doesn't neccesarily mean remarkable for a wrestler. Chris is right; M-Pro promoting along with NJ had never been done before, Sumo Hall is New Japan's home turf, and the concept of a Junior tourniment featuring the best from Japan did draw well at the time. The fact that Liger participated isn't really significant.

[Guest Black Tiger]

Did the J-Cup sell out? It was held on the same night as the 1994 Champions Carnival Finals, I know the CC Finals were a sell out in Nippon Budokan.

[Guest Jubuki]

Yeah, it was the usual 11,500 at Sumo for them. Not really hard to do, if you think about the fact that Budokan's 14000+ and NJ packed in 64000+ regularly for the Dome. Tokyo can support 2 big gates on one night, no problem - it's the little guys running the same night that get hammered.