What should we do in the mideast?

[Guest EricMM]

This was supposed to be a poll, but I decided that I couldn't think of enough possible answers for everyone.

 

So list your own solution. And I'm talking the whole kit 'n kaboodle, Israel, Iraq, Iran? Afghanista, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia.

 

I mean should we go in and pacifiy a nation of Arabs? Should we equip Israel hardcore and let them do it for us? Should we wash our hands of the whole situation and start importing oil from South America?

 

I have heard a million theories. Some people want to abandon Israel because they stole their land from the Arabs. Some people want to go into the Radioactive Glass industry.

 

Personally, I would LOVE to get some sort of resolution going. I would love for the S. Bombs to stop first, the settlements to stop second, and the whole situation to become as peaceful as US and Mexico. If that means that our presence is needed and it will work, well I wonder if our place is really there to begin with. I don't really want to send U.S. Boys and Girls to be shot at. BUT if it will calm some of the hatred of the area in the next generation, it would help lower the chances of another terrorist tragedy...

 

Argh someone post a decent response I'm so lost

[Guest J*ingus]

Part One: find the people who manufacture the suicide bombs and strap them onto brainwashed kamikaze teenagers, and put bullets through their brains. Then come back and try for another round of peace talks.

[Guest MrRant]

There are 2 options.

 

The easy way - Kill all the terrorists/sucide bombers.

 

The hard way- Try to negotiate with them even though they don't listen.

 

I vote for the easy way. But hey I'm just lazy.

[Guest NotSuper]

Hit the terrorists before they hit us. Show them the terror of a pissed off USA. We should support our allies but not get involved in religious wars.

[Guest DrTom]

Some good steps to take:

 

1. Stop buying oil from the Middle East, particularly Saudi Arabia. Alberta and Russia would love to sell us oil, we have plenty in reserve, and we can always buy from South American countries, too.

 

2. Attack Iraq as planned, then do the same in Saudi Arabia.

 

3. Double all monetary support to Israel, offically get off of Arafat's dick and call him the thug and terrorist that he is, and demand the PLO hand over those responsible for the library bombing. If they refuse, kill the PLO and their staunchest supporters.

 

Those are the first three things that come to mind.

[Guest big Dante Cruz]

I get the idea that just supporting Israel's self defense actions would be a big point to the rest of the world. PLO? Don't screw with 'em. If you do, we want them to come after you. The rest of the world? Get off Israel's back. You'd do the same thing. But that's just me.

[Guest danielisthor]

1.) Stop depending on foreign oil. period. Use our own resources. We are the greatest country to ever put a mark in history and we are nearly completely reliant on Oil from a part of the world that wants us dead. WTF. There is oil in Alaska, there is oil in the Gulf of Mexico. Its ours we should be doing all we can to exploit it. We can also be trying to find alternate energy sources.

 

2.) Isreal & Palestine - Isreal has just as much right to the land as the Palestinians. We should stop giving the Israelies money which equates out to 13,000 dollars per citizen, which is not much less then what we pay our young men and women in our military. I don't mind suppling weapons, but not the money. Arafat needs to go, secretly in the night, never to be seen again. homicide bombers are not suicide, they are an an abomination of the entire human race, like Hitler and Pot and need to be stopped. I have no problem with Isreal going in with tanks and helicopters every time one of these idiot bombers blows up a bus with woman and children.

 

Saudia Arabia - pull out our military forces and watch it crumble. If not for us, the ruling family would have been masacred long ago.

 

Iraq and Iran - both have been long time enemies of themselves and ours. They need to be eliminated, either by us or amongst themselves.

 

Afghanistan - Does anybody else know that we are the only country throughout history that has humbled this nation? Russia, imperalist Britian, the Romans, and Huns all tried and failed. We succeeded. Why, because they allowed one man under their protection to fuck with us. And we took them out, without the use of the BOMB.

 

Pakistan - They are educating future Osama Bin Laden's in their schools and universities with anti-american classes. The Taliban and Al-Queda thought they could hide here and probably are. Terrorists also hide here and attack India. So they harbor terrorists as well. Though the new "President" seems Pro-American, i think its tedious at best. Its an area to "watch".

 

France - fuck the French. They are both Anti-Isreal and Anti-American. this really has nothing to do with this topic but i thought i could add it in.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Interestingly, we really aren't overly reliant on Arab oil anymore. The situation's different now; even if all the Arab imports stopped tomorrow, the kind of 400% increase in gas prices we saw in the '70s wouldn't occur. Back then, the overwhelming majority of our imports were from OPEC - something like 70% or so. Now I think it's only 13-15%. Canada, Venezuela, and Russia would love to sell us even more than they do already.

 

France - fuck the French. They are both Anti-Isreal and Anti-American.

Actually, the French people like America just fine, and over three-quarters support the war against terrorists. Same goes for pretty much all of Europe. It's just that it's always been fashionable for European leaders and intellectuals to decry American "simplisme" and sniff haughtily whenever we exert a power they can no longer hope to match. It's the only way they can convince themselves they're still superior to us.

[Guest Powerplay]

Well, on the Oil in Alaska comment, from what I've heard, geologists tend to think that there isn't much oil there to have any effect on our oil supply. Plus, I rather keep Alaska as the one pristine natural area of the US for as long as humanly possible. The oil companies have stirred away from it simply because the predicted amount of oil there isn't worth the hassle. If Dubya won't drill in the Everglades because of his brother, then he seriously has no business in the ANWR. We should seriously look into alternate sources of power, like electric and hydrogen-powered cars (And they do have a hydrogen-powered car prototype working right now).

 

Israel and Palestine- I take the democracy over the dicatorship anyday. Palestine needs some new leadership that will be ready to meet halfway with the Israelis. Their whole government needs to be seriously gutted. Barak, during the Clinton administration, put a very fair plan across Arafat's desk, and Arafat just dropped the ball. Effectively he missed one of the best deals for Palestine ever and killed what could have been the only redeeming factor of the Clinton Administration (A Middle East Peace Treaty).

 

Saudi Arabia- I haven't ever really liked the Saudis. We go there to defend them and they act like they are doing us the favor. They still have an insanely rich Monarchy and their citizens are still pretty poor. A pull out would be good. Or maybe we can start a monopoly on foods with Argentina, Canada, and Australia (FOODPEC. Hell yeah) and start charging them money like they do to us for gas.

 

Iraq- Already discussed this a lot, but IMO, we should buy Iraq's debts from Russia, ask them to pay up, and if they don't go headcracking like gangbusters. After that, set up a provisional government and go about improving the standard of life for the people.

 

Iran- From everything I hear, they've been improving in relations with us over the last 5 or so years. Although Dubya included him in the "Axis of Evil" (Which was still a stupid mistake. NK was just coming to terms with SK and Iran was becoming warm to us. Bad PR Stunt) I think we will be able to improve relations with them even more.

 

Pakistan- Keep them from fighting over Kashmir as long as possible, otherwise Nuclear War could be a very real threat. Vagabond, THIS is precisely why I don't want Iraq to have weapons of mass destruction. We've had the bomb for almost 60 years and only used it to end the greatest war in history. Pakistan gets it and immediately threatens to use it on India.

 

Afganistan- We are doing all we can here. No probs from me. Oh yeah, reason the reason why Russia fail was not because of the Afgan fighters, but of their own command structure. They follow their orders to a tee, and they don't do ANYTHING unless their commander says so first. So when the Afgans ambush them, they kill the commander, and the Russians wouldn't follow because they would have to radio another higher up. By the time they did get orders, the Afgans were gone. Had the Russians had a more flexible chain of command they would have went to school on the Afgans.

 

And since France is now part of the Middle East...

 

France- Have Space Ghost destroy it and come back later to haunt him in a lawsuit. Comic hysteria ensues. Ah Cie la Vie.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Conservative (as in low-key, not political) estimates put the Alaskan reserves at 18 billion barrels, all of which we could extract without affecting more than 3% of the ANWR. They may only bring in a million barrels a day tomorrow, but if we develop next-generation extraction methods for shale (which we could, easily, in five years), we're looking at absolutely unimaginable amounts on federal land in Utah, Wyoming, and Colorado, not to mention offshore drilling. The total is estimated to be over a trillion barrels - more than enough for two and a half centuries at current consumption rates, which have remained more or less steady for decades while production went up - our fuel efficiency increases every day. We're swimming in oil. All we have to do is invest five years in development to get it.

 

Naming Iran as part of an axis of evil wasn't stupid at all; it was necessary and it was true. Furthermore, ordinary Iranians know it's true - just like ordinary Russians knew Reagan was telling the truth when he called the Soviet Union "the evil empire." The improvement in US-Iran relations over the last few years has been largely cosmetic and extremely fragile. The President seems to have his head screwed on straight, but he has almost no real power. The Council of Guardians and the Ayatollah can and do overrule him whenever they please. Iran is not a country that will ease into democracy and warm relations with the West. The only way it will become a democracy is through the use of force, whether internal or external - this may be unfortunate but it is true. Radical Islam and a revelatory, unquestionable form of government do not allow for self-correction. Coddling them and pretending they're nice while they're holding state-sponsored rallies and shouting "Death to America, death to the Great Satan" will not change that.

[Guest Pilgrim]

To be honest with you I just have one point to make. Marney said that most Europeans support the war on terrorism and to a point that is right. But if the USA does invade Iraq without a UN mandate then you can expect to see very little support from Europe, not that you need it militarily.

 

I'm not saying that Sadamn should be left in power, by all rights he should of been taken out a long time ago. However when you combine this with other issues like the Kyoto treaty and the international court of justice and you'll find that your running out of allies.

 

Over here in Britain Blair is taking a lot of flack because he is trying to bridge the gap between Europe and the US. I just think that this should be taken into consideration when you talk about invading Iraq, Saudi, Iran etc.

 

Ok so make that 2 points. The Israel palestine problem will never be solved until the palestinians are given their own independant country. Personally i beleive that a major chance for peace was lost 2 years ago and with the amount of blood spilt and with the present leader of Israel in power i honestly can't see an end to the conflict in sight.

[Guest Powerplay]

Conservative (as in low-key, not political) estimates put the Alaskan reserves at 18 billion barrels, all of which we could extract without affecting more than 3% of the ANWR. They may only bring in a million barrels a day tomorrow, but if we develop next-generation extraction methods for shale (which we could, easily, in five years), we're looking at absolutely unimaginable amounts on federal land in Utah, Wyoming, and Colorado, not to mention offshore drilling. The total is estimated to be over a trillion barrels - more than enough for two and a half centuries at current consumption rates, which have remained more or less steady for decades while production went up - our fuel efficiency increases every day. We're swimming in oil. All we have to do is invest five years in development to get it.

 

Naming Iran as part of an axis of evil wasn't stupid at all; it was necessary and it was true. Furthermore, ordinary Iranians know it's true - just like ordinary Russians knew Reagan was telling the truth when he called the Soviet Union "the evil empire." The improvement in US-Iran relations over the last few years has been largely cosmetic and extremely fragile. The President seems to have his head screwed on straight, but he has almost no real power. The Council of Guardians and the Ayatollah can and do overrule him whenever they please. Iran is not a country that will ease into democracy and warm relations with the West. The only way it will become a democracy is through the use of force, whether internal or external - this may be unfortunate but it is true. Radical Islam and a revelatory, unquestionable form of government do not allow for self-correction. Coddling them and pretending they're nice while they're holding state-sponsored rallies and shouting "Death to America, death to the Great Satan" will not change that.

Still, on principle I would like to see ANWR remain untouched by any civilization. I dunno why, but I just feel that that should be the last purely untouched bastion of nature in America. I feel that's what was intended when it was created and that's how I would like to see it remain. And the million barrels a day could be reached just as easily by raising the standards for fuel efficiency higher by only one or two miles. And that would help us in the long run as well.

 

The shale idea is good, but I still think we should research new renewable sources like hydrogen and electricity.

 

On Iran, I remember the rallies afterward were against Bush because they were angry that they were named an "Evil" state. I'd be pissed to if France called us a "Bully State" who "Abused it's power on the World Stage" or something like that. And just because there are extremists hold rallies doesn't mean that the mass majority of Iranians are hateful toward the U.S. If we were judge by our extremists, the world would think we were full of White Supremicists and Commies. Just because the Aryan Nation holds a hate rally in public doesn't mean the public is fully behind them. Normal people who hold decent, non-hateful views on the U.S. just don't hold massive rallies all the time. Yes, it may have been fragile, but it takes time to build good relations. I'm not saying that we should submit to their every whim, but we should try to work together and build trust between the two countries. Relationships have to start sometime, somewhere, and what better time and place than now? Ya know, babysteps. Babysteps.

 

And you didn't mention North Korea. Did you agree with me on that one?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

I'd be pissed to if France called us a "Bully State" who "Abused it's power on the World Stage" or something like that

They do that several times a day. I'm used to it; it's just background noise.

 

just because there are extremists hold rallies doesn't mean that the mass majority of Iranians are hateful toward the U.S

I don't think they are. Problem is, the majority of Iranians has absolutely no say in the government. The minority which does has to go, one way or another. Which was my point.

 

I didn't see anything in your post directly concerning North Korea. If you said that we should've killed that miserable greasy little rat-fuck sonofabitch Kim Jong Il years ago and found a General MacArthur to get the country back on its feet and actually feed the people something other than grass, yup, then I agree.

[Guest Powerplay]

Being pretty knowledgeable in the history area, I fully agree that we should haved bombed beyond the Yalu, just as Mac Arthur wanted to. We shouldn't have left Korea without taking out the North Korean communist regieme. Of course, Truman chickened out of the idea. But hindsight is 20/20 and we can't change the past so what we should have done doesn't hold any relevence. But given the current circumstances, the South Koreans and the North Koreans were beginning to talk to when he named NK, and then the NK stopped talking.

 

France is a bad example. Infact, for us there is no example. We are the most powerful country hands down. It's easy for us to brush off critizism like that. Bitch all you want, world, but our military is the most powerful out there. We don't need to care what they say, but we do because pissing random people off isn't the American way. But for a country like Iran who is just starting to try and be accepted on the international level, us calling them that is something that can really piss them off.

 

I'm sure the that calling the nation of Iran part of the "Axis of Evil" didn't do any good with the people of Iran, either. If we, through our relations and example can put the pressure on the people to change, so they can spark the internal forces of change you were talking about. Also, including them with Iraq, one of their most hated enemies, in a lineup doesn't improve their opinion of us. If we can't reach the Ayatollah and the Council of Guardians, we are going to have to appeal to the people of Iran. Again, even though our relationship with them was fragile, it was a start. We could have built on it. If we didn't effect the feel of the government, we could have showed the people that we aren't evil and that our way of life isn't evil.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

We can't show them anything when a bunch of mullahs maintains absolute control over all print and electronic media. The people of Iran don't hate America. The mullahs do, and until the mullahs are gone, nothing we say can possibly make any difference whatsoever. The fragility was institutional - it wasn't backed by the will of the people; it was backed by their oppressors. Dealing with them, coddling them, and lying about their nature won't endear us to the people. Build trust? Build relationships? Baby steps? How, when the Council annuls in a day informal treaties the President has to construct through back channels over months?

[Guest TJH]

I'd be getting US troops out of Saudi now. If they refuse to support an invasion, why would you bother having troops there? And the Saudi government does all it can to get the people to hate America so it can deflect blame from itself.

 

Israel needs something along the lines of the Berlin wall. Lets face it, the Berlin Wall worked, as no one escaped from East Germany. It makes life very easy. The day the US stops backing Israel is the day that, well, that would be a shameful day for the US.

 

Iran isn't much much of a threat. They aren't that bad anymore.

 

Iraq....I honestly don't know. I think if regime change is to happen without a lot of pain to the U.S, it has to come from within. Obviously a war would be easily won, but what comes after is much more difficult.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Iran isn't much much of a threat. They aren't that bad anymore.

It's a toss-up. The mullahs, who still have all the power, are just as bad as ever. The people are less willing to knuckle under, and keener than ever for a liberal Western-style democracy, but all that means right now is that more of them get intimidated, jailed, tortured, and killed.

[Guest TJH]

It's a toss-up. The mullahs, who still have all the power, are just as bad as ever. The people are less willing to knuckle under, and keener than ever for a liberal Western-style democracy, but all that means right now is that more of them get intimidated, jailed, tortured, and killed.

Yeah, thats true, but there isn't much point America going in. Things are gradually changing, and interfering with that process is like pouring petrol on a smouldering fire.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

That's the only way anything will ever change. Someone has to pour the petrol. Might as well be us. Same with Iraq.

[Guest TJH]

The flame of Islamic Fundamentalism is dying in Iran. There is no way you should pour petrol on it.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

The flame of Islamic Fundamentalism is dying in Iran.

Bullshit. You simply don't know what you're talking about. Those who keep the flame burning have both hands on the bellows and are pumping harder than ever. When were you last in Iran? I visited the country four years ago, and I can assure you that although the undercurrent of discontent among the common people has increased, it has done absolutely nothing to loosen the grip of the Islamic clerics. They've simply clamped down even more. The people have no recourse, no haven, and no power. Street demonstrations are suppressed with a brutality that makes Tiananmen Square look like a boy scout picnic. The violence is no less effective for being more targeted and more covert.

HRW report

 

Leaving the country alone won't help the miserable people being imprisoned, tortured, and executed for speaking their minds. A few dozen bullets between the eyes of a few dozen fundamentalist terrorists will.

[Guest TJH]

Well, the same argument could be named for any number of places.

China, North Korea, Sudan, Vietnam, Libya, Zimbabwe etc.

The point is, things will change eventually. I don't see any reason to risk US lives for...for what?

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Huh? Vietnam's not that bad. I forget what's going on in Sudan and Zimbabwe, though.

I don't see any reason to risk US lives for...for what?

Fair enough. There are more important things on the agenda than Iran. I just don't think it's going to change peacefully or entirely on its own.

[Guest Chris "the chin"]

Hey Marney,

 

Thought Id drop by to see whats goin on now that CGonline is a dead zone. I see you're up to your usual shenanigans.

 

Anyway, here are my own thoughts on our dear friends in the Middle East.

 

1. The Palestinian Question

 

Israel has totally hamstrung us in the Middle East and undercut our war on terrorism using it as an excuse to stomp on the Palestinians. I have no love for the Palestinians (or anybody else really) but lets face facts, if there was no Israel we would get our gas cheap with none of these hassles. One might even argue that if we had no involvement with Israel there would have been no Bin Laden and no Sept. 11th.

 

But I wouldn't...thats just silly.

 

In this country complaining about Israel is like complaining about it being hot in the desert. It doesn't change anything. Plus it might get you buried neck deep in the sand.

 

We are stuck with them.

 

So what can we do? Well, Bush outlined the creation of the Palestinian state recently. That seems like a good idea. Maybe if we give them a state they would shut the hell up.

 

But can we make that happen? Yes, but I think we need to pressure Israel like we've never pressured them before. They are going to have to make some concessions. One of them is that Isreal needs to stop building the settlements. Now. The settlements undermined the last peace accord and will continue to undermine every accord in the future. The U.S. should hint at denying them military aid if necessary to get them to stop building.

 

We shouldn't actually do it, but we should at least try to play a little hard ball here to get some movement...and maybe salvage some pride because we have totally been Israel's bitch during this administration. Sorry Marney...I know you're not goin to like me saying that.

 

By the way, if you are pro Israel and you just read what I said above I'm sure you're ready to shit. Don't worry, Bush will never play hardball with Israel, because he knows if he tried it he would be impeached. Israel will get everything it's way.

 

With the Palestinians we should try the carrot approach. Promise them all jobs and free taco's from taco bell for a year or something. The stick doesn't seem to be working.

 

My Totally Uneducated Prediction: 7 to 9 years for a Palestinian state without Jerusalem as the capital. 10 to 12 thousand more killed in the interim while everyone farts around.

 

2. Afghanistan

 

It's already starting to slip. Bush made a serious error by not committing to peacekeepers and a larger American force there. Sure, nobody likes the idea of U.S. men and women serving in that hostile country but to make a permenant change their we have to bite the bullet and do some real nation building. If we don't Bin Laden and the Taliban will be right back in power there. And if that happens what was the whole point of the war?

 

My Totally Uneducated Prediction: Within 10 years Afghanistan returns to being a hopeless shithole that harbors the scum of the earth.

 

3. Our Arab "Allies"

 

They suck. They kiss our ass when we're looking and the second we turn our back the knives come out. Their leaders are dictators. We should be forcing democratic change in those nations.

 

My Totally Uneducated Prediction: we don't do anything. We let the dictators stay in power.

 

4. Our European "Allies"

 

Except for England they suck. And they're pussies to boot. We should do our best to keep them happy but at the end of the day we have to do what's in our best interest and not theirs.

 

Today that means we have to go kick some serious ass.

 

My Totally Uneducated Prediction: Sorry Saddam...

 

4. Iraq

 

If we do this we can't halfass it like it we're doing in Afghanistan. We have to do what we did in Japan and Germany. That means a 10 year committment to build a rock solid democratic state. Nothing would go further to forcing democratic change in the region than having a successful democratic state of the size and economic strength of Iraq.

 

Combined with a Palestinian state we might have that region sewn up finally. Yeah right....

 

My Totally Uneducated Prediction: We will totally and completely crush, annihilate, obliterate, and generally spank Iraq in a war and then halfass the nation building. Our allies will shit, but our economy will actually surge so we won't give a crap. The war on terrorism drags on like the war on drugs...for an eternity.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

Heya Chris! Welcome to the Smarks board. Glad to see you.

 

1. I don't think Israel was the cause of 9/11 at all. Prior to his recent telecasts bin Laden had never mentioned the Palestinians even once - just like he'd never mentioned the Kashimiris. It was just a convenient excuse to get the Moslems riled up. As for Israel using 9/11 as an "excuse," I don't see that at all. Israel is about the only country which can credibly compare their suffering to ours. They're being attacked for who they are, not what they do, by murderous fundamentalist Moslems who deliberately and systematically target innocent civilians. Proportionally, over time, they've lost more people than we did on 9/11.

I think they should stop building settlements because they're provocative and unnecessary. Still, it's undeniable that Israel has an absolute right to the land. They're willing to give it up nevertheless, and I think that speaks volumes about them.

I agree with your prediction, but I don't think gas prices are or would be affected one bit by anything we do in the region. We get very little oil from the Middle East now, as I noted earlier in this thread, and we could eliminate our imports from that region entirely if we had to.

 

2. Prediction: possibly. I hope it doesn't happen. My own prediction is that it will struggle for a few years, perhaps come close to collapse, get propped up once or twice, and eventually become a responsible country - assuming that we continue to invest in education, peacekeeping, and disarmament efforts. I'd put my scenario ahead of yours in probability, but not by much - just within the margin of error.

 

3. Yup. Stop supporting the Saudis now. We don't need them.

Prediction: I hope you're wrong, but I think you're right. Then again, there has been a lot of open anger with Saudi Arabia recently, even in quasi-official channels, and, quietly, in official channels. Maybe we'll finally abandon the fuckers to the fate they deserve, or at the very least stop fellating them so eagerly. It's three decades later, and the world has changed. I wish we'd find the courage to accept that, and the concomitant responsibilities of power.

 

4. Yup.

 

5. (post-war Iraq) Again, I hope you're wrong, but you're probably right. In part I would guess it's culture that makes reconstruction and imposition of democratic norms more problematic in the Moslem world than it was in Germany. Japan was harder, and with the idiotic multiculturalism so prevalent these days it's unlikely in the extreme that anyone will be willing to say to the Moslems, "Our culture is better, and our way of doing things is better. You've lost a war and now you're going to do things our way. Burkas are out, bikinis are in. Public schools will not teach religion. All your laws will emanate from our Constitution, not some moldy old holy book, until we're sure that you're mature enough to write your own. You don't like it, tough. You'll thank us later. Now shut up and sit down."

 

Hey, a girl can dream.

[Guest Chris "the chin"]

Prior to his recent telecasts bin Laden had never mentioned the Palestinians even once - just like he'd never mentioned the Kashimiris. It was just a convenient excuse to get the Moslems riled up.

 

Right, but what if there was no convenient excuse? I'm not trying to argue with your here. Basically I agree with you.

 

As for Israel using 9/11 as an "excuse," I don't see that at all. Israel is about the only country which can credibly compare their suffering to ours. They're being attacked for who they are, not what they do, by murderous fundamentalist Moslems who deliberately and systematically target innocent civilians."

 

I think they are also being attacked for what they do.

 

Still, it's undeniable that Israel has an absolute right to the land. They're willing to give it up nevertheless, and I think that speaks volumes about them.

 

I don't agree that they have any sort of undeniable absolute right to the land. However, the Jews are there and they ain't leavin. That's the reality.

[Guest Cancer Marney]

If there were no Palestinian excuse, the Moslems would use Kashmir. Or Bosnia. Or Somalia. Or anything else, really. It doesn't matter. You'll note that bin Laden mentioned Palestine only after 9/11. He didn't need the excuse to murder 3000 of our people, and if he hadn't had any excuse he would still have done it. It was just something handy to say afterwards.

 

Israel isn't being attacked anywhere near as much for what she does as for what she is. Transjordan occupied much of her land for ages, the Palestinians were there then, and they didn't agitate against Hashemite rule. They don't even now, in present-day Jordan, where they comprise a majority of the population. The Palestinians are merely brainwashed tools for hostile Arab regimes. They don't want a state of their own, or rather, the people who control them don't want them to have a state of their own. They want to destroy the Jewish state.

And Israel does have an absolute right to the land: the right of conquest in a defensive war which she won decisively.

 

Quotes: hit the Quote button, paste or type the text, and then hit the Close Current Tag button.

[Guest Chris "the chin"]

And Israel does have an absolute right to the land: the right of conquest in a defensive war which she won decisively.

 

I don't believe there is such a thing as a right of conquest so we will just have to agree to disagree here.

 

Thanks for the help with the quotes.