What would you rate Benoit/RVD from Raw?

[Guest Brian]

See the thing is that's not really the point of his moveset, and he's never gone out of his way outside of his moveset to work the ribs, or even use a submission or wear-down hold in a convincing enough fashion to make people think that he's working the ribs. It's just too much of a leap of faith for me.

 

I liked the stall sessions at the start. It makes you think this match is going to be different, it's going to be something special.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Exactly. You can't just do lots of splash variations and call it rib psychology. Rob has plenty of kicks that work the head, and he uses those just like his splashes; random flashy offense that wears down his opponent. If he used a headlocke after doing a kick, or just kicked to the ribs after using Rolling Thunder, it could be spun as psychology, but as it is, that's just signature offense.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

" bps21, RVD's improvement from "complete tripe" to "enjoyable worker" is obvious, but he obviously still has room to improve, especially if he wants to be the kind of guy that never talks but stays over because he can have good matches"

 

 

I agree. However...when I look at Austin and HHH and how much they declined...RVD's improvement just stands out to me.

 

 

 

" RVD breaking the crossface twice was what soured this match for me. At least the first time it made sense, as he used his free leg to drag them across to the ropes, but the second time was just ridiculous: he frees his arm from the leglock and then uses them to rip the hold off? Benoit should be winning cleanly with the CF every week to build him up as a top tier contender."

 

Then you didn't like the story they were trying to tell. Even JR who doesn't call matches anymore made a note that Benoit couldn't beat RVD with the crossface. If this were a one time match then I'd agree with you...however it won't be...not with the way the first match went. And the crossface is a big part of this feud now.

 

 

"I didn't like the stall session at the start much either."

 

sigh...

 

it was so short that no one would complain if it wasn't RVD. Also...it gave the match a bigger feel IMO

[Guest RickyChosyu]

Then you didn't like the story they were trying to tell. Even JR who doesn't call matches anymore made a note that Benoit couldn't beat RVD with the crossface. If this were a one time match then I'd agree with you...however it won't be...not with the way the first match went. And the crossface is a big part of this feud now.

What HoganMadeWrestling was trying to point out is that it's rather pointless to have Benoit go out there and work the arm forever to set up his big finish if that finish is going to be shit all over at the end of the match. It's a cop out. Either make the finisher mean something or just drop it altogether, because it doesn't do RVD any good to shrug off a move that isn't respected to begin with, and it sure as hell doesn't do Benoit any good to have a meaningless finisher.

[Guest Just call me Dan]

Here's my two cents.

 

I give the match ***3/4

 

It was a very solid match and it flowed really well.

 

I don't like working on a body part only to have it not factor into a finish. The psychology was there and I think RVD did OK selling it, but it had nothing to do with the finish.

 

That had to be one of the worst crowds ever. I hope the WWE never goes back there for a big show because everyone shit on what the WWE gave them, bastards really hurt the match.

 

The blown spot should have been handled with RVD selling it as well and then trying to PIN and Benoit kick out because it took so long. They both just kind of got up. I would have liked that better and maybe a close false finish like that would have sparked the crowd a little for the rest of the match.

 

Very good outing for both ment and it has been RVD's best match on free TV this year, IMO. The rematch should deliver because they meshed rather well.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

If you want to get picky...then it's Benoit's fault for working the arm when he knew the finish.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

If you want to get picky...then it's Benoit's fault for working the arm when he knew the finish.

No, because the arm work still added intrigue because it would logically lead to a crossface attempt. If Benoit had worked the leg the entire match, I could see your point, but setting up for your finisher can't be considered totally worthless, even if that isn't the actual finish.

[Guest Flyboy]

I don't like working on a body part only to have it not factor into a finish. The psychology was there and I think RVD did OK selling it, but it had nothing to do with the finish.

I'd have to disagree... it DID have something to do with the finish. It told the story of after ALL Benoit's working on the arm.. after putting RVD in the Crippler Crossface TWICE, he still couldn't get RVD to tap to it.

 

Told a great story, IMHO.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

" No, because the arm work still added intrigue because it would logically lead to a crossface attempt. If Benoit had worked the leg the entire match, I could see your point, but setting up for your finisher can't be considered totally worthless, even if that isn't the actual finish. "

 

 

I'm speaking directly to the comment of not having the arm play into the finish.

 

You can't have it both ways.

[Guest Goodear]

See the thing is that's not really the point of his moveset, and he's never gone out of his way outside of his moveset to work the ribs, or even use a submission or wear-down hold in a convincing enough fashion to make people think that he's working the ribs. It's just too much of a leap of faith for me.

I don't get this. So if Rob doesn't lock on a abdominal streach its not psychology? Thats not his style of wrestling and really shouldn't be. He consistently uses a series of high impact moves all in the same general area of his opponent's body, for that he deserve kudos. Christ knows you can't say the same thing about Chris Jericho, whose offence is all over the damn map. Anyway, it's Van Dam's opponents' job to sell that as a bit of continual punishment to the same area, not Rob's to kick them there again to remind them to sell it.

[Guest bps "The Truth" 21]

hmm...now I'm torn.

 

He does direct alot of moves at the ribs...

 

The shoulder thrust in the corners, his 2 rolling thunders, his split legged moonsault, and his finisher is directly on them.

 

People should sell it like that.

[Guest cabbageboy]

Actually I do recall a match with the Rock on Raw where RVD focused almost everything on the ribs, I'm talking about precise kicks to the ribs and everything, not just the usual rolling thunder stuff.

 

The most psychology in an RVD match I've seen in the WWF was against Jericho last year. Jericho did the same shoulder work that Benoit did. At the end when RVD went for the 5 Star he winced a bit as he leapt to the top rope, which was a nice touch.

 

I swear once RVD gets a firm grasp of wrestling psychology the man will be Keanu Reeves at the end of the Matrix.....he'll be hard to hold.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I don't get this.  So if Rob doesn't lock on a abdominal streach its not psychology?  Thats not his style of wrestling and really shouldn't be.  He consistently uses a series of high impact moves all in the same general area of his opponent's body, for that he deserve kudos.  Christ knows you can't say the same thing about Chris Jericho, whose offence is all over the damn map.  Anyway, it's Van Dam's opponents' job to sell that as a bit of continual punishment to the same area, not Rob's to kick them there again to remind them to sell it.

Again, there is more than one way to work a body part. Rob's shoulder thrusts are the only thing aside from the splash variations that work the ribs, and that's not enough. Not by a long shot. Rob treats all of his moves the same, in that they're all signature spots to him. The spin kick and the rotating leg drop both hit the neck region, does that mean Rob has been working the neck all this time, too? No, because Rob never tries to make them have any more meaning within the match than "flashy spot" and that's why his rib attacks don't work either. He disperces his spots randomly through out the match with no indication that he's actually trying to work to a specific direction other than keeping the guy down long enough to hit the frog splash.

 

It is Rob's job to use is offense in a way that the fans and his opponents know what he's doing, because that's what a wrestler's job is.

 

And yes, there have been a few times when his opponents have made it a point to sell their ribs or back, and in those cases Rob did attempt to use moves/holds that worked over that part, but the same issue came up because the moves he had been using as simply "signature spots" were now working over a body part, and had it not been for Rob's opponents selling their ribs after his splashes and presses, no one would have thought it was anything special. Rob never made anyone care about those moves as attacks on the ribs, so when he suddenly wanted them to mean something, it fell flat.

[Guest Austin3164life]

A solid ***

That's what I thought of the match. I would have given it a higher rating if the pace of the match increased (and there wasn't that botched Frog Splash spot). Other than that, it entertained me and I certainly enjoyed it. Although it did not live up to my expectations, I expect better and much more compelling bouts from these two in the near future.

[Guest Brian]

"I swear once RVD gets a firm grasp of wrestling psychology the man will be Keanu Reeves at the end of the Matrix.....he'll be hard to hold."

 

And like Reeves, will he still be a bad actor? Sorry, old drama class joke.

 

Well, if you want to get really technical it's the agent's fault for really putting them in that position. Anyways, didn't Benoit break the roll-up through the bad arm that he revervsed into the final pin?

[Guest Brian]

I just Re-watched the finish on WWE.com. RVD breaks it, tries a headlock into a roll-up of sorts, but Benoit squirms out first through the bad arm, pins him only holding down the good arm, and uses the ropes for more leverage. Really subtle.

[Guest notJames]

I just Re-watched the finish on WWE.com. RVD breaks it, tries a headlock into a roll-up of sorts, but Benoit squirms out first through the bad arm, pins him only holding down the good arm, and uses the ropes for more leverage. Really subtle.

That's what I thought last night, too. In fact, I think JR alluded to it also, though I might be wrong.

 

Ergo, the arm work did factor into the finish. Of course, you'd have to look really hard to see it. And I'm pretty sure it would escape your average fan.

[Guest Brian]

He still broke out through the bad arm, so it wasn't totally inconspicuous.

[Guest LesnarLunatic]

I date it **3/4

 

RVD should have sold his arm more. It breaks kayfabe if he is doing backflips after his shoulder is "hanging by a thread"

 

Plus, if RVD's shoulder was hurt, he shouldn't have been able to escape the crossface, he should have passed out in it or something.

 

The ending was bullshit, it doesn't make Benoit look like that legit of a champion.

[Guest Austin3164life]

All it does is revert him back to the Cereberal Heel that he once was last year.

[Guest redbaron51]

*** 1/2

 

it was a good match but the lack of high spots (little different) and a very um...shady finish for the match i couldn't give it higher than what i am giving it right now

[Guest cabbageboy]

Does anyone kinda get the overriding theme involved in these Benoit or Eddie vs. RVD matches? In a typical wrestling match, Guerrero and Benoit have the upper hand due to their superior knowledge of the mat, so they end up getting sneaky wins. Eventually RVD got Eddie in a ladder match where he was able to use his strengths and prevail. He'll job to Beniot for a while in regular matches, but then will finally get him in a ladder match or HIAC where he'll win.

[Guest Retro Rob]

The match was very good, but I agree that RVD could have done a better job selling the arm. I was cringing each time he would land on it and just get back up. I don't really see what is so hard about selling. The entire match was based on Benoit tearing about RVD's shoulder, yet RVD somehow completly forgets this during his comeback. I don't think selling during his comeback would have taken away from it. Many wrestlers have been able to do that in the past.

 

The real issue here isn't with RVD, it's with wrestling in general. Very few wrestlers properly sell for an entire match. It's about time the WWE re-teaches it's wrestlers the art of selling. Many independent wrestlers are able to sell quite well, so why can't the guys who are making the big bucks?

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Forget about working his legs because he'll no sell that as he hops to the top rope to do his frog splash.

[Guest Flyboy]

Forget about working his legs because he'll no sell that as he hops to the top rope to do his frog splash.

He will?

 

Damn.. I must have missed RVD/Storm where Storm worked on RVD's legs causing him NOT to be able to "hop to" the top rope.

[Guest godthedog]

i'd give it **1/2 or **3/4. selling issues aside, it just didn't seem to click between these 2 for me. i never got into the flow of it, it seemed like they were just going through the motions and not really feeling each other out. everything looked good (except that weird frog splash), but...i dunno, the pieces just didn't quite gel together like they should have.

 

reminded me of the benoit/trips match, where the leg/arm work was supposed to tie the match together as a whole, but i still got the feeling that the match was a little choppy.

 

then again, the wwF style makes it hard for a match to really flow between guys. everything has to look so clean cut that guys aren't really allowed to fight over holds and moves. it just goes *punch punch punch-big move-punch punch punch-dodge into another big move*. but i've been watching a whole lot of flair/steamboat lately, so maybe i'm just spoiled.

[Guest I Fear Hogans Air Guitair]

I just gotta a chance to watch it and it was a solid *** 1/2 match it could have been better if not for a few botched spots. As for RVD not selling I Disagree RVD sold during the moves which is good enough for me. If they booked these two on every house show together they could gel so well and produce **** to **** 1/2 Classic Matches. Also RVD not Taping to the Crossface after all the shoulder work was smart it made Rob look like a true fighting Champion although this is how it should of ended. RVD With the Rolling Thunder hurts his shoulder when he hits. While RVD's Back is facing Beniot's Chest Beniot Rolls RVD all the way over on to his stomach apply's the crossface after 3 minuets RVD Passes out from the pain.

 

Oh and Flyboys your comment rocked Damn.. I must have missed RVD/Storm where Storm worked on RVD's legs causing him NOT to be able to "hop to" the top rope. I Remeber that so much for your post pinnacleofallthingsmanly.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I remember him hopping to the top rope, then halfheartedly grabbing his leg before doing the frog splash.

[Guest RickyChosyu]

I just gotta a chance to watch it and it was a solid *** 1/2 match it could have been better if not for a few botched spots. As for RVD not selling I Disagree RVD sold during the moves which is good enough for me. If they booked these two on every house show together they could gel so well and produce **** to **** 1/2 Classic Matches. Also RVD not Taping to the Crossface after all the shoulder work was smart it made Rob look like a true fighting Champion although this is how it should of ended. RVD With the Rolling Thunder hurts his shoulder when he hits. While RVD's Back is facing Beniot's Chest Beniot Rolls RVD all the way over on to his stomach apply's the crossface after 3 minuets RVD Passes out from the pain.

So RVD selling only when Benoit forced him to is good enough? He acted like his arm was broken and then forgot about it. Bad selling.

 

How does it make him look like a fighting Champion? One person has actually tapped to that hold since Benoit came back, and before that it was disrespected left and right. Trying to escape the hold by outsmarting Benoit would have made RVD look better for outworking a technician like Chris and would have put over the hold as something to be reckoned with. As of now, it's hardly anything, since he worked the entire match to set it up and then got no where with it. And the "pass out" ending should only be done occasionally because when you over-do it, the meaning is completely lost. When Austin did in '97 it meant something, but if it happens constantly on free TV it just becomes corny and over-done.

[Guest Your Olympic Hero]

It was good for a Raw match.